People pulling "sources" on me to invalidate demisexuality

[borealmist]

This is why I ask, why is the word "orientation" so important? Why does a debate over whether or not demisexuality fits that definition instead of some other definition hurt you so? It doesn't change anything about who you are to call it something other than an orientation.

It hurts because everyone has an "orientation". People also use orientation and sexuality interchangeably, even sexual identity. It hurts me because people are insisting that it's not an orientation or sexuality, and that I can't identify simply as biromantic demisexual. Being told that how I identify is invalid hurts a lot, especially in a space that I thought I'd be safe in.

I can relate. Whether one assigns much value to orientation or not, the fact is that a lot of people do in ways that can affect you even if you don't care yourself.

Personally, I wanted to get in contact with a therapist with some experience in alternate sexuality so I called the local LGBT group who had sex and relationship counselling services. As this was before asexuality was even as recognized as it is now, they basically asked if I was gay or bi, but not being either they said couldn't help.

People are basically saying that it's only an "accessory" identity and means nothing by itself without an implied gender. I feel very differently. It's my orientation, my sexuality, whatever anyone wants to call it. It's my identity, but according to a majority of people, it means nothing because it doesn't explicitly indicate what gender(s) I'm sexually attracted to. I'm not primarily sexually attracted to anyone though, so why is that even relevant?

And that's pretty much where the whole orientation concept falls apart if it's limited to the 3-4 'primary' orientations. Without primary attraction, traditional orientation, for the purposes it's usually used, becomes meaningless. Anyone without primary, but with secondary attraction would sort under the asexual label, but then that label falls apart when secondary attraction kicks in and you're apparently attracted to something and suddenly have another orientation... but one where gender still might not be any more relevant than whether it's a blue alien from Tau Ceti, for all we know.

As orientation is largely considered immutable, something has to give. Either orientation needs to be expanded to encompass the complexities of alternate secondary attractions, or it will have to drop the immutability and become more or less a shifting preference to encompass things like demisexuals, or it will end up being a synonym of primary sexual attraction and simply not being relevant for any who do not fit in any of the traditional categories.

It might not be easy, but unless you want to expend a lot of energy on convincing some people, it's better to just ignore them. They can pull as many 'sources' they want, but when the sources are obviously logically inconsistent and display what is clearly a flawed model it doesn't matter what those sources say. They're quite simply demonstrably wrong.

The models will probably eventually be updated and then you get the pleasure of saying 'I told you so' in twenty or something years. Of course, telling people who are wrong on the internet 'I told you so' gets old fast...

[dalkey]

This is why I ask, why is the word "orientation" so important? Why does a debate over whether or not demisexuality fits that definition instead of some other definition hurt you so? It doesn't change anything about who you are to call it something other than an orientation.

It hurts because everyone has an "orientation". People also use orientation and sexuality interchangeably, even sexual identity. It hurts me because people are insisting that it's not an orientation or sexuality, and that I can't identify simply as biromantic demisexual. Being told that how I identify is invalid hurts a lot, especially in a space that I thought I'd be safe in.

I can relate. Whether one assigns much value to orientation or not, the fact is that a lot of people do in ways that can affect you even if you don't care yourself.

Personally, I wanted to get in contact with a therapist with some experience in alternate sexuality so I called the local LGBT group who had sex and relationship counselling services. As this was before asexuality was even as recognized as it is now, they basically asked if I was gay or bi, but not being either they said couldn't help.

People are basically saying that it's only an "accessory" identity and means nothing by itself without an implied gender. I feel very differently. It's my orientation, my sexuality, whatever anyone wants to call it. It's my identity, but according to a majority of people, it means nothing because it doesn't explicitly indicate what gender(s) I'm sexually attracted to. I'm not primarily sexually attracted to anyone though, so why is that even relevant?

And that's pretty much where the whole orientation concept falls apart if it's limited to the 3-4 'primary' orientations. Without primary attraction, traditional orientation, for the purposes it's usually used, becomes meaningless. Anyone without primary, but with secondary attraction would sort under the asexual label, but then that label falls apart when secondary attraction kicks in and you're apparently attracted to something and suddenly have another orientation... but one where gender still might not be any more relevant than whether it's a blue alien from Tau Ceti, for all we know.

As orientation is largely considered immutable, something has to give. Either orientation needs to be expanded to encompass the complexities of alternate secondary attractions, or it will have to drop the immutability and become more or less a shifting preference to encompass things like demisexuals, or it will end up being a synonym of primary sexual attraction and simply not being relevant for any who do not fit in any of the traditional categories.

It might not be easy, but unless you want to expend a lot of energy on convincing some people, it's better to just ignore them. They can pull as many 'sources' they want, but when the sources are obviously logically inconsistent and display what is clearly a flawed model it doesn't matter what those sources say. They're quite simply demonstrably wrong.

The models will probably eventually be updated and then you get the pleasure of saying 'I told you so' in twenty or something years. Of course, telling people who are wrong on the internet 'I told you so' gets old fast...

I think you've perfectly summed up why this entire debate will be never-ending, at least until the definition of orientation is altered (which is, hopefully, some day). I have no energy left to debate the validity of my orientation to people who deny is can be an orientation to begin with.

You've found a perfect way of saying (and then some) what I've been thinking, and why I've been so frustrated over this. Thank you so much.

[LH-Moth]

So this thread seems to have ironically been hijacked for orientation debate. I'm not against open minded discussion but there is a place for this and inside the thread of someone who has had their identity attacked, is hardly appropriate.

Very true and, as one of the people who got invovled in that debate, I want to offer dalkey my sincerest apologies. Lil'cake is absolutely right. While I find the discussion interesting, bringing it up in a thread specifically asking for support because of this was out of line. I'm very sorry.

While I don't personally have a Tumblr account, I've been spending increasing time on there. There are some people are on there who seem primed to launch into an attack at the slightest provacation, but I think the majority of people are interesting and I enjoy that. Also, there's a large asexual spectrum community on Tumblr, and their discussions offer a wide variety of perspectives. It's fascinating and enlightening to read. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I understand why people want to stay on Tumblr, despite all the abuse other users can (and, sadly, will) dish out.

In addition, there seem to be quite a few people who are questioning about asexual spectrum identities who access Tumblr for more information, so I hope the negativity doesn't drive away those who can help answer their questions.

Althought it's a small consolation, I have noticed that when I search the "demisexuality" tag, the content that pops up changes drastically when I switch the display from "Most Popular" to "Recent". While the latter tends to have a lot of the more hateful comments, those aren't usually the ones that come up in the "Most Popular" sort. In other words, there may be lots of people posting nasty things about demisexuals, but those aren't the ones that other people are choosing to share. Like I said, it's small, but I find is somewhat heartening.

My best friend had never heard of it but had grown up with me most of my life and his reaction to me explaining what Demisexuality was "I could have told you that years ago." Because he knew all that about me with or without the label.

The exact same situation with my best friend. After I explained it to her, she texted me back, "It's more or less how I figured you worked. I just didn't know there was a name for it." Admittedly, though I love that she knows me so well and is so accepting, it is a little frustrating to realise that she had already figured out something that I spent years being confused about. -laughs-

[Lil'cake]

My best friend had never heard of it but had grown up with me most of my life and his reaction to me explaining what Demisexuality was "I could have told you that years ago." Because he knew all that about me with or without the label.

The exact same situation with my best friend. After I explained it to her, she texted me back, "It's more or less how I figured you worked. I just didn't know there was a name for it." Admittedly, though I love that she knows me so well and is so accepting, it is a little frustrating to realise that she had already figured out something that I spent years being confused about. -laughs-

^ Yeah this pretty much says it all...

[Guest]

I think you've perfectly summed up why this entire debate will be never-ending, at least until the definition of orientation is altered (which is, hopefully, some day). I have no energy left to debate the validity of my orientation to people who deny is can be an orientation to begin with.

You've found a perfect way of saying (and then some) what I've been thinking, and why I've been so frustrated over this. Thank you so much.

First of all, I can guarantee you that demisexuality is NEVER going to be an orientation per the DSM. It just won't. I can give you many, many reasons, but it's irrelevant.

Whether something is or is not called an orientation is irrelevant and focusing on that is... confusing, to say the least.

If anything, the entire concept of "orientation" will be scrapped as being senseless, and everyone will be able to do whatever the hell they want to do without feeling the need to call it an orientation. Because honestly. HONESTLY. What you call it doesn't matter. Just be yourself, man, and forget the rest.

[dalkey]

I think you've perfectly summed up why this entire debate will be never-ending, at least until the definition of orientation is altered (which is, hopefully, some day). I have no energy left to debate the validity of my orientation to people who deny is can be an orientation to begin with.

You've found a perfect way of saying (and then some) what I've been thinking, and why I've been so frustrated over this. Thank you so much.

First of all, I can guarantee you that demisexuality is NEVER going to be an orientation per the DSM. It just won't. I can give you many, many reasons, but it's irrelevant.

Whether something is or is not called an orientation is irrelevant and focusing on that is... confusing, to say the least.

If anything, the entire concept of "orientation" will be scrapped as being senseless, and everyone will be able to do whatever the hell they want to do without feeling the need to call it an orientation. Because honestly. HONESTLY. What you call it doesn't matter. Just be yourself, man, and forget the rest.

Cool. It's still how I identify though. I don't care if it's ever ""classified"" as a valid sexuality. I really don't. To me, it's valid, and that's that. You making that statement to begin with is irrelevant. I had JUST found peace, and you have disturbed it, once again. Thanks for that.

The only reason I've deemed it as relevant is because it's perceived as synonymous with one's identity in general. Being told demisexuality isn't a valid orientation is the same as being told it's not a valid identity or sexuality. Yes, that bothers me, and yes, my offense to being told my identity is incomplete or that I'm identifying wrong is valid.

It's hard to not be offended when someone says I can't identify validly the way I do. I've spent my entire life having my identity erased (both related and unrelated to my sexuality), being told I'm not who I am, and no, I can't just take it. I'm sick and tired of taking it. "Taking it" has done SO much damage to my identity and my mental health. What I call it matters when I'm consistently told I can't identify that way because one simply can't identify as that without indicating a gender. Of course that matters to me. No one likes being invalidated, and no one should just accept it. I will always fight for how I identify. Always.

Let's just stop discussing orientation at all. I came here for support, not backlash. I came here to hear stories about how others have been invalidated, not to be told outwardly AGAIN that my sexuality will never qualify as a valid identity by itself because it doesn't imply a gender (which I have already said, I can't indicate to begin with unless I date gender on this planet).

All this thread has done is make me more upset than I was to begin with. Please, let's diverge from anything related to demi being a valid/invalid orientation and discuss what this thread was INTENDED to discuss.

[Guest]

With all due respect, no.

Look. The word "orientation" has a definition. That definition does not include demisexuality. You can call it an orientation if you'd like, just like how I can call a four legged sitting apparatus a television. What I probably shouldn't do is get personally offended when people are like "dats a chair, Skullery." No one is saying televisions don't exist, just that I'm not abiding by the English language.

I see you're young. I suspect you're unaware of why we have orientations and where the definition came from. Well. It's from the DSM. Homosexuality was considered a mental illness, so definitions were drafted so that we could be identified and cured. All I've ever wanted was to be left alone... I'd kill to one day find out no one wants to know that I'm gay. That would be superb!! You know why? Because people want to label us so they can hurt us. THAT'S the history and the reality of your precious "orientation."

So call demisexuality an orientation if you want to. Just recognize that it doesn't meet the definion of orientation, which really, is fine, since those definitions existed solely to pathologize healthy sexual behaviour.

[dalkey]

With all due respect, no.

Look. The word "orientation" has a definition. That definition does not include demisexuality. You can call it an orientation if you'd like, just like how I can call a four legged sitting apparatus a television. What I probably shouldn't do is get personally offended when people are like "dats a chair, Skullery." No one is saying televisions don't exist, just that I'm not abiding by the English language.

I see you're young. I suspect you're unaware of why we have orientations and where the definition came from. Well. It's from the DSM. Homosexuality was considered a mental illness, so definitions were drafted so that we could be identified and cured. All I've ever wanted was to be left alone... I'd kill to one day find out no one wants to know that I'm gay. That would be superb!! You know why? Because people want to label us so they can hurt us. THAT'S the history and the reality of your precious "orientation."

So call demisexuality an orientation if you want to. Just recognize that it doesn't meet the definion of orientation, which really, is fine, since those definitions existed solely to pathologize healthy sexual behaviour.

With all due respect, I'm done with you and people like you, and I will continue identifying the way I do because I feel that it is valid, and people like you have ZERO effect on that. Stop trying to make me "realize" that my identity is invalid. My identity is my own business and you have NO right to come here and INSIST that I'm identifying wrong. It is so utterly disgusting. People like you just go on and on and on, using so much energy JUST to remind me that my orientation is deemed invalid. It's petty and ridiculous and (trigger warning) makes me want to die, and very much so makes me wish I had been successful the first time I tried to kill myself. That's all I've felt for the past days this thread has been active. I feel like I'll only ever be attacked like this. I feel like I'm deemed as some sort of abomination for not identifying the way people like you feel I should, for harmlessly believing demisexual is an orientation and identifying that way. Please, for the last time, leave me and my identity alone. I've already been pushed over the edge with this. Stop pushing me further.

[Guest]

I'm pretty sure you're having a comprehension issue, and it's going to continue to cause you distress. You're making no attempt to understand anyone's position. If you want to feel like a victim over the misuse of a vocabulary word, so be it. Your issues are not my responsibility. No one is invalidating demisexuality as a thing. No one. To continue to attempt to accuse avenites of invalidating your identity despite no one having done so... well. Seems like a waste to me, but ya know, you do you, bro.

[dalkey]

I'm pretty sure you're having a comprehension issue, and it's going to continue to cause you distress. You're making no attempt to understand anyone's position. If you want to feel like a victim over the misuse of a vocabulary word, so be it. Your issues are not my responsibility. No one is invalidating demisexuality as a thing. No one. To continue to attempt to accuse avenites of invalidating your identity despite no one having done so... well. Seems like a waste to me, but ya know, you do you, bro.

Please leave me alone. It's not a comprehension issue. I believe it's an orientation/sexual identity/sexuality, and that's not going to change on any grounds. I've repeatedly been told that it's not, that's it's just preference, when no, it's my identity. Being told it can't be my identity is invalidation.

Please do not call me bro or man, and please leave me alone.

[Sally]

Dalkey, you obviously feel very personal about this, maybe because, as you indicated, you've felt dismissed in some ways before in your life. But this has become an argument of definitions, not a personal attack on you. Probably most of us have issues that trigger us; I know that I have. If you feel so strongly about this issue and this particular discussion, maybe it would be good to not continue to fight and go to other threads.

AVEN members are generally very supportive, but sometimes we get into "this, no that" discussions. If this thread had been in the Tea and Sympathy forum, things might have been different.

[Ms.Frankenstein]

This discussion goes to show that orientation is becoming an unnecessary, outdated and harmful concept. Dalkey, if you don't fit the definition of orientation, neither do I. We're not broken, the idea of orientation is.

Maybe from now on if I'm asked my orientation I'll say I don't have one. :P It will amuse me to see the looks on their faces!

[Lil'cake]

The first post was her venting and asking other people to share experiences if they've ever been invalidated before. I don't believe she was asking for sympathy towards her original post but rather to make a thread to share personal experiences. There's no need for a thread where people share their experiences needs to be in the tea and sympathy forums.

I understand people have triggers or feel passionate about certain subjects and feel the need to debate them. I said in an earlier post that I'm not against open minded discussion but I don't see the purpose of debating orientation in a thread where we were asked to share personal experiences. If you'd like to talk about whether Demisesuality fits the description of orientation, or whether or not orientations should exist to begin with, make a thread and I'll even join you there. But hijacking someone else's to talk about off topic personal views to someone who's asked you to stop isn't the way to do it.

[Guest]

The entire point of the thread was the validity of demi as an orientation. If the point of the thread is "pet my head because someone said demi isn't an orientation", that needs to be in tea and sympathy. Rather, this was a strong argument about the definitional validity. The OP doesn't understand why everyone keeps saying it's not an orientation. Well, rather than continue to feel victimized forever, another option is to explain to the OP why maybe arguing that it is a orientation is going to continue to receive the same responses. Sometimes, when you see someone banging their head against a wall and getting all bloodied up, the best thing to do is get them to stop banging their head against the damn wall. Telling the person that the wall is mean and shouldn't be standing there... far less helpful.

[dalkey]

The entire point of the thread was the validity of demi as an orientation. If the point of the thread is "pet my head because someone said demi isn't an orientation", that needs to be in tea and sympathy. Rather, this was a strong argument about the definitional validity. The OP doesn't understand why everyone keeps saying it's not an orientation. Well, rather than continue to feel victimized forever, another option is to explain to the OP why maybe arguing that it is a orientation is going to continue to receive the same responses. Sometimes, when you see someone banging their head against a wall and getting all bloodied up, the best thing to do is get them to stop banging their head against the damn wall. Telling the person that the wall is mean and shouldn't be standing there... far less helpful.

As the OP, it wasn't over its validity, it was to share experiences of feeling invalidated. It didn't occur to me to post it elsewhere, I'm so sorry. Again. Please leave me alone.

[Lil'cake]

Her original post was made because people don't believe there is a spectrum of asexuality and that the grey area does not exist. It doesn't mention the word orientation once. Regardless of whether or not the word orientation fits, she made a post in the gray asexual forum about people who invalidate gray asexuality because they don't believe in it, and asked people to share their experiences with others invalidating them.

[dalkey]

Her original post was made because people don't believe there is a spectrum of asexuality and that the grey area does not exist. It doesn't mention the word orientation once. Regardless of whether or not the word orientation fits, she made a post in the gray asexual forum about people who invalidate gray asexuality because they don't believe in it, and asked people to share their experiences with others invalidating them.

Exactly, thank you so much. I'm done debating. If anyone has any experiences of being invalidated that they'd like to add, please do.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

I just wanted to offer my sympathies to you and how you're feeling because you're clearly very upset over the whole thing. Feeling as though you're invalidated is very hard, especially if your identify means a lot to you (personally I need a stable sense of self or I end up going more nuts); some people don't and I think that's why they try to say labels don't matter.

Semantics aside, I think you're perfectly within your rights to identify how you want to. I'm all up for debate about the meaning of words but let's be right here, demisexuality is a very difficult one to pin down because you can't actually know who you're attracted to straight away, so personally I can accept it as an orientation. I accept words have meanings but when it comes to personal identities people really shouldn't be attacking you for it.

I hope I haven't offended you, I'm just trying to word it so no one gets offended and that's hard!

Invalidations? Well I'm aro and ace so I've won asexual bingo quite a few times in my life ;) Most people I've talked to have eventually "accepted" it though (I use that term loosely because it was in the presence of others and presumably they didn't want to be seen as an arse).

[sestina]

I'm shocked that it is acceptable to derail and invalidate OP in her own thread. Would any of you invade a thread of a trans person and tell them that they are not a REAL woman because technically they have the "wrong" private bits? I agree that orientation is a dated and obsolete concept, but that applies to all orientations and many identities as well. All of these semantical arguments over demisexuality reek of phobia.

Take it to the Hot Box if you want a debate, but keep it out of here.

[sestina]

With all due respect, no.

Look. The word "orientation" has a definition. That definition does not include demisexuality. You can call it an orientation if you'd like, just like how I can call a four legged sitting apparatus a television. What I probably shouldn't do is get personally offended when people are like "dats a chair, Skullery." No one is saying televisions don't exist, just that I'm not abiding by the English language.

The word "marriage" had a definition as well....

But definitions change over time. Words mean whatever we say they mean. People *are* using demisexuality to mean orientation, so it is an orientation. Case closed. Start your own thread in the hot box if you disagree.

[borealmist]

Look. The word "orientation" has a definition. That definition does not include demisexuality. You can call it an orientation if you'd like, just like how I can call a four legged sitting apparatus a television. What I probably shouldn't do is get personally offended when people are like "dats a chair, Skullery." No one is saying televisions don't exist, just that I'm not abiding by the English language.

As far as I can tell, sexual orientation does not have a strict scientific definition. The last definition of the term from the APA I can find contains this: "While these categories continue to be widely used, research has suggested that sexual orientation does not always appear in such definable categories and instead occurs on a continuum (e.g., Kinsey, Pomeroy, Martin, & Gebhard, 1953; Klein, 1993; Klein, Sepekoff, & Wolff, 1985; Shiveley & DeCecco, 1977) In addition, some research indicates that sexual orientation is fluid for some people; this may be especially true for women." ( http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf )

And I mean, the historical DSM usage of the term is sloppy to the point of amateurism, I'm not sure they actually had any strict definition of orientation, apart from the diagnostic criteria for the so-called disturbance, even back when "sexual orientation disturbance" was a thing.

I mean, I get where you're coming from, but if even what the APA uses as a term definition is that fuzzy, it may be that sitting apparatuses are usually covered in bendable oled displays these days and it's time to just accept that you're right, they're actually televisions now. :)

Feel free to convince me, but lets take that private as it serves no purpose here.

[scarletlatitude]

Thread has been locked at the request of the OP

scarletlatitude

The Gray Area mod