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Understanding Gender Identity


Akira Jumps

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Akira Jumps

I would like to start this post firstly by saying that I am 100% honestly looking for insight into something I don't understand. I am not disclaiming those who are non-binary/non-cis in gender. I would simply like to hear person experience from those who have genders that don't match their sex.

As far as Wikipedia, Dictionary.com, and GenderSpectrum.org are concerned, gender identity is 'one's personal experience of one's own gender. This is generally described as one's private sense of being a man or a woman, consisting primarily of the acceptance of membership into a category of people: male or female.'

My interpretation of this article is that gender identity is tied to how society sees female and male. Being a cis-genderless, I don't understand the need to categorize as one or the other, regardless of sex. If someone could explain this to me, I would appreciate it greatly.

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I would like to start this post firstly by saying that I am 100% honestly looking for insight into something I don't understand. I am not disclaiming those who are non-binary/non-cis in gender. I would simply like to hear person experience from those who have genders that don't match their sex.

As far as Wikipedia, Dictionary.com, and GenderSpectrum.org are concerned, gender identity is 'one's personal experience of one's own gender. This is generally described as one's private sense of being a man or a woman, consisting primarily of the acceptance of membership into a category of people: male or female.'

My interpretation of this article is that gender identity is tied to how society sees female and male. Being a cis-genderless, I don't understand the need to categorize as one or the other, regardless of sex. If someone could explain this to me, I would appreciate it greatly.

All I could possibly explain to you is that you're absolutely right. There is no need to categorize these things. :) Unless we're suppose to treat different categories differently, value them more or less, then what's it matter?

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Maybe it's just 'naturist philosophy' but when everyone's naked assumptions of people because of their style of dress are gone. Yet when you return to clothed-society aren't you making snap judgements about people based on how they dress? Don't you regard someone in business attire more favorably than someone who loks like a homeless person? Yet when everyone's nude you can't do that any more.

As it is by 'stripping off' all the various other kinds of labels. If I tell you I'm American, aren't you then judging me by however you think about America and Americans? If I saw I'm white, don't do make assumptions about me because of that as well? Poor, rich, liberal conservative, all these labels enable us to prejudge others often very unfairly. But because some want us to like them more than others we slap labels onto ourselves and everyone else. So now we have 'My/Our side' and 'You/Their side.' and we're immediately in opposition to each other.

I just think it's better socially to avoid labels where ever possible.

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A lot of the time, self-categorization as trans can happen in order to gain access to certain treatments - either medical or just social treatment by others - that mitigate dysphoria or are just preferable to what one would have as cis. For instance, let's say we have a trans man who feels awful when treated like a girl, and doesn't like certain things about his body. By identifying as a trans man, he can gain access to medical procedures to make him more comfortable and can explain himself to others in a way that makes it clear to them to not treat him as female.

Also, a secret: trans people tend to not actually feel gender and be able to explain their gender and be certain about it any more than cis people. They might act more confident than they are as self-defense, knowing that otherwise cis people will use their slight uncertainties as an opportunity to attack and paint them as thoroughly confused delusional.

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I have a problem with the whole "social construct" theory of gender. Most people of a given sex tend to relate to the world in a similar manner even when external factors are controlled for- hence being cisgender. Gender is a matter of how one relates to the world.

I have never related to the world like other females. Interacting with them has also always been complicated, as I don't think or act like them. Actual dysphoria, for me, didn't crop up until I had sex... It never felt "right" and I couldn't ever allow someone to use those parts again. This isn't a matter of being ace, as I would definitively be demisexual if I had male genitals.

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butterflydreams

Also, a secret: trans people tend to not actually feel gender and be able to explain their gender and be certain about it any more than cis people. They might act more confident than they are as self-defense, knowing that otherwise cis people will use their slight uncertainties as an opportunity to attack and paint them as thoroughly confused delusional.

I wish I had known about this sooner. It would've saved me a lot of mental stress. I'm certainly not shy about saying around here that, I just know. I know that's not terribly helpful to others or people trying to understand, but it beats furthering a narrative.

I have a problem with the whole "social construct" theory of gender. Most people of a given sex tend to relate to the world in a similar manner even when external factors are controlled for- hence being cisgender. Gender is a matter of how one relates to the world.

I have never related to the world like other females. Interacting with them has also always been complicated, as I don't think or act like them. Actual dysphoria, for me, didn't crop up until I had sex... It never felt "right" and I couldn't ever allow someone to use those parts again. This isn't a matter of being ace, as I would definitively be demisexual if I had male genitals.

As with so many things, I don't think it's a matter of being all "social construct" or not. I think there's a lot of interaction between all these things. I mean, the social construct part of it is what made stuff so weird for me for so many years. Holding on at the fringes of being a guy. Having just enough guy friends to keep me "in the game". That's what I was "supposed" to do so it seemed.

And then there's the intrinsic part. So they were kind of doing battle with each other.

I think I know exactly what you mean when you say you didn't relate to the world like other females. It's a weird experience I think. I'm glad that there's another person here who feels their ace-ness is at least partly tied up in this stuff. While I haven't had sex, the thought of me doing it as I am makes me feel horribly sad, repulsed, upset...just not very good. It was kind of a breakthrough for me when I dropped all the preconceptions I had, and self-judgements for a moment and asked, "how would I feel in a straight heterosexual relationship as a woman?" Answer? Pretty damn great. Like it was worth bother. Worth pursuing. Worth wanting. I know that's not a widely shared experience, but it is mine, and weird as it feels sometimes, I know it's true.

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I have a problem with the whole "social construct" theory of gender. Most people of a given sex tend to relate to the world in a similar manner even when external factors are controlled for- hence being cisgender. Gender is a matter of how one relates to the world.

I have never related to the world like other females. Interacting with them has also always been complicated, as I don't think or act like them. Actual dysphoria, for me, didn't crop up until I had sex... It never felt "right" and I couldn't ever allow someone to use those parts again. This isn't a matter of being ace, as I would definitively be demisexual if I had male genitals.

But, where exactly is the evidence for that? There's also evidence against the idea that males and females are different besides from the obvious according to a essentialist? In my experience, I see 0 convincing reasons why I should believe they are different.
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pitchblackonyx
This is generally described as one's private sense of being a man or a woman, consisting primarily of the acceptance of membership into a category of people: male or female.'

i don't hae a private sens of beig a man or a woman. n idea what that's like at all. never have understood that.

My interpretation of this article is that gender identity is tied to how society sees female and male. Being a cis-genderless, I don't understand the need to categorize as one or the other, regardless of sex. If someone could explain this to me, I would appreciate it greatly.

and when no one is treating me as the gende rthey think i am ,i don't understand the need to categorise iether.

but when people keep treating me as that gender, behaving around me as if i am, rtying to help my self-consfidence by empahsising the bits of my body that people think are "good looking" or the "right shape" for that gender, i hate it. i'm used to it, but nevertheless i hate it. when i finally get a break from it, and dress ina way that neutralises my appearance as much as possible, then i get such a sense of relief.

i avoid heavily-gendered sports and activities. i avoid sport or activities requiring differet dress for male and female. i haven't swim regu;ary for over half my life yet i love swimmingunderwater. i just can't bring myself to do it because i will get gendered and that distresses me too much.

if i could do these things without being distressed i would. i have tried. and tried. and it made thigns worse.

if only people would JSUT STOP with the gendering then i wouldn't be in a almost constant state of stress and turmoil.

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But, where exactly is the evidence for that? There's also evidence against the idea that males and females are different besides from the obvious according to a essentialist? In my experience, I see 0 convincing reasons why I should believe they are different.

There have been studies done where brains scans of cisgender people and their corresponding transgender counterparts show similar neurological patterns (trans men have brains that fire like cis males and vice versa).

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[quote name="Hadley167" post="1061340941" timestamp="1438302424"

Also, a secret: trans people tend to not actually feel gender and be able to explain their gender and be certain about it any more than cis people.

As with so many things, I don't think it's a matter of being all "social construct" or not. I think there's a lot of interaction between all these things. I mean, the social construct part of it is what made stuff so weird for me for so many years. Holding on at the fringes of being a guy. Having just enough guy friends to keep me "in the game". That's what I was "supposed" to do so it seemed.

And then there's the intrinsic part. So they were kind of doing battle with each other.

I think I know exactly what you mean when you say you didn't relate to the world like other females. It's a weird experience I think. I'm glad that there's another person here who feels their ace-ness is at least partly tied up in this stuff. While I haven't had sex, the thought of me doing it as I am makes me feel horribly sad, repulsed, upset...just not very good. It was kind of a breakthrough for me when I dropped all the preconceptions I had, and self-judgements for a moment and asked, "how would I feel in a straight heterosexual relationship as a woman?" Answer? Pretty damn great. Like it was worth bother. Worth pursuing. Worth wanting. I know that's not a widely shared experience, but it is mine, and weird as it feels sometimes, I know it's true.

Not having traditional dysphoria is part of what left me in the dark. Since what I saw in the mirror didn't bother me, I never questioned why there was always this discord between myself and other females. I assumed I was one and, therefore, my actions and thoughts must follow as also being female.. So why did other females act in ways that perplexed my version of logic and treat me like something was wrong with me (but they could never tell me what)? Now I don't even make an effort to socialize with women because it's just a minefield that I can't negotiate and having to constantly walk on eggshells is exhausting.

As far as being ace- I'd be that even without the gender issues (I just have no programming to find someone physically attractive until I am attracted to them emotionally and intellectually). But the gender part makes up 100% of the reason why I'm sex-repulsed.

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Akira Jumps

So, basically, everyone feels pretty neutral about gender? Could I ask someone who's had a sex change or a physical change done: why would you change the biological parts? Why is it important to do this? Again, I am NOT trying to be offensive. I am trying to understand. If you are offended, I would like to apologize here and now and will drop the subject. But the idea of gender identity sort of confuses me, as a cis-genderless.

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Calligraphette_Coe

Also, a secret: trans people tend to not actually feel gender and be able to explain their gender and be certain about it any more than cis people. They might act more confident than they are as self-defense, knowing that otherwise cis people will use their slight uncertainties as an opportunity to attack and paint them as thoroughly confused delusional.

It's almost like Copper trying to assert its primacy over Silicon by saying Wire beats Transistor in a game not unlike Paper/Rock/Scissors.

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So, basically, everyone feels pretty neutral about gender? Could I ask someone who's had a sex change or a physical change done: why would you change the biological parts? Why is it important to do this? Again, I am NOT trying to be offensive. I am trying to understand. If you are offended, I would like to apologize here and now and will drop the subject. But the idea of gender identity sort of confuses me, as a cis-genderless.

Well, for me, despite my sense of gender being probably just as wishy-washy gendery-wendery as yours (I'm guessing this; since gender's subjective, maybe it's actually more concrete for one of us than the other; I vaguely expect that me being non-binary and you cis-genderless means it's less tangible for me, but that's just conjecture), I feel somewhat more like I'd rather be identified by others as one binary gender than the other. At the same time, I'd rather have one sex hormone going through my blood than the other and would rather have the secondary sexual characteristics deriving from that hormone than the other - partially for the purpose of 'passing' as a gender, but also partially for its own sake. In a way, it's about self-betterment and self-fulfillment.

Also, a secret: trans people tend to not actually feel gender and be able to explain their gender and be certain about it any more than cis people. They might act more confident than they are as self-defense, knowing that otherwise cis people will use their slight uncertainties as an opportunity to attack and paint them as thoroughly confused delusional.

It's almost like Copper trying to assert its primacy over Silicon by saying Wire beats Transistor in a game not unlike Paper/Rock/Scissors.

... Okay, Zen, I'm going to have to admit that there are times that I don't understand your metaphors, and this is one of those times.

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Calligraphette_Coe

So, basically, everyone feels pretty neutral about gender? Could I ask someone who's had a sex change or a physical change done: why would you change the biological parts? Why is it important to do this? Again, I am NOT trying to be offensive. I am trying to understand. If you are offended, I would like to apologize here and now and will drop the subject. But the idea of gender identity sort of confuses me, as a cis-genderless.

Well, for me, despite my sense of gender being probably just as wishy-washy gendery-wendery as yours (I'm guessing this; since gender's subjective, maybe it's actually more concrete for one of us than the other; I vaguely expect that me being non-binary and you cis-genderless means it's less tangible for me, but that's just conjecture), I feel somewhat more like I'd rather be identified by others as one binary gender than the other. At the same time, I'd rather have one sex hormone going through my blood than the other and would rather have the secondary sexual characteristics deriving from that hormone than the other - partially for the purpose of 'passing' as a gender, but also partially for its own sake. In a way, it's about self-betterment and self-fulfillment.

Also, a secret: trans people tend to not actually feel gender and be able to explain their gender and be certain about it any more than cis people. They might act more confident than they are as self-defense, knowing that otherwise cis people will use their slight uncertainties as an opportunity to attack and paint them as thoroughly confused delusional.

It's almost like Copper trying to assert its primacy over Silicon by saying Wire beats Transistor in a game not unlike Paper/Rock/Scissors.

... Okay, Zen, I'm going to have to admit that there are times that I don't understand your metaphors, and this is one of those times.

Mea culpa, that was me thinking out loud.

Copper, silver and platinum are excellent conductors. Silicon and other elements need some impurities added to them to become semiconductors. At first glance, one might be tempted to think 'Of what use is a 'semi' conductor'? Whereas transsexuals would be thought to be excellent conductors of dysphoria such that they pass it through with the least resistance and heat losses, and cisgendered people are insulated from dysphoria by virtue of offering almost an infinite resistance to it, what of we who are the 'semiconductors'? In my personal case, I think I'd be a Kinsey Six transperson were it not for the 'impurities' caused by my medical anomalies. They don't conduct the dysphoria well at all, and there's a lot of heat dissipation in my psyche because of it. My androgyny makes me a transistor instead of a wire.

But, just as there is a place for conductors and insulators in the transmission and manifestation of genders, so is there a place for some of us who aren't....either. We still have a useful place in the human universe and the Trans Galaxy, even though we might be on ellipitical orbits on different planes around a star like comets.

We just have a different path to the proverbial Peace that Passes All Understanding about things Gender.

May we all find what we need most.

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Mea culpa, that was me thinking out loud.

Copper, silver and platinum are excellent conductors. Silicon and other elements need some impurities added to them to become semiconductors. At first glance, one might be tempted to think 'Of what use is a 'semi' conductor'? Whereas transsexuals would be thought to be excellent conductors of dysphoria such that they pass it through with the least resistance and heat losses, and cisgendered people are insulated from dysphoria by virtue of offering almost an infinite resistance to it, what of we who are the 'semiconductors'? In my personal case, I think I'd be a Kinsey Six transperson were it not for the 'impurities' caused by my medical anomalies. They don't conduct the dysphoria well at all, and there's a lot of heat dissipation in my psyche because of it. My androgyny makes me a transistor instead of a wire.

But, just as there is a place for conductors and insulators in the transmission and manifestation of genders, so is there a place for some of us who aren't....either. We still have a useful place in the human universe and the Trans Galaxy, even though we might be on ellipitical orbits on different planes around a star like comets.

We just have a different path to the proverbial Peace that Passes All Understanding about things Gender.

May we all find what we need most.

But transistors are SO USEFUL!!! We would have... like, basically no technology at all without them.

And we would have like... basically no humanity as it stands right now without variation. ;)

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Calligraphette_Coe

Mea culpa, that was me thinking out loud.

Copper, silver and platinum are excellent conductors. Silicon and other elements need some impurities added to them to become semiconductors. At first glance, one might be tempted to think 'Of what use is a 'semi' conductor'? Whereas transsexuals would be thought to be excellent conductors of dysphoria such that they pass it through with the least resistance and heat losses, and cisgendered people are insulated from dysphoria by virtue of offering almost an infinite resistance to it, what of we who are the 'semiconductors'? In my personal case, I think I'd be a Kinsey Six transperson were it not for the 'impurities' caused by my medical anomalies. They don't conduct the dysphoria well at all, and there's a lot of heat dissipation in my psyche because of it. My androgyny makes me a transistor instead of a wire.

But, just as there is a place for conductors and insulators in the transmission and manifestation of genders, so is there a place for some of us who aren't....either. We still have a useful place in the human universe and the Trans Galaxy, even though we might be on ellipitical orbits on different planes around a star like comets.

We just have a different path to the proverbial Peace that Passes All Understanding about things Gender.

May we all find what we need most.

But transistors are SO USEFUL!!! We would have... like, basically no technology at all without them.

And we would have like... basically no humanity as it stands right now without variation. ;)

There used to be a joke about the ENIAC in the form of an advertisement:

For Sale- ENIAC computer- lab is switching over to wood heat

Now I'm reading about Dirac electrons in graphene and samarium hexaboride and how these discoveries will make quantum computing possible. Or single atom transistors.

To many people, the things I see all the time that seem mundane to me, like 500+ MPa water jet cutters making intricate machine parts from steel, are astounding. I guess it's also why transness and gender fluidity puzzle them too? They see but find it hard to believe?

All this in my lifetime, which in cosmic terms, is not even a wink of an eye!

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But, where exactly is the evidence for that? There's also evidence against the idea that males and females are different besides from the obvious according to a essentialist? In my experience, I see 0 convincing reasons why I should believe they are different.

There have been studies done where brains scans of cisgender people and their corresponding transgender counterparts show similar neurological patterns (trans men have brains that fire like cis males and vice versa).

Right, and while you're at citing brain studies as an attempt to prove that they are different in behaviors, please be aware that two different computers with 2 different parts can still function at a even level. That is an analogy that can used to show that physical differences does not neccessarily lead to performance differences.
Here's my source that shows that males and females aren't that different and it shows the results are completely contrary to how you conclude that males and females perceive the world and behave.
Evaluating gender similarities and differences using metasynthesis.
By Zell, Ethan; Krizan, Zlatan; Teeter, Sabrina R.
American Psychologist, Vol 70(1), Jan 2015, 10-20.
Just from the abstract alone -
Abstract
Despite the common lay assumption that males and females are profoundly different, Hyde (2005) used data from 46 meta-analyses to demonstrate that males and females are highly similar. Nonetheless, the gender similarities hypothesis has remained controversial. Since Hyde’s provocative report, there has been an explosion of meta-analytic interest in psychological gender differences. We utilized this enormous collection of 106 meta-analyses and 386 individual meta-analytic effects to reevaluate the gender similarities hypothesis. Furthermore, we employed a novel data-analytic approach called metasynthesis (Zell & Krizan, 2014) to estimate the average difference between males and females and to explore moderators of gender differences. The average, absolute difference between males and females across domains was relatively small (d = 0.21, SD = 0.14), with the majority of effects being either small (46%) or very small (39%). Magnitude of differences fluctuated somewhat as a function of the psychological domain (e.g., cognitive variables, social and personality variables, well-being), but remained largely constant across age, culture, and generations. These findings provide compelling support for the gender similarities hypothesis, but also underscore conditions under which gender differences are most pronounced. (PsycINFO Database Record © 2015 APA, all rights reserved)
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pitchblackonyx

i could be wrong, but i think those studies shwo that mael and efmale brains a wired differnelty. not that the end performance is any different.

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i could be wrong, but i think those studies shwo that mael and efmale brains a wired differnelty. not that the end performance is any different.

Chardog claimed that men and women acts differently, and I asked Chardog for evidence for it. Chardog provided no good evidence to suggest that the end performance is any different.

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whocaresthough

It's kind of confusing, TBH. It's like seeing the front page of a menu at a restaurant, but you can't turn the page; there's not a way yet. But of course there's something behind it; you can't have just hamburgers and chicken, you've eaten more than that before! So it's like having something, having the ability to have it, but what you have is unexplainable because you, yourself, have nothing to compare it to.

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Well, for me, despite my sense of gender being probably just as wishy-washy gendery-wendery as yours (I'm guessing this; since gender's subjective, maybe it's actually more concrete for one of us than the other; I vaguely expect that me being non-binary and you cis-genderless means it's less tangible for me, but that's just conjecture), I feel somewhat more like I'd rather be identified by others as one binary gender than the other. At the same time, I'd rather have one sex hormone going through my blood than the other and would rather have the secondary sexual characteristics deriving from that hormone than the other - partially for the purpose of 'passing' as a gender, but also partially for its own sake. In a way, it's about self-betterment and self-fulfillment.

It's crazy! I'm never sure of what I'm saying about my gender. It's too complicated. I want out! I need air! Who the hell made gender?!

But seriously: I can't tell too what gender identity is. Mine is too elusive, it's a crazy, many-aspected rollercoaster (it's tiring, anyone help me out? Help?). A good explanation I'v ecome up somewhere over here was "sense of belonging to the group of males and to the group of females".

Being a cis-genderless, I don't understand the need to categorize as one or the other, regardless of sex.

You see, you're different than most of the society. Most people treat gender as the most obvious thing in the world. It's somehow important for them.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, for me, despite my sense of gender being probably just as wishy-washy gendery-wendery as yours (I'm guessing this; since gender's subjective, maybe it's actually more concrete for one of us than the other; I vaguely expect that me being non-binary and you cis-genderless means it's less tangible for me, but that's just conjecture), I feel somewhat more like I'd rather be identified by others as one binary gender than the other. At the same time, I'd rather have one sex hormone going through my blood than the other and would rather have the secondary sexual characteristics deriving from that hormone than the other - partially for the purpose of 'passing' as a gender, but also partially for its own sake. In a way, it's about self-betterment and self-fulfillment.

It's crazy! I'm never sure of what I'm saying about my gender. It's too complicated. I want out! I need air! Who the hell made gender?!

But seriously: I can't tell too what gender identity is. Mine is too elusive, it's a crazy, many-aspected rollercoaster (it's tiring, anyone help me out? Help?). A good explanation I'v ecome up somewhere over here was "sense of belonging to the group of males and to the group of females".

Being a cis-genderless, I don't understand the need to categorize as one or the other, regardless of sex.

You see, you're different than most of the society. Most people treat gender as the most obvious thing in the world. It's somehow important for them.

But I want to know why it's important. Why so many people work so hard to undergo sex change, hormone shots, name changes to something more fitting for their intended gender. I mean, I've changed my name because I didn't like the sound of my original one. It had less to do with gender and more to do with aesthetic. I want to know why being one gender or another is important - or one sex or another for that matter.

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Calligraphette_Coe

Well, for me, despite my sense of gender being probably just as wishy-washy gendery-wendery as yours (I'm guessing this; since gender's subjective, maybe it's actually more concrete for one of us than the other; I vaguely expect that me being non-binary and you cis-genderless means it's less tangible for me, but that's just conjecture), I feel somewhat more like I'd rather be identified by others as one binary gender than the other. At the same time, I'd rather have one sex hormone going through my blood than the other and would rather have the secondary sexual characteristics deriving from that hormone than the other - partially for the purpose of 'passing' as a gender, but also partially for its own sake. In a way, it's about self-betterment and self-fulfillment.

It's crazy! I'm never sure of what I'm saying about my gender. It's too complicated. I want out! I need air! Who the hell made gender?!

But seriously: I can't tell too what gender identity is. Mine is too elusive, it's a crazy, many-aspected rollercoaster (it's tiring, anyone help me out? Help?). A good explanation I'v ecome up somewhere over here was "sense of belonging to the group of males and to the group of females".

Being a cis-genderless, I don't understand the need to categorize as one or the other, regardless of sex.

You see, you're different than most of the society. Most people treat gender as the most obvious thing in the world. It's somehow important for them.

But I want to know why it's important. Why so many people work so hard to undergo sex change, hormone shots, name changes to something more fitting for their intended gender. I mean, I've changed my name because I didn't like the sound of my original one. It had less to do with gender and more to do with aesthetic. I want to know why being one gender or another is important - or one sex or another for that matter.

It's like asking 'why be nice to people'. Backstabbing, sociopathic jerks are often more charming and get further in life, so why be nice?

Because it's the right thing to do. And that's why people do what seems like a lot of trouble for not much in return. It is a desperate attempt to get right with oneself, to feel they can, at long last, have a nice life devoid of the sorrows of dysphoria.

But let me be even starker. When I was a teen, I was sexually assaulted by a group of teenage boys while their sisters looked on for part of it. They overpowered me and held me down while they removed my clothes and then did .... things.

And because I'm gender variant, people said I had it coming. And they got away with something they would have ended up in jail for had they done it to an XX woman. They said I must have secretly enjoyed it, if you can imagine that hurt that that caused.

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@ZenPlacebo, thank you for the analogy. Because it feels right, and that it is a right that must be worked towards. That makes sense. Thank you.

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