Hormones Question

[Heart]

You'd think I'd know this by now, having hung out here long enough, but surprisingly enough, I don't actually know if there is such a thing as androgyne blockers, but for female hormones.

I know that male bodies (or bodies that produce more testosterone, and have all such side effects) can take androgyne blockers to become more "neutral". They may also take "female" hormones such as oestrogen to then appear more female.

But what about coming the other direction? Can female bodies take something to block oestrogen and progesterone (are those the two only "female" hormones? I don't know a lot of endocrine stuffs) to appear more "neutral" without taking T? Or is the path to neutrality through hormones typically to take a low dose of T, lower than a typical dose for someone who wishes to appear male?

In general, how in the world do hormones even work?? I wants to know more about non-binary transitions.

[Chikane-Chan]

That is an interesting question. I am unsure if there are oestrogen and progesterone blockers, I would assume so since a higher than usual level of them could be an issue so it would surprise me if they dont exist.

As for non binary transitions I cant really give much information there either.

[AveSatanas]

To the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as female hormone blockers.When I was researching my hormones ( I am female bodied) I never heard of them and I had friends who knew everything about transition. I have neutrois friends who use low doses of testosterone to achieve what you are talking about but they have limited success. Blocking female hormones will not make you more androgynous. Only adding a certain amount of male hormones does that. You need a knowledgeable gender therapist to refer you to an endocrinologist for a full explanation of what your options are as a female bodied person looking for HRT for non binary transitioning. A hysterectomy with your ovaries removed will eliminate female hormones, but if you are not replacing them with testosterone you can get really sick and have to take fake estrogen and progesterone, you really need qualified medical advice. AVEN is not the best place to go for this kind of advice, IMO.

[an18059]

I know there are like puberty blockers for trans males, but once you're past that I don't know what you can do... maybe you could ask your GP about it? Sorry for not being much use :(

[citizenofAcity]

AveSatanas hit the nail on the head. Blocking your hormones and not replacing them with another prominent type will kind of destroy your endocrine system and lead to some serious medical problems. Because testosterone is the not primary hormone in female bodies, you will not become more neutral just because you stop estrogen from being produced. You'll just end up with really low levels of each type of hormone, and that is dangerous. So whether you decide to block your hormones or not, testosterone is your only viable option.

The key is the dose and how long you plan on being on it, but even then some changes will reverse if you go off of testosterone, and you'll have to decide whether you want to continue being on testosterone to keep those changes even though some other more permanent changes may become more masculine than you'd like. Obviously with hormones you can't pick the changes that occur and how/when they'll affect you, but it's all gradual, so you'll have control over when you want to halt the process. You can also go on and off: be on testosterone for a few months, take a break for a few months, go back on it, and so on. For that method I would not recommend using hormone blockers because again, without a prominent regulating hormone, your body will run into some trouble.

Hormones control a lot in the body: digestion, metabolism, tissue function, respiration, sensory perception, sleep, stress, growth, movement, mood, etc. They're super important not only to your endocrine system, but your overall health...which is what the endocrine system has control over, anyway. :P

[Heart]

Just to be clear, I would never do anything based only on advice gleaned from the internet. I love you all, and this forum feels like home to me, but I know that you are not medical professionals. Thank you for the warning, Ave. Doctors and medical professionals will always have the most weight in advice when it comes to these things. I am just asking, to see the options out there, though I am not considering actually doing anything right now. It's kind of just an itch in the back of my mind. Maybe over time, I decide it's a big enough itch to pay attention to and do something about, or maybe it gets more annoying/painful until I have to do something about it, or maybe I just forget about it and never do anything. But for now I just wish to collect information and experiences.

I found it odd, when thinking about it, that I hear of androgyne blockers but not an equivalent for the other end of the spectrum. If low hormone levels are dangerous for female bodies, then why may male bodies take androgyne blockers without taking hormonal supplements of female hormones? Or at least, I thought that was an option. Now I'm doubting myself...

I guess I am interested in knowing more about nonbinary transition for all body types. Male, female, intersex. I am more interested in AFAB transitions, simply because of my status as AFAB, but I am finding myself wanting to know more about nonbinary transition in general, especially transition to neutral as opposed to androgynous.

[citizenofAcity]

No, don't doubt yourself! D: We just get the shorter end of the wishbone, I suppose. We don't know why blocking testosterone has a mild feminizing effect; it just does. Androgen blockers are like a low dose estrogen, but it's beyond me as to why that is.

Non-binary transition is an enigma, indeed...

[Kelly]

There is Arimidex (Anastrozole). It blocks the conversion of T into E2 by inhibiting aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone into estradiol [1] (the main and most powerful estrogen).

This happens mainly in ovaries, and also to some extent in your adipose (fat) tissue.

The only way to make estrogen is to first make testosterone. In testicles, the T will be an end product (but in adipose tissues, even in men, some T gets converted to E2 but that is OK because some E2, estrogen, is required for health), but in ovaries the aromatization of testosterone to estrogen (estradiol) is also done, and estradiol is an end product.

Arimidex significantly reduces the conversion of T into E2[2]. This means that ovaries and fat cells will produce very little estrogen. Feminization will be greatly reduced.

There can be side effects, but I am not an expert in that.

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2228389/figure/fig03/

[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2228389/table/tbl1/

[Rising Sun]

There are also foods carrying anti-estrogenic molecules.

Other than that, the only way to do something would be to either remove ovaries or to induce menopause. But it has some bad side effects, just like menopause itself, and the adrenal glands still make testosterone and may increase its production if menopause is induced.

[butterflydreams]

As far as I understand, it's all very much a balancing act, and you gotta have something in you. As others have said here, having none of anything is bad. The reason anti-androgens exist is because testosterone is going to overshadow anything else that's present. That's just how it works. Trans women have to block that first, and then add in estrogen or whatever. Trans men don't have to block anything, because testosterone will overshadow any other naturally occurring effects. I guess in a way, it's kind of like female is the default. If you don't do anything, you get female. To get male, you have to activate all kinds of stuff, and so to undo it, you have to deactivate all kinds of stuff.

Which makes non-binary transition a real trick, and very dependent on what you're really looking to do. I'm not a doctor of course, but I suppose in theory, as long as you had a combination of testosterone/estrogen that added up to 100%, you'd be ok. That's a gross oversimplification I'm sure, but I think it shows the point here. So if you were looking for a non-binary transition, would you want like a 70-30? 40-60? What split would give you the effects you want?

Arguably with hormones, we're talking more about biological sex, which tends to have a lot less wiggle room. And arguably, there's no such thing as a naturally occurring, biological non-binary sex (I'm not including intersex, because I don't think it's fair to lump the two together. Also I'm making distinction between gender and sex). So it's just not as easy or straightforward as a binary transition where we know, biologically speaking, what the result is supposed to look like (within some acceptable range of course).

Ultimately, I think that means two things. First, it's gonna be trickier on all levels. I wouldn't even know where to begin personally. I know there's a pretty good website/blog out there by a neutrois person, Micah I think their name was? I think the website was actually neutrois.me. Worth a look. Secondly, it means you'll get to really have a ton of control over your course. Which means you can figure out exactly what you want, but also may need to take responsibility for making missteps along the way.

[AveSatanas]

I'm sorry I barked about doctors and medical advice. I had a friend who seriously considered getting illegal hormones and she told me all about her plans and the advice she was getting off the web. She ended up finding a doc who would prescribe her stuff properly but she scared me shitless in the process. So I'm a little bit touchy on the subject of web advice and hormones.

As for non-binary transitions this is my favorite site

http://neutrois.me/ It's a neutrois pioneer named Micah, They just posted about their experiences with low dose Testosterone

[Kappamaki]

I found it odd, when thinking about it, that I hear of androgyne blockers but not an equivalent for the other end of the spectrum. If low hormone levels are dangerous for female bodies, then why may male bodies take androgyne blockers without taking hormonal supplements of female hormones? Or at least, I thought that was an option. Now I'm doubting myself...

Low sex hormone levels are dangerous for anyone - estrogen and testosterone both serve to maintain bone density and prevent osteoporosis, and having minimal levels of both for a long term would require some other drug to work on their behalf.

And the reason a lot of feminizing effects in AMAB people can be achieved simply with anti-androgens or blockers is that they require testoesterone to maintain not going into effect during/after puberty. It's not estrogen that pushes fat to the hips, it's testosterone that keeps it in the gut, etc.

[Heart]

There is Arimidex (Anastrozole). It blocks the conversion of T into E2 by inhibiting aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone into estradiol [1] (the main and most powerful estrogen).

This happens mainly in ovaries, and also to some extent in your adipose (fat) tissue.

The only way to make estrogen is to first make testosterone. In testicles, the T will be an end product (but in adipose tissues, even in men, some T gets converted to E2 but that is OK because some E2, estrogen, is required for health), but in ovaries the aromatization of testosterone to estrogen (estradiol) is also done, and estradiol is an end product.

Arimidex significantly reduces the conversion of T into E2[2]. This means that ovaries and fat cells will produce very little estrogen. Feminization will be greatly reduced.

There can be side effects, but I am not an expert in that.

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2228389/figure/fig03/

[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2228389/table/tbl1/

Thank you Kelly! I was secretly hoping you'd stumble upon this thread, you always seem to be a fountain of knowledge.

I'm sorry I barked about doctors and medical advice. I had a friend who seriously considered getting illegal hormones and she told me all about her plans and the advice she was getting off the web. She ended up finding a doc who would prescribe her stuff properly but she scared me shitless in the process. So I'm a little bit touchy on the subject of web advice and hormones.

As for non-binary transitions this is my favorite site

http://neutrois.me/ It's a neutrois pioneer named Micah, They just posted about their experiences with low dose Testosterone

No need to apologize, I was just clarifying. You didn't come off as snappy at all, and that must have been a bit scary. Illegal anything means no regulations, and I would be concerned about a friend in that situation too!

I shall look into that blog. I have now opened it in a tab on my computer, for reading the next time I have a moment. After no less than two suggestions, it is worth a solid investigation!

Thank you everyone for the words. I find myself swinging in and out of dysphoria, but it just sometimes feels like I need to do something. As fluid as my gender is, I may never be perfectly happy, but maybe I can be closer than I am now? It is with that hope that I am trying to gather people's experiences and options. Maybe I'll even pursue an appointment with a gender therapist one day... I'm naturally slow-moving, but that doesn't mean I'm hopeless :)

[AveSatanas]

I sincerely wish you all the best with your quest to live your truth. "The hardest thing in the world to be is yourself." CiCi (and she's not kidding.)

[nerdperson777]

There is Arimidex (Anastrozole). It blocks the conversion of T into E2 by inhibiting aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone into estradiol [1] (the main and most powerful estrogen).

This happens mainly in ovaries, and also to some extent in your adipose (fat) tissue.

The only way to make estrogen is to first make testosterone. In testicles, the T will be an end product (but in adipose tissues, even in men, some T gets converted to E2 but that is OK because some E2, estrogen, is required for health), but in ovaries the aromatization of testosterone to estrogen (estradiol) is also done, and estradiol is an end product.

Arimidex significantly reduces the conversion of T into E2[2]. This means that ovaries and fat cells will produce very little estrogen. Feminization will be greatly reduced.

There can be side effects, but I am not an expert in that.

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2228389/figure/fig03/

[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2228389/table/tbl1/

Thank you Kelly! I was secretly hoping you'd stumble upon this thread, you always seem to be a fountain of knowledge.

I'm sorry I barked about doctors and medical advice. I had a friend who seriously considered getting illegal hormones and she told me all about her plans and the advice she was getting off the web. She ended up finding a doc who would prescribe her stuff properly but she scared me shitless in the process. So I'm a little bit touchy on the subject of web advice and hormones.

As for non-binary transitions this is my favorite site

http://neutrois.me/ It's a neutrois pioneer named Micah, They just posted about their experiences with low dose Testosterone

No need to apologize, I was just clarifying. You didn't come off as snappy at all, and that must have been a bit scary. Illegal anything means no regulations, and I would be concerned about a friend in that situation too!

I shall look into that blog. I have now opened it in a tab on my computer, for reading the next time I have a moment. After no less than two suggestions, it is worth a solid investigation!

Thank you everyone for the words. I find myself swinging in and out of dysphoria, but it just sometimes feels like I need to do something. As fluid as my gender is, I may never be perfectly happy, but maybe I can be closer than I am now? It is with that hope that I am trying to gather people's experiences and options. Maybe I'll even pursue an appointment with a gender therapist one day... I'm naturally slow-moving, but that doesn't mean I'm hopeless :)

Learning biology from physicists, if anyone asks what we do on AVEN, it's perfectly normal!

And I do that too, open tabs on my computer, and read it when I get extra time. (Then I don't and I get a million tabs. No seriously, I have 39 open atm, 18 of them I said I would go back to.)

I guess I can't really add to what everyone has already said. When I was researching puberty blockers, I was wondering if it was too late for me. I'm not really sure since when I look at the Tanner stages (I think that's what it is?), I'm not even at the last stage, but that might just be my body not really growing much, even though I'm supposedly a physically developmentally normal person for my biological sex. And I have not heard of DFAB hormone blockers even though there's always stories about hormone blockers, but not specifically estrogen blockers. I know T blockers definitely exist since my friend takes them. I have thought about having low hormone levels but everyone did say that's dangerous. I even wonder now if I have low hormone levels because I definitely don't have much strength but at the same time, my body isn't very feminine, other than slight chest and butt.

I'll take T eventually, hopefully within the next two years, and I'll tell you then. I asked a friend, who said they got hairier and gained weight while I only noticed the deeper voice.

[Kelly]

puberty blocker

The original post asked for a drug that blocks the production of estrogen (E2). That could be done by an aromatase inhibitor.

But puberty blocking in DFAB is the same as for DMAB. Typically, this is done with a GnRH analogue (and specifically, an analogue that is a GnRH antagonist such as Lupron or Zoladex).

Let me draw a hormone feedback loop for DFAB:

This is somewhat simplified, but the hypothalamus secretes the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). This is used by the pituitary (which is a master controller of many kinds of hormones, not just sex hormones). The GnRH gives a positive feedback and the pituitary releases follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH). These help the ovaries prepare eggs and make several hormones, including estrogen and progesterone, as well as inhibin.

Inhibin is a feedback to the pituitary to state that it has had enough FSH and that it can throttle down the FSH that it produces. It can also release activin, which is a positive feedback to the pituitary and tells it that it should produce more FSH.

Estrogen (E2, estradiol), as well as progesterone in some ways also acts as a negative feedback to both the pituitary (to reduce LH) and the hypothalamus (to reduce GnRH). But this feedback can actually change to positive depending on the time of the month.

So, GnRH causes the pituitary to release LH and FSH, and that causes the ovaries to produce sex hormones as well as prepare eggs. In releasing sex hormones and others, the ovaries send feedback that it is doing its job and the hypothalamus and pituitary slow down releasing GnRH, and LH and FSH.

This is similar in DMAB:

LH works on the Leydig cells ("L") to produce testosterone. FSH works on the Sertoli cells ("S"). And inhibin and testosterone provide negative feedback to the pituitary and hypothalamus.

In the use of a GnRH analogue (antagonist in this case) to block puberty, the actual mode of operation can be slightly complicated, and it depends on the drug used. To be simple, the analogue blocks the GnRH receptors in the pituitary, so they do not receive the actual GnRH. In turn, they do not release LH or FSH and the ovaries do not release eggs nor produce estrogen/progesterone, and the testes do not release sperm nor produce testosterone.

A simple diagram of a hormone blocker is below. In this case, I drew one for the cells that produce LH:

The GnRH analogue fits into the receptor, but since it is not shaped exactly like GnRH, it does not trigger the receptor. It is like a key that fits a lock but cannot turn the lock to open the door.

For blocking puberty for DFAB and DMAB, the GnRH antagonist prevents the release of the pituitary's hormones that tell the gonads to function, and puberty is delayed as long as the patient is on the drug.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

.

For blocking puberty for DFAB and DMAB, the GnRH antagonist prevents the release of the pituitary's hormones that tell the gonads to function, and puberty is delayed as long as the patient is on the drug.

As usual, *great* graphics, Kelly! Thanks!

It's really amazing when you find out that the difference between estradiol and testosterone molecules isn't really that much. They are built on the same carbon 'skeleton'. One of the people I worked with years ago was someone who had a PhD. in biochemistry. One of the things he taught me about was 'designer rats' and how scientists used controlled breeding to produce lab rats susceptible to certain genetic disorders. And some things about my own faulty genetics.

The micro world is just full of wonders, isn't it? I hope the human race can put down the swords and pick up microscopes and gene splicers long enough to cure ancient ills. With a little time left over to figure out how to deflect asteroids with Earth's name on them.

[Heart]

Wow, Kelly!! Once again, you amaze me with your explanatory powers. You have a talent for explaining things in plain language that makes it easy to understand, thank you