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Why do people assume Asexual means no sex or no sexual drive?


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Something I thought was simple, yet seems to be very complicated. :unsure:

I like, no I love these 2 posts (in spoiler because they're big) :

I was reading through the finding people sexy thread and it really showed off the two camps that are starting to form with asexuality. The first camp is like the person who started the thread who says they don't find anyone sexually attractive at all, but might still have sex with their partner sometimes cause they think the sex itself is fun. And the second camp, people that found plenty of people sexy, but never wanted to have sex for any reason.

Now, I think it's safe to say I'm part of camp number 1. I've never found anyone sexually attractive(so I'm asexual), but sex doesn't seem bad to me. Now, of course I have the plus of never having sex, so I've likely built it up in my mind(it might very well suck). But, I still find it interesting, I just don't relate it to others cause I don't find other people sexy. But since I find it interesting my mind thinks, it's fine for an asexual to enjoy sex.

This seems to cause a lot of conflict between camps 1 and 2 because camp 2 feels like they DO find people sexy, but since they still don't want to have sex, they are using that as the base to describe their sexuality. This, honestly, is fine to do, but the people in camp 1 are using their attraction to define their sexuality.

Then we got people in camp 3 that don't find anyone sexy and aren't interested in sex at all and are wondering why everyone else is fighting(sorry camp 3! You my bros!)

So, the fight simply breaks down to this.

Camp 1: I don't find anyone sexy! But sex sounds fun so I have it with my partner sometimes. My partner is sexual and we both have a blast, but I'm just into the act.

Camp 2: But we find people sexy we just don't want sex with our partners! You do! So that's not being asexual.

Camp 1: But I thought asexual was about attraction not desire?

Camp 2: Well we feel plenty of attraction. We're not attraction void! And since we do find people really hot being asexual must be about desire.

Camp 1: That's dumb.

Camp 2: No you're dumb.

Camp 3: Oh for the love of God, you're both dumb!

And around and around we go. We seem to be talking completely different dialogs and it struck me that, well, maybe we are.

Just go with me on this. What if attraction is just like sexuality. What if it works on a spectrum. On one end you just think someone is meh, and then at the very other end you find someone sexually attractive. Well, if that's the case, it would only make sense that there is something RIGHT before sexual attraction. Something that feels just like it, but isn't quite the same thing. So, you would see someone, think they are sexy, might even get aroused by them and such, but since it's RIGHT before sexual attraction it just stops there and you aren't sexually attracted enough to move any farther with them. If someone had this high version of attraction, that did not result in actually wanting to have sex with someone, then of course that person would relate not wanting to have sex with anyone to being asexual and of course they would think an asexual that thinks sex is fun is just silly. To them they do feel sexual attraction, it just doesn't result in wanting sex, so they use no desire to define themselves.

So, isn't it more easy to believe camp 1 that camp 2 isn't making stuff up. They simply experience attraction higher then you do but don't relate it to sex. We could say this is intense attraction, or mistaken attraction.

Now as for camp 1. Well if an asexual can have a fetish for kink, or animal role play, or any other crazy fetish there is, it's not that hard to buy that an asexual could have a sex based fetish and find something about having sex fun. Just like with any other fetish, it's the activity the asexual is into and not being sexually into someone else.

Camp 3: But wouldn't that make both camp 1 and 2 grey?

Nope! Because neither one is actually experiencing sexual attraction. Sure, someone from camp 1 or 2 could call themselves grey cause it makes them feel more comfortable, but they don't have to. It's up to them to decide what they are.

Camp 2 and 3: But doesn't suggesting some asexual people might like sex some times put other asexual people at risk! People will think all asexual people want to have sex and our sexuality will be a joke!

Nope. Anyone that assumes someone wants to have sex without asking is a dick to start with. It doesn't matter that a few asexual people might have a sex based fetish, that person would still be a dick. Anyone that actually respects our sexuality will find out after reading up on us that every asexual is different and a lot don't want to have sex and compromise is always important, as is talking things out.

So, in closing, people from camp 1 are asexual people with a sex based fetish. People from camp 2 have a high from of attraction, but still don't find other people attractive in a sexual way so don't want to have sex. And camp 3 still doesn't care. We've all been describing our own sexualities instead of listening to one another, but isn't it more easy to believe that an asexual calls people sexy because their attraction makes it seem that way and that an asexual may like sex simply cause it might seem fun, then believing that everyone is lying about being ace?

I'm going to go with option number one and say, no, we aren't all lying. We're just different kinds of asexuals and that's fine.

All three definitions are valid because at some point there is a disconnect from the action of sex in some form. This disconnect may come in the form of Attraction (Camp 1), Sex desire (Camp 2) or both (Camp 3). The current definition of sexual attraction on the wiki supports this as follows:

Sexual attraction is an emotional response that sexual people often feel that results in a desire for sexual contact with the person that the attraction is felt towards. (Link)

This definition holds two component. The emotional response and the desire for sexual contact. If there is a lack of either component, I feel the person fills the definition of asexuality. Therefore a person lacking the attraction aspect (Emotional response/ Camp 1) will be labeled as asexual because they don't find other people sexy. A person lacking a desire for sexual contact may find people sexy, but don't have the mental desire to engage in sex (Camp 2). Both are missing something that prevents them from getting a full experience that an allosexual person would.

Therefore, all camps appear valid to me. They just lack in different areas which are still covered in asexuality.

http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/112822-new-term-ideaslets-stop-fightingps-long-post/

I don't find anyone sexy! But sex sounds fun so I have it with my partner sometimes. My partner is sexual and we both have a blast, but I'm just into the act.

This quote makes that entire post irrelevant, in that this is just a regular sexual person who doesn't experience whatever ''finding someone sexy'' is. Yes there are plenty of sexual people who don't place that much value on outward appearance, and to suggest that only ''special asexuals'' can experience this (meaning pretty much that all sexuals must be shallow horny beasts who aren't interested in anything beyond appearance) is just antisexuality and really, a pretty bloody shitty outlook.

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Everybody likes this post and agreed with it not so long ago. :rolleyes: And Steph's definition was great and largely approved, but everybody has already forgotten it.

It seems that the slightest detail has now become a pretext to fight. It's frankly pathetic.

(I'm leaving the topic, as I'm tired of seeing all those fights for nothing)

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Everybody likes this post and agreed with it not so long ago. :rolleyes: And Steph's definition was great and largely approved, but everybody has already forgotten it.

It seems that the slightest detail has now become a pretext to fight. It's frankly pathetic.

(I'm leaving the topic, as I'm tired of seeing all those fights for nothing)

Um don't quote 'facts' (everybody liked and agreed with it) out of your arse lol. Actually there were many people, including myself, vehemently arguing with echeds opinions in general at that time. That post had branched off from another topic, where someone came to AVEN saying they don't find anyone attractive in a way that makes them aroused, but love fucking for the sake of fucking, therefore they are asexual. They then went on to suggest creating asexual sex clubs, so that all asexuals can meet and fuck each other for indiscriminate sex. And also that if they could afford a Real Doll sex doll they'd just fuck that, but asexuals are their next best bet as they are cheaper (ie free). eched became very riled up in that topic when people disagreed with the OP, and went on a little while to make that post you quoted.

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I remember it, thanks, but I understood what he said differently. Now think what you want, but other people are free to think whatever they want as well. (leaves the topic for good, hopefully)

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HypocryteHater

I appreciate you trying to help, but I don't see how reproducing is involved with romantic relationships or any of my questions in this post?

Because we as humans make those connections out of a drive to breed. I know it sounds very bio-deterministic but things sometimes are that way, you know, driven by evolution.

Evolution means adaption to an ever changing environment, regardless if the changes are caused by nature or human intervention. That is, the people who live today have not the same drive to breed as former generations did. A drive is mainly unconscious, but today most people make clear decisions if, when, and under which circumstances they intend to breed. For instance, after they have established in their job, found the right partner and a nice neigborhood etc.

In humans, evolution means for the biggest part a development of their brains, which is in turn the basis for the development of society, so today no normal thinking person would just follow their drive to breed. They might have sex and use some kind of contraception, but meanwhile the drive for sex and the drive for breeding are no longer so tightly connected although our traditional picture is that of a (married) couple living together and having offspring, which may in the case of married people as well be a result of being bored with each other or due to social expectations. Basically, however, the development of the neocortex allows humans to control their drives and impulses, else we would still end each petty disagreement with fists and throwing rocks at each other.

Bottom line, reproducing is not necessarily involved with romantic or sexual relationships, since it wouldn't even be biologically feasible in say, homosexual couples. Furthermore, post--menopausal women and old men can as well fall deeply in love and maintain a romantic and/or sexual relationship although they are biologically (at least in the case of women) no longer able to produce offspring.

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Spectre/Ex/Machina

I appreciate you trying to help, but I don't see how reproducing is involved with romantic relationships or any of my questions in this post?

Because we as humans make those connections out of a drive to breed. I know it sounds very bio-deterministic but things sometimes are that way, you know, driven by evolution.

Evolution means adaption to an ever changing environment, regardless if the changes are caused by nature or human intervention. That is, the people who live today have not the same drive to breed as former generations did. A drive is mainly unconscious, but today most people make clear decisions if, when, and under which circumstances they intend to breed. For instance, after they have established in their job, found the right partner and a nice neigborhood etc.

In humans, evolution means for the biggest part a development of their brains, which is in turn the basis for the development of society, so today no normal thinking person would just follow their drive to breed. They might have sex and use some kind of contraception, but meanwhile the drive for sex and the drive for breeding are no longer so tightly connected although our traditional picture is that of a (married) couple living together and having offspring, which may in the case of married people as well be a result of being bored with each other or due to social expectations. Basically, however, the development of the neocortex allows humans to control their drives and impulses, else we would still end each petty disagreement with fists and throwing rocks at each other.

Bottom line, reproducing is not necessarily involved with romantic or sexual relationships, since it wouldn't even be biologically feasible in say, homosexual couples. Furthermore, post--menopausal women and old men can as well fall deeply in love and maintain a romantic and/or sexual relationship although they are biologically (at least in the case of women) no longer able to produce offspring.

But that is the thing, it is unconscious , even if you make a conscious decision it usually comes from an unconscious desire. We humans are weird like this . As for romance, the way we do. It is just a more sophisticated way of pair bonding like you can see in other apes . Just because we are self aware beings doesn't mean we've over rode our unconscious nature but rather harnessed it and controlled it. More to be added later when I am on a PC as opposed to my iPod .

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Bottom line, reproducing is not necessarily involved with romantic or sexual relationships, since it wouldn't even be biologically feasible in say, homosexual couples. Furthermore, post--menopausal women and old men can as well fall deeply in love and maintain a romantic and/or sexual relationship although they are biologically (at least in the case of women) no longer able to produce offspring.

Um. No.

That's like saying hunger has nothing to do with keeping us fed just because you can eat when you're not hungry and you can feel hungry and choose not to eat. While those options are, of course, true, that doesn't change the fact that we feel hungry as a biological nudge to fuel our bodies.

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Bottom line, reproducing is not necessarily involved with romantic or sexual relationships, since it wouldn't even be biologically feasible in say, homosexual couples. Furthermore, post--menopausal women and old men can as well fall deeply in love and maintain a romantic and/or sexual relationship although they are biologically (at least in the case of women) no longer able to produce offspring.

Um. No.

That's like saying hunger has nothing to do with keeping us fed just because you can eat when you're not hungry and you can feel hungry and choose not to eat. While those options are, of course, true, that doesn't change the fact that we feel hungry as a biological nudge to fuel our bodies.

I didn't read it like that at all. I read it as the desire for sex is certainly not always caused by an innate, inbuilt desire to reproduce. Sexual desire isn't inbuilt into people purely as a method to keep the species reproducing. Sure the desire to reproduce is there as a motivating factor to have sexual relationships for some, but sexual relationships can for many be nothing about reproduction. A sexual relationship can be about connecting on a deeply intimate, emotional level for some, for some they can be about shared pleasure, whatever. Some inbuilt need to produce offspring is not the root cause of the desire to fuck in many cases, in my mind.

''Sexual asexuals'' on AVEN often use the ''biological drive to reproduce'' as the reason why they love partnered sex so much, despite being ''asexual'' .. but I believe that is a flawed argument due to the fact that many people desire sex only with people of the same gender as themselves, for example.. if the desire for sex really was just a biological, inbuilt drive to reproduce (to breed) wouldn't everyone only desire partnered sex with people with a different set of genitals/reproductive organs than they themselves have?

If you have an inbuilt desire to fuck people just because you love fucking, I say, don't blame that on evolution so you can pass yourself off as asexual. Just my opinion.

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If you have an inbuilt desire to fuck people just because you love fucking, I say, don't blame that on evolution so you can pass yourself off as asexual. Just my opinion.

Haha fair enough. I mean, we all have the same evolutionary history, so either we're all asexual or we're all sexual, if that bio drive is what determines orientation. Which it doesn't, clearly.

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How can you have sex with no sexual attraction? *This may seem stupid, but I'm confused, as I have always thought asexual=no sex*

I certainly have a libido. As an artist, I also experience pure aesthetic attraction.

When I need to "scratch my rear in public" (which is what i equate my drive to because I'm sex-repulsed) I hande that myself. I still find it gross. I have NO desire, and have never had desire, to have sex of the **outgoing**, extrovert reason with **anyone**...that I'd simply like that person to "do" me.

If I see an "attractive" (=subjective) person, for example, at work, I can find them intriguing and riveting but an innate desire to have sex with the never even crosses my mind...and the fact that I lacked that drive didn't even cross my mind until really accepting myself as ace one month ago even though I've been on AVEN for about ten years. With very very few people I might feel like I've been tossed down the stairs, but that's a result of extreme aesthetic appreciation/attraction. Even if aesthetically attracted to this point, you might even say "tempted" for lack of a better word, I have no desire to go out of my way to form a "special" committed relationshp (I'm aromantic). I certainly don't desire to have sex with them and am repulsed by even considering or envisioning it (ace).

That SAID, if I had a desire to reproduce (which I do not...I'm childfree) I'd have sex to reproduce. Some aces are so innately sex-repulsed they only consider IVF and cannot compromise even on that. But that's just one example how you can have sex with no sexual attraction.

Whether I'd *like* having sex, I don't know. Never had it because I don't have many social opportunities where I currently live, but even when I did, I never ever went out of my to get that (aromantic), but I had a lot of neat and interesting friends...and obviously nobody found me interesting/attractive enough to approach me about anything.

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How can you have sex with no sexual attraction? *This may seem stupid, but I'm confused, as I have always thought asexual=no sex*

I certainly have a libido. As an artist, I also experience pure aesthetic attraction.

When I need to "scratch my rear in public" (which is what i equate my drive to because I'm sex-repulsed) I hande that myself. I still find it gross. I have NO desire, and have never had desire, to have sex of the **outgoing**, extrovert reason with **anyone**...that I'd simply like that person to "do" me.

If I see an "attractive" (=subjective) person, for example, at work, I can find them intriguing and riveting but an innate desire to have sex with the never even crosses my mind...and the fact that I lacked that drive didn't even cross my mind until really accepting myself as ace one month ago even though I've been on AVEN for about ten years. With very very few people I might feel like I've been tossed down the stairs, but that's a result of extreme aesthetic appreciation/attraction. Even if aesthetically attracted to this point, you might even say "tempted" for lack of a better word, I have no desire to go out of my way to form a "special" committed relationshp (I'm aromantic). I certainly don't desire to have sex with them and am repulsed by even considering or envisioning it (ace).

That SAID, if I had a desire to reproduce (which I do not...I'm childfree) I'd have sex to reproduce. Some aces are so innately sex-repulsed they only consider IVF and cannot compromise even on that. But that's just one example how you can have sex with no sexual attraction.

Whether I'd *like* having sex, I don't know. Never had it because I don't have many social opportunities where I currently live, but even when I did, I never ever went out of my to get that (aromantic), but I had a lot of neat and interesting friends...and obviously nobody found me interesting/attractive enough to approach me about anything.

Such a well written post certainly makes you interesting. ;) *I'm HomoAromanticAsexual, so, I'm not flirting. :D :lol:*

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  • 3 weeks later...

Trust me, i am really really boring. LOL

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I agree, your libido doesn't have much to do with asexuality. I have no libido or sex drive, but I still enjoy sex and masturbation because:

-It feels good

-It's fun and interesting

-It makes me more confident in my sexuality

-Sex can be a great way to emotionally bond with your partner(s).

But I still think I've maintained my "ace status" despite this. I DON'T feel sexual attraction. Nobody turns me on, nobody's appearance triggers any sort of physical response from me. I find people to be aesthetically pleasing and can really love the way they look, but it doesn't mean I think they're sexy.

And that's all there is to being asexual. :)

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How can you have sex with no sexual attraction? *This may seem stupid, but I'm confused, as I have always thought asexual=no sex*

I haven't read the entire thread yet, so I'm sorry if this has already been answered.

To answer with my own example, I'm a person with zero sexual attraction - it just doesn't occur to me that people can be sexual beings unless it is very specifically pointed out. I'm 28 and I'm just barely starting to pick up on sexual innuendo when it comes up, and it's something I've had to make a concerted effort to get better at because it is literally the last thing on my mind.

I do have sex though, and like it. I've had several partners and am currently in a relationship. How it works is that while I don't feel sexual attraction, I do feel romantic and intellectual attraction. Mostly, I see sex as just another way of expressing affection, it just takes a hell of a lot of affection to get to the sex stage. It's more an act of shared trust than anything else for me. I like sex because I like my partner. If I don't have a partner, my libido is almost nonexistent. If I start to lose trust in my partner, I start to become sex repulsed.

If I didn't know them intimately, care for them and trust them, the idea of sex would just be uncomfortable, gross, even humiliating.

Also, as indicated by "sapiosexual", it's not really about the physical pieces to me. I started dating my current partner after I saw the contents of his bookcase.

(actually texted my bestie: "My gods, that man's bookshelf! I must have him"). And certainly romantic gestures like kissing help quite a bit. I just really like the closeness and the romance.

I qualify myself as a graysexual/demisexual for these reasons though. I might not think of sexual context or recognize the idea of potential sex, but I do enjoy sex under the right circumstances.

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dandelionfluff

But if the person is not aromantic or sex repulsed, and has a sex drive/libido then why are they worried?

I'm not aromatic or sex repulsed and have next to no libido. But I have plenty to worry about because:

  • I cannot provide an allosexual person with everything that they would expect from a relationship with another allosexual person
  • Being indifferent or even willing to have intercourse for the sake of a partner doesn't necessarily mean that it will be at the same frequency that the allosexual partner desires, which would definitely cause a rift in the relationship (been there, done that)
  • Compromising sucks, no if ands or buts about it. It is physically and emotionally exhausting for the asexual person (again, been there, done that).
  • Willing doesn't necessarily mean that you will love every second of it. By all technicalities, if I did meet an allosexual person and a relationship developed, I would be ~willing~ to engage in intercourse with them, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't want to be doing anything else other than that. Like looking at cat gifs or playing pokemon.

So it really isn't that easy.

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Re-reading the Overview for AVEN seems to imply Asexual means no sex. Just sayin' :)

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Anthracite_Impreza

The root "a" means without, in biology asexual means to reproduce without sex, simple semantics really. You have to remember most people have no idea what asexuality means in a sociology context so they just assume no sex is involved.

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Telecaster68
The root "a" means without, in biology asexual means to reproduce without sex, simple semantics really

Just as 'homo' means 'same' and 'hetero' means 'different. I think this is where my frustration with the micro-labelling comes from.

The straights and gays of my acquaintance don't seem to have the obsession with sub-categories. They're straight or gay, and differences in romanticism, libido, how their attraction works, etc. are on the whole just bracketed as People Being Different From Each Other, rather than needing negotiating into a labrinthine taxonomy that nobody can agree on, doesn't seem to be fixed over time, and in the end is entirely subjective.

I'm sexual, and straight. Understanding that there is a Thing called asexuality has helped me understand my wife immensely and improved our relationship. But while I can see how sub-sub-sub-categories might help individual ACEs get their heads round who they are, I have to say, and I mean this as a critical friend, to the 99% who aren't asexual, they can make the community look self absorbed and pedantic.

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I don't think it's self-absorbed to look for a better vocabulary to explain something that produces a huge amount of stigma in personal and social lives. There's a huge spectrum between sexuality and asexuality. The extremes are the most recognized, but also a minority. Just because someone isn't fully asexual, but far closer to the asexual end of the spectrum doesn't make their needs or their identity less valid.

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dandelionfluff

Re-reading the Overview for AVEN seems to imply Asexual means no sex. Just sayin' :)

Explain to me what you interpretation of "no sex" is. Like I said before, asexuals may choose to have sex for a number of reasons. Some people on here have even expressed interest in doing it just to get it over with or to see what the fuss is about. I mean, right up the top it says "an asexual person is someone who doesn't experience sexual attraction."

I took a look at the overview myself. Nowhere do I see that it explicitly saying "no sex." Also, if you would take a look at the FAQ, it says this:

"Most asexual people are physically capable of having sex. As with masturbation, some asexuals find the experience of sex pleasurable, even if they do not desire it in the way that someone who feels sexual attraction does. If you use sex in an effort to connect emotionally with your sexual partner, or to compromise their sexuality and your asexuality, rather than because of an innate desire to have sex with your partner, then that need not contradict an asexual identity.

Just as sexual people can form asexual relationships, asexual people can participate in sexual relationships for a variety of reasons. So long as you're comfortable and happy with that then it's cause for celebration rather than a reason to doubt your 'asexual purity.' Celibacy and asexuality need not go hand-in-hand.
Besides wishing to connect with a sexual partner, there are other reasons why some asexuals choose to participate in sexual activity. The motivation might be curiosity or experimentation (a good proportion of asexuals have tried sex at some point in the past). Certain aspects of sex might be sensual and enjoyable enough to be motivation for some people even without sexual attraction or drive. Even if it is not immediately desired, sexual release can certainly be pleasurable for an asexual; think of it as not being hungry but still enjoying an ice cream cone. In a loving relationship, some asexuals may enjoy giving sexual pleasure to their partner without the need for any sexual gratification in return. If sex makes their partner feel loved, then some asexuals may wish to take part in consensual sex acts if only because they desire their partner's happiness."
So I'm really wondering where you are seeing this? If you don't want anything to do with sex, that's fine. No one is trying to alienate you and the definition of asexuality doesn't alienate you, or anyone who doesn't want to have sex either.
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Telecaster68

I don't think it's self-absorbed to look for a better vocabulary to explain something that produces a huge amount of stigma in personal and social lives. There's a huge spectrum between sexuality and asexuality. The extremes are the most recognized, but also a minority. Just because someone isn't fully asexual, but far closer to the asexual end of the spectrum doesn't make their needs or their identity less valid.

I agree, a better vocabulary helps. But trying to fit everybody into an increasingly specialised set of boxes that nobody agrees on, may not always apply, and are ultimately subjective doesn't. Not having a label that covers every eventuality in detail doesn't make anyone's choices less valid.

And given the stress on spreading understanding of the concept, the perception of self absorption does matter. It doesn't help the 'special snowflake' thing one bit.

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