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A straight man who identifies with lesbian women


Monadnock

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I'm somewhere in the gray area. I identify confidently as a straight man, and I'm in a relationship with a wonderful woman. But I don't identify strongly with straight sex. Sometimes it seems like I'm a "male lesbian," which is to say that I am attracted to other women but also see myself as female.

Until my early twenties, I was completely asexual. Since I was not visibly involved with women, many people thought I was gay, and I wasn't sure myself for a while. I also had an androgynous appearance for a while with long hair and baggy clothes (though I've never cross-dressed).

I identify more with typically female traits. I have followed a career path more typical of women (music teacher, social worker, stay at home parent). I have very little interest in sports such as football and baseball. I see myself as a nurturer.

I was in a "reverse role" marriage for 9 years. She was older than me and earned far more money in a majority male profession. We had a daughter and I did the majority of the parenting when she was little. My wife had stereotypical male faults (drinking and a bad temper), and I had stereotypical female ones (passive aggressiveness and simmering resentment). Our marriage turned bad, and unfortunately she told me that I was "really gay" and needed help. It's taken years of therapy for me to get over that.

I have been attracted to multiple women who aren't stereotypically feminine and straight. While I was still asexual, I twice went out on casual, nonsexual dates with women I knew to be lesbians. Later, I tried to start a relationship with a lesbian without realizing her orientation. My current woman is athletic and muscular, and she has a low voice - but also long hair and wonderful curves! We both sing tenor together in a choir.

I do have heterosexual sex, but it's not the most pleasurable thing for me.

I love kissing and being touched all over my body. Without getting too graphic, the type of lovemaking I am most drawn to is the mutual pleasuring that two women can do to each other. I don't like the idea of penetrating her without letting her penetrate me.

Perhaps it is overidealization on my part, but my ideal relationship is like what some gays and lesbians have, with mutuality and equality at the heart of the relationship. If I were attracted to men, I would gladly identify myself as gay. Instead I am straight, but in my own way.

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Nice to see that here :)

I did identify as a male lesbian at some point before coming across asexuality but the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive so it is something that I still think about.

The main issue with the idea of the male lesbian is that the person who came up with the term in the 80s didn't seem to fully grasp gender as a spectrum and transgenderism as a whole, most of his theory ends up sounding simplified as a straight male who wish they were born female but aren't looking to transition.

When I searched for it on AVEN there wasn't much result but this thread also has the original article by the guy who coined the term. If you are looking for a somewhat more in-depth of that article, I am not sure what my take is on this, but it's still a good read. Article named : This 1987 Book on Male Sexuality Explains "Male Lesbians"

For me, what would be my personal visualisation of the male lesbian would mostly be something like this :

- DMAB wish to have been born female but not looking to transition

- attracted to women [sensual? sexual? romantic? I guess any can fit so I leave it open]

- does not wish to conform to being male in a relationship (but is ok with male in other aspects of society)

(- relates more to female / sensitivity to female issues etc)

I've heard the term "guy dyke" sometimes used to describe a similar type of person but neither really have had any concrete research or discussions. It'd definitely be interesting to hear more about it.

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Ricecream-man

Do you have any kind of gender dysphoria as well or are you comfortable within your own body?

From what you said it doesn't seem like you have issues with sex as a whole, but rather you being the male in a sexual interaction. Just making sure, so if you had in the more traditionally female ways would you be okay with it then?

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Thank you! I knew there was probably a thread like the one A-gent quoted, but it was old and didn't appear in the first search results. There's a lot of good reading there.

@Ricecream, I think my gender dysphoria has been more in the area of behavioral roles than my body. Since childhood, I have rebelled against the model of masculinity my family and community demanded. I grew up in the South, and "being a man" meant liking rough sports like football and hunting, admiring the military, using your fists in the schoolyard, and establishing your dominance over anything you think was weak. My fantasy (idealized though it might be) was that girls didn't have to go through all of that. Of course, the girls had their own cruelties to negotiate, as I now realize.

Maybe the one place where I have felt dysphoric with my body has to do with how I feel sexual pleasure. I am now more aware that people are different as to how they are turned on.

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  • 2 months later...
allrightalready

If you're a man you aren't a lesbian.

i couldn't agree more

transition to female and then you can call yourself a lesbian, stay male and you cannot men who like womyn are straight men

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If you're a man you aren't a lesbian.

i couldn't agree more

transition to female and then you can call yourself a lesbian, stay male and you cannot men who like womyn are straight men

Forcing someone to transition is just as bad as forcing someone to stick to their bio-gender.

The moment you agree that gender is a spectrum and more than something binary, you should stop using worthless absolutes like that.

It's not about hijacking a term, it's about expressing a difference

But anyway, it's not like you'd expect people to understand

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allrightalready

If you're a man you aren't a lesbian.

i couldn't agree more

transition to female and then you can call yourself a lesbian, stay male and you cannot men who like womyn are straight men

Forcing someone to transition is just as bad as forcing someone to stick to their bio-gender.

The moment you agree that gender is a spectrum and more than something binary, you should stop using worthless absolutes like that.

It's not about hijacking a term, it's about expressing a difference

But anyway, it's not like you'd expect people to understand

not forcing anyone to transition, just saying men cannot be lesbians any more than allosexuals can be asexuals

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I'm somewhere in the gray area. I identify confidently as a straight man, and I'm in a relationship with a wonderful woman. But I don't identify strongly with straight sex. Sometimes it seems like I'm a "male lesbian," which is to say that I am attracted to other women but also see myself as female.

Until my early twenties, I was completely asexual. Since I was not visibly involved with women, many people thought I was gay, and I wasn't sure myself for a while. I also had an androgynous appearance for a while with long hair and baggy clothes (though I've never cross-dressed).

I identify more with typically female traits. I have followed a career path more typical of women (music teacher, social worker, stay at home parent). I have very little interest in sports such as football and baseball. I see myself as a nurturer.

I was in a "reverse role" marriage for 9 years. She was older than me and earned far more money in a majority male profession. We had a daughter and I did the majority of the parenting when she was little. My wife had stereotypical male faults (drinking and a bad temper), and I had stereotypical female ones (passive aggressiveness and simmering resentment). Our marriage turned bad, and unfortunately she told me that I was "really gay" and needed help. It's taken years of therapy for me to get over that.

I have been attracted to multiple women who aren't stereotypically feminine and straight. While I was still asexual, I twice went out on casual, nonsexual dates with women I knew to be lesbians. Later, I tried to start a relationship with a lesbian without realizing her orientation. My current woman is athletic and muscular, and she has a low voice - but also long hair and wonderful curves! We both sing tenor together in a choir.

I do have heterosexual sex, but it's not the most pleasurable thing for me.

I love kissing and being touched all over my body. Without getting too graphic, the type of lovemaking I am most drawn to is the mutual pleasuring that two women can do to each other. I don't like the idea of penetrating her without letting her penetrate me.

Perhaps it is overidealization on my part, but my ideal relationship is like what some gays and lesbians have[/b], with mutuality and equality at the heart of the relationship. If I were attracted to men, I would gladly identify myself as gay. Instead I am straight, but in my own way.

In your post you bring up many stereotypes of women as proof that you are a lesbian. They are simply stereotypes. You feel what you feel, but don't bolster that feeling with stereotypical traits of women.

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In your post you bring up many stereotypes of women as proof that you are a lesbian. They are simply stereotypes. You feel what you feel, but don't bolster that feeling with stereotypical traits of women.

Honestly this is how I felt about it too. The entire concept of "male lesbian" is based on nothing but gender stereotypes. You know what guys? Most lesbians have lots of male traits but that doesn't make us all "female straight men". Bucking stereotypes is awesome. Bucking stereotypes isn't really bucking stereotypes anymore if you have to call yourself a lesbian in order to do it.

There's also something very... prurient about the term. Like it's intended to denote a straight man who is more sexual (or better at sex) than regular men. I don't know why but I get a boasting feeling from the term (but I fully admit this is likely due to my abusive sex-addict father calling himself a male lesbian for a year while I was a teenager).

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If you're a man you aren't a lesbian.

i couldn't agree more

transition to female and then you can call yourself a lesbian, stay male and you cannot men who like womyn are straight men

Wow.... AFAB here who identifies with being a gay male.. Under no circumstances wants a hetero relationship, yet only is attracted to men. Identifies as genderqueer and very dysphoric about my "female parts" but won't transition because I generally like my appearance otherwise.

Using the term "womyn" is synonymous with the TERF movement- radical feminist who reject anything outside the realm of their cis-female view. Throwing that around is like dousing someone with lighter fluid and striking a match.

It isn't for anyone to police the identities of other. You can't see their feelings or how they experience the world and you can't invalidate those feelings based on how they physically present to the world. I can wear make up and dresses and heels to my hearts content- and it will NEVER change my internal programming to that of a female.. Tried that my whole life, hasn't worked.

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allrightalready

If you're a man you aren't a lesbian.

i couldn't agree more

transition to female and then you can call yourself a lesbian, stay male and you cannot men who like womyn are straight men

Wow.... AFAB here who identifies with being a gay male.. Under no circumstances wants a hetero relationship, yet only is attracted to men. Identifies as genderqueer and very dysphoric about my "female parts" but won't transition because I generally like my appearance otherwise.

Using the term "womyn" is synonymous with the TERF movement- radical feminist who reject anything outside the realm of their cis-female view. Throwing that around is like dousing someone with lighter fluid and striking a match.

It isn't for anyone to police the identities of other. You can't see their feelings or how they experience the world and you can't invalidate those feelings based on how they physically present to the world. I can wear make up and dresses and heels to my hearts content- and it will NEVER change my internal programming to that of a female.. Tried that my whole life, hasn't worked.

not even close to murdering someone nor am i policing their identity, just discussing word definitions

and i have made it clear numerous times here that i am a radical feminist yes, however i am not trans exclusionary, they are not synonymous in fact i think they are better described as reactionary if you know what those terms actually mean

TW: misogyny, injustice, rape (story of why i use the spelling)

in 2012 i was walking to the bus stop right around the corner from my house a little past noon, dressed for summer (baggy shorts which reached my knees and a baggy tshirt, i had lost weight))

a man accosted me and beat me within an inch of my life. i was bruised head to toe and had a broken jaw, i woke up in the hospital realizing i had been attacked and raped.

when i attempted to report the crime the cops thought the whole thing was funny. they tossed out the rape kit i had forced them to get and filled it as not a crime. no one would help me, i went up the entire chain of command and contacted many attorneys

i had used the spelling on and off over the decades but i started using it more and more. over the next months on every social media i was on i got attacked (crime reports are public), there were groups literally working to get me to commit suicide (one even told me so in a message).

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@allrightalready- I'm sorry you were assaulted. That's not right under any circumstances..

@Skullery Maid- Your father claiming to be a "male lesbian" as a ruse when abusing you also isn't right..

At the same time, there are those of us who neither socially nor sexually have internal programming that agree with the box we came in. There are also cases where physically transitioning wouldn't make people feel like their more authentic selves or improve their lives in a significant way.. But because we don't necessarily want to transition our diametrically opposing internal feelings get invalidated as wanting gay or lesbian people to be straight..

The OP has had hetero-sex and wasn't thrilled with it- he's only attracted to women and falls into a more female social/emotional/relational dynamic.

I've had hetero-sex in a long term relationship.. I could never do that again.. I'm only attracted to males (who aren't interested in my female parts) and I have a more masculine social/emotional/relational dynamic.

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Using the term "womyn" is synonymous with the TERF movement- radical feminist who reject anything outside the realm of their cis-female view. Throwing that around is like dousing someone with lighter fluid and striking a match.

...

It isn't for anyone to police the identities of other.

You're trying to police someone out of using the term "womyn", yet you say they shouldn't police others' identities?

So policing is only OK when you do it?

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Calligraphette_Coe

It would be quite an understatement to say I've lived an extremely troubled life because of dysphoria/sex/gender issues. Since forever, I've tried to find a place to fit in, and having thought about the term 'male lesbian', there's just not enough shared experience or history to identify that way for myself. I can observe forever, but it wouldn't be the same and it seems almost like disrespecting a culture by misappropriation. I think, at long last, trans people have been assembling the foundations of that new culture.

If I could be the Ghost of Christmas Future and grant my own fondest wish, it would be that we all build our own cultures and find common ground where we can, and find empathy and respect where we can't quite find that common ground. That there will always be tribes, but that everyone is always at peace with the others, and we all stand together fighting an often hostile social universe as best allies, each to the other.

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Using the term "womyn" is synonymous with the TERF movement- radical feminist who reject anything outside the realm of their cis-female view. Throwing that around is like dousing someone with lighter fluid and striking a match.

...

It isn't for anyone to police the identities of other.

You're trying to police someone out of using the term "womyn", yet you say they shouldn't police others' identities?

So policing is only OK when you do it?

Womyn is NOT an identity.. You obviously read what you wanted to hear an inserted your feeling between the lines.. I've never policed anybody's identity- more along the lines of trying to say that one's sexual orientation can still be queer if they are cis (or appear such) and are attracted to the opposite of their birth sex.

As I actually pointed out, it is very charged term used by TERFs.. The person said they are not a TERF and use this for their own purposes, but it still is a term that will get many people's hackles up if it's being thrown around without a background context to it.

Think I'm taking a break from these pissing matches for a while.. I can already get enough negativity just walking out of my house and being wolf whistled at by hood trash.. Thank God it's getting cold enough that I can wear hoodies without overheating.

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I like that this conversation is happening, it seems productive. However, this is also something that could easily get heated. In that regards, I thought I would mention that the hot box is a good forum for heated debates. Let's keep things around here cool and move over to the hot box if we feel like more lively debate ;)

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Using the term "womyn" is synonymous with the TERF movement- radical feminist who reject anything outside the realm of their cis-female view. Throwing that around is like dousing someone with lighter fluid and striking a match.

...

It isn't for anyone to police the identities of other.

You're trying to police someone out of using the term "womyn", yet you say they shouldn't police others' identities?

So policing is only OK when you do it?

Womyn is NOT an identity.. You obviously read what you wanted to hear an inserted your feeling between the lines.. I've never policed anybody's identity- more along the lines of trying to say that one's sexual orientation can still be queer if they are cis (or appear such) and are attracted to the opposite of their birth sex.

As I actually pointed out, it is very charged term used by TERFs.. The person said they are not a TERF and use this for their own purposes, but it still is a term that will get many people's hackles up if it's being thrown around without a background context to it.

The point I was making, as I thought should be obvious, was not about identities, it was about policing -- the policing of anything, including using words. You can't logically criticize others' policing when you do it also.

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@Skullery Maid- Your father claiming to be a "male lesbian" as a ruse when abusing you also isn't right..

No no no... just want to clear up, because damn that's creepy... I was never sexually abused and there was no ruse. My dad's just an asshole.

*shudders at the misunderstanding*

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If you don't like the "Male Gender Role" or "Expectations Heaped Upon Male Bodied Humans" - but you feel like you are a man, then...

It's OK to identify as a man who challenges gender stereotypes.

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If you don't like the "Male Gender Role" or "Expectations Heaped Upon Male Bodied Humans" - but you feel like you are a man, then...

It's OK to identify as a man who challenges gender stereotypes.

Yes. For example, someone can be a cis man, attracted to women, and (as an example) only attracted to butch women, sexually submissive, always want to be the bottom and/or receiver in sex, and have stereotypically "feminine" traits. Such a person is still a cis man, but a cis man who defies gender stereotypes. He could even enjoy wearing women's clothing and still be both straight and cis.

Gender identity, sexual orientation, sexual preferences within that orientation, and gender presentation are all separate things. They can overlap and affect each other, but they are separate, and they can vary independently of one another.

Recall where the term "stereotype" comes from: a certain type of printed illustration in a book. So if there's say an image of a robin used to represent "birds," that doesn't mean penguins aren't birds, too, just that the robin was chosen for the illustration. And just because penguins and fish both swim, and penguins and fish both can't fly, doesn't make a penguin a fish.

If this isn't helpful, please disregard.

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one's sexual orientation can still be queer if they are cis (or appear such) and are attracted to the opposite of their birth sex.

But how? :blink:

I understand cishet relationships that are queer, because one or both people involved are trans/non-binary and/or bi/pan/ace, but a straight cis person being queer? To quote Wikipedia:

Queer is an umbrella term for sexual and gender minorities that are not heterosexual or cisgender.

Hence queer cis-het is a self-contradiction.

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If you're a man you aren't a lesbian.

Why are we dwelling on that for so long?

I am attracted to other women but also see myself as female.

See? He feels female. Dysphoria is not a requirement for identifying as this or that.

I'd say it's more "androgyne" type of thing, since the OP says:

I identify confidently as a straight man

too.

Apart from this, he's also got problems with the gender role of a man. Many people have this problem: cis, trans, non-binary...

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I always say someone up there stuck a weiner on a lesbian and shipped her off by accident, and that's where I came from

I'm male, no gender confusion there... but I find much more comfort with female-bodied people with more male traits, usually lesbians

I really dislike men in general, and I tend to be romantically attracted to straight women, so it makes sense anyway... my best friend is a gender-neutral lesbian and I tend to befriend lesbians much more easily than anyone else

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allrightalready

one's sexual orientation can still be queer if they are cis (or appear such) and are attracted to the opposite of their birth sex.

But how? :blink:

I understand cishet relationships that are queer, because one or both people involved are trans/non-binary and/or bi/pan/ace, but a straight cis person being queer? To quote Wikipedia:

Queer is an umbrella term for sexual and gender minorities that are not heterosexual or cisgender.

Hence queer cis-het is a self-contradiction.

Queer is an umbrella term and/or reclaimed slur for anyone who is LGBTQIA+. That includes cisgender, heterosexual, heteroromantic, intersex people

if cis heteros can be queer then queer is "normal" and there is no point to the label

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one's sexual orientation can still be queer if they are cis (or appear such) and are attracted to the opposite of their birth sex.

But how? :blink:

I understand cishet relationships that are queer, because one or both people involved are trans/non-binary and/or bi/pan/ace, but a straight cis person being queer? To quote Wikipedia:

Queer is an umbrella term for sexual and gender minorities that are not heterosexual or cisgender.

Hence queer cis-het is a self-contradiction.

Queer is an umbrella term and/or reclaimed slur for anyone who is LGBTQIA+. That includes cisgender, heterosexual, heteroromantic, intersex people.

/confused/

There are always exceptions. E.g. someone who is heterosexual and homoromantic (cross-orientation), or heteroromantic and homosexual. Also, someone who is cis and ace. And if an intersex persion IDs as queer, cool by me, too. But are you saying that everyone, no matter what their sexual orientation or gender identity, can identify as queer? if so, what does "queer" mean? (Honest question, not trying to police words here.)

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I was saying appearances are deceiving regarding who is/isn't "queer". Despite the appearance of a couple being male/female, you don't really know how they identify or their interpersonal relationship dynamics.

I am an AFAB who, for all intensive purposes, appears cis-het.. Highly unlikely I will transition in any visible way, so if I have a relationship (which would be with a male), we're going to look like a hetero couple and likely be denied a queer label as such even if we were both very out (just look at bi-erasure: the second you're with the opposite sex you are "straight" and most of the general population still likely wouldn't give credit to a trans label if they cannot see you actively presenting as the opposite to your birth sex).

Also- relationship dynamics that are essential role reversal fall into the queer realm. Not saying egalitarian straight relationships without traditional gender roles- but if the man is taking on a female persona and the woman a male's and this is a primary dynamic that the relationship is based on, then yes it can be considered queer.

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Calligraphette_Coe

I was saying appearances are deceiving regarding who is/isn't "queer". Despite the appearance of a couple being male/female, you don't really know how they identify or their interpersonal relationship dynamics.

I am an AFAB who, for all intensive purposes, appears cis-het.. Highly unlikely I will transition in any visible way, so if I have a relationship (which would be with a male), we're going to look like a hetero couple and likely be denied a queer label as such even if we were both very out (just look at bi-erasure: the second you're with the opposite sex you are "straight" and most of the general population still likely wouldn't give credit to a trans label if they cannot see you actively presenting as the opposite to your birth sex).

Also- relationship dynamics that are essential role reversal fall into the queer realm. Not saying egalitarian straight relationships without traditional gender roles- but if the man is taking on a female persona and the woman a male's and this is a primary dynamic that the relationship is based on, then yes it can be considered queer.

See, I grok that- in the same way one knows that being married to a woman didn't make Cole Porter str8. It's soo easy when you think about it-- it's your nature that makes you queer, NOT your circumstances.

Crap, I was queer long before being Queer was cool. It wasn't exactly fun getting beat up for being the 'light in the loafers' smart kid. And then it was heartbreaking, when finding trans space in the 90s, that my circumstances made me medically unable to do HRT. Non-op Asexual became the new queer, and it wasn't exactly something that endeared one with the community. It's why I still stay away from places like Tumblr and Yahoo Answers.

And really, if I'm not somewhat visually queer, why, like last night, do I get ridiculed verbally by groups of yuppy guys at the mall, having to brush the hair away from the eyes on the back of my head in case they start following me.

It's also why, when I came here to AVEN, I never expected to find this small community of genderqueer people, so I chose a more esoteric screen name with slightly male connotations. I didn't want to go back to being a secret agent in the turf wars again, so I went CryptoQueer on the scene.

I fixed that the other day. :) Tada!

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I tend to agree with allrightalready and Skullery: I've even had lesbian friends call me a lesbian, but because I'm not a woman and nobody even thinks I am, that makes me uncomfortable. Because actual lesbians risk so much taking up that identity, y'know?

Even before I realized I was agender, I had a sense very similar to OP, but I think it's more helpful to focus on the specific concepts that you associate with a lesbian relationship, that you would like to emphasize in your relationship. Exploration of erogenous zones. Non-phallocentric sex. A power dynamic rooted in equality and not dirtied by the kind of gender essentialism and ego that many other men bring into their relationships.

However...It really comes down to how you consider yourself a man, and how you consider yourself a woman. Do you feel like, because you defy certain expectations of masculinity, you're forced to call yourself something else? Or is it more like Emery said?

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I was saying appearances are deceiving regarding who is/isn't "queer". Despite the appearance of a couple being male/female, you don't really know how they identify or their interpersonal relationship dynamics.

I am an AFAB who, for all intensive purposes, appears cis-het.. Highly unlikely I will transition in any visible way, so if I have a relationship (which would be with a male), we're going to look like a hetero couple and likely be denied a queer label as such even if we were both very out (just look at bi-erasure: the second you're with the opposite sex you are "straight" and most of the general population still likely wouldn't give credit to a trans label if they cannot see you actively presenting as the opposite to your birth sex).

Also- relationship dynamics that are essential role reversal fall into the queer realm. Not saying egalitarian straight relationships without traditional gender roles- but if the man is taking on a female persona and the woman a male's and this is a primary dynamic that the relationship is based on, then yes it can be considered queer.

See, I grok that- in the same way one knows that being married to a woman didn't make Cole Porter str8. It's soo easy when you think about it-- it's your nature that makes you queer, NOT your circumstances.

Crap, I was queer long before being Queer was cool. It wasn't exactly fun getting beat up for being the 'light in the loafers' smart kid. And then it was heartbreaking, when finding trans space in the 90s, that my circumstances made me medically unable to do HRT. Non-op Asexual became the new queer, and it wasn't exactly something that endeared one with the community. It's why I still stay away from places like Tumblr and Yahoo Answers.

And really, if I'm not somewhat visually queer, why, like last night, do I get ridiculed verbally by groups of yuppy guys at the mall, having to brush the hair away from the eyes on the back of my head in case they start following me.

It's also why, when I came here to AVEN, I never expected to find this small community of genderqueer people, so I chose a more esoteric screen name with slightly male connotations. I didn't want to go back to being a secret agent in the turf wars again, so I went CryptoQueer on the scene.

I fixed that the other day. :) Tada!

And may I just say that I love your new avatar and name? Like, you are looking better than ever!! :cake:

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Calligraphette_Coe

And really, if I'm not somewhat visually queer, why, like last night, do I get ridiculed verbally by groups of yuppy guys at the mall, having to brush the hair away from the eyes on the back of my head in case they start following me.

It's also why, when I came here to AVEN, I never expected to find this small community of genderqueer people, so I chose a more esoteric screen name with slightly male connotations. I didn't want to go back to being a secret agent in the turf wars again, so I went CryptoQueer on the scene.

I fixed that the other day. :) Tada!

And may I just say that I love your new avatar and name? Like, you are looking better than ever!! :cake:

Awww, you're very kind, Heart! I try not to drive myself crazy by wondering what improvements 20 years worth of being on a low dose of estrogen would have made. Like Popeye said:

I yam what I yam.

I used to use this screen name about 20 years ago as a pen name on some listservs, and it always kind of inspired me to write. Don't know quite why I don't do it more and have writer's block a lot, but I thought maybe this would have been a good first step. It's a lot.... hmmm..... prettier? I just feel kind of warm glowy whatever when I use it, if that makes any sense?

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