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Librafluid?


Calamity Jim

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Calamity Jim

So Librafluid means : Mostly agender, but has a strong connection that fluctuates between masculinity and femininity.

I was wondering if anyone knew anything about this. I've been struggling a lot with my gender because I am definitely fluid, but I am also impossible to misgender because the he/she/they has never mattered to me on a personal level. A friend mentioned that sounded a bit like being agender. So I came across this term while looking into it and was wondering if anyone had any experience with it.

I could really use a hand because I enjoy my labels but don't want to commit without knowing anything.

So. Thoughts?

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nerdperson777

I can't define your label, but it's okay to label yourself one thing and change it later. My gender originally on this forum was just straight up transgender FtM, but I realized that I'm not an absolute manly man. I can still be perceived as feminine in some sense but I like the thought of being called he and I like male clothing. After some search, I thought, I don't want to be a man, I can be a boy, which can still be feminine.

I can suggest pangender, even though I'm not absolutely sure how someone identifies with it. Usually those people also don't mind their pronouns. You can still be agender. Gender expression doesn't reflect your identity. There can be agender people with masculine/feminine expressions.

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To most people, Libra is an astrological sign. What's the point in attaching labels to yourself that refer to something completely different from what you're trying to convey?

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RaisedByHippies98

OH MY GOSH THANK YOU SO MUCH! I thought i just had some strange combination and i couldn't figure out what i was and how i was feeling. I am Librafluid! So glad i found your post!

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Calamity Jim

OH MY GOSH THANK YOU SO MUCH! I thought i just had some strange combination and i couldn't figure out what i was and how i was feeling. I am Librafluid! So glad i found your post!

Picking your brain!

I knew I was fluid first because I seem to slide between dude mode and chick mode, but I'm not heavily invested in. I really don't care how the rest of the world sees me, but some days I want to wear graphic tees and my body language totally changes, and then other days it's nail polish and once gain different body language.

Is it like this with you?

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But that would still just make you agender. Fluctuating levels of masculinity and femininity or not. It's like saying someone whos feminine but agender hast to identify as something else because their gender expression isn't as neutral as their gender. I also thought of the astronomical sign when seeing Libra. The only way i can make sense of using such a word is if they're referring to the scale associated with it. Maybe Agenderfluid or Agenderflux would be more accurate (though they hardly have results on google).

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To most people, Libra is an astrological sign. What's the point in attaching labels to yourself that refer to something completely different from what you're trying to convey?

You need to think about what Libra actually refers to (or at least, how the sign is typically visually represented) in order to get this one.

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To most people, Libra is an astrological sign. What's the point in attaching labels to yourself that refer to something completely different from what you're trying to convey?

You need to think about what Libra actually refers to (or at least, how the sign is typically visually represented) in order to get this one.

The visual representation of the Libra sign, a scales, doesn't mean back-and-forth/fluid, it means balance.

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Well, usually before scales balance (or before a weight figure is given), there's a little wobbling back and forth.

Even though it's usually applied to media, I can't help but feel like Bellisario's Maxim and MST3K Mantra applies here.

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Well, usually before scales balance (or before a weight figure is given), there's a little wobbling back and forth.

Even though it's usually applied to media, I can't help but feel like Bellisario's Maxim applies here.

True. But I was replying to the characterization of Libra. (I practiced astrology in a former life.)

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I've never heard of librafluid. I am genderfluid, but I've known for a long time that there are many ways to experience genderfluidity. Some people fluctuate more than others, faster or slower than others, and some people feel they have more of a "home base" that they fluctuate around... It sounds to me that your "home base" is agender, with smaller fluctuations towards feminine and masculine? Please correct me if I'm wrong. It's interesting to see that someone made a word specifically for this kind of genderfluidity.

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I second the agenderfluid/flux suggestion (androgyne works too, as many androgynes identify as neutral not just male/female or masculine/feminine) - they're agender subtypes (maybe unnecessary, but some might prefer to be specific) and basically mean the same thing you've described but with less chance of confusion. But you should go with whatever you prefer - it's not like language doesn't already have dozens of words meaning basically the same thing (like for every different shade of every color, which is not only useful but often necessary for artists at least), or similar words meaning entirely different things.

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The neutral/agender association with androgyne is wrong. The term literally means male-female; it can't possibly mean agender. Some definitions of androgynous say it's appearing as a mixture of male and female or neither, but the latter makes no sense; if someone appeared to be neither then that could only be achieved with non-human characteristics. And that's why i suggested demi-androgyne; androgyne's masculinity and femininity levels can fluctuate, but that would still mean they had to barely identify as a mixture of male and female.

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Calamity Jim

I've never heard of librafluid. I am genderfluid, but I've known for a long time that there are many ways to experience genderfluidity. Some people fluctuate more than others, faster or slower than others, and some people feel they have more of a "home base" that they fluctuate around... It sounds to me that your "home base" is agender, with smaller fluctuations towards feminine and masculine? Please correct me if I'm wrong. It's interesting to see that someone made a word specifically for this kind of genderfluidity.

I don't really know how to describe it because it's a bit murky, but here I go.

I think that even in my swings I am still fairly gender ambivalent. How I perform changes, but how I feel about how other people feel about my performance is minimally relevant. I can't be misgendered, even when I am performing 'feminine' and get called 'he'. It amuses me because I am not invested in gender and in passing or performing. I will do what I feel comfortable with and what I am comfortable with changes from quite masculine to fairly feminine, but because I am AFAB I do tend to avoid more extreme forms of femininity not because I don't enjoy them but because I don't want other people to try and trap me in that presentation.

So it's almmost like gender is more of an attitude for me than this identity, and the attitude is very pendulum.

Does that make any sense?

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Calamity Jim

Oh good lord. No one will understand what 'Librafluid' means, I guarantee it. Luckily the concept of being agendered is becoming more recognised and understood, so because you say you mostly identify that way, what's wrong with telling people exactly what you wrote here -- that you're generally agendered but fluctuate between feeling masculine and feminine sometimes? The idea of gender identity as compared to biological sex is still relatively confusing to many people, and although plenty of people understand, a lot still do not. If you want to maintain some credibility and not be completely dismissed, I suggest introducing them to the term 'agender' (and perhaps 'genderfluid' if you really feel it's necessary), and forgetting about this whole 'Librafluid' thing. Your self-identity will be more understandable to others if you explain in full sentences rather than throwing out terms that sound silly and will need an explanation anyway.

Right now I am more focused on understanding for myself than other people. I'm a gender queer homoromantic. My identity will always be hard to explain to other people. But right now this word with this definition best captures what I might be experiencing and I am just trying to sort it for myself and I need a sound board because I don't know anyone who is agender and I am the only gender fluid person I know. So I don't know if these gender identites really can have babies or if I need to keep looking for my label so I can quite being so confused about my gender. And this is the first time I have even considered that I may be agender.

I don't mind it being hard to explain. I just need to feel more at ease for myself.

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"The neutral/agender association with androgyne is wrong. The term literally means male-female; it can't possibly mean agender. Some definitions of androgynous say it's appearing as a mixture of male and female or neither, but the latter makes no sense; if someone appeared to be neither then that could only be achieved with non-human characteristics. And that's why i suggested demi-androgyne; androgyne's masculinity and femininity levels can fluctuate, but that would still mean they had to barely identify as a mixture of male and female."

The commonly accepted use of the term androgyne isn't the literal male/female but some combination of masculine/feminine/neutral/neither (kind of like how asexual is no longer just commonly used to mean something self-replicating) - the term has also been around longer and is still much more common than agender, genderfluid, etc (outside of the non-binary community at least). But if anyone wants to pedantically argue it's wrong because of the exact translation and not common use, they can knock themselves out (I won't - arguing with petty inflexibility is a tedious waste of time).

As for the OP - ultimately people can advise (not dictate), but the best thing you can do is search non-binary resources and decide what term you feel best suits you (it can always be changed if how you feel/identify changes, or if you find what you feel is a better term).

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WhoNeedsLabels?

This sounds a lot like demigender to me, or maybe fluid between demiboy, demigirl and agender. I don't really understand the difference between demigender and libragender, but if you're willing to explain it I'm happy to listen.

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Calamity Jim

This sounds a lot like demigender to me, or maybe fluid between demiboy, demigirl and agender. I don't really understand the difference between demigender and libragender, but if you're willing to explain it I'm happy to listen.

It was the first term that popped up on google?

Googling demi-gender I think that the only real difference is that librafluid is fluid, so it encompasses the swinging back and forth from being a demi-boy to a demi-girl and back again.

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The idea of gender identity as compared to biological sex is still relatively confusing to many people, and although plenty of people understand, a lot still do not.

Yep, including me. At least to some extent. I don't fully grasp this whole gender fluidity thing, for example. And I'm non-binary resp. genderqueer myself :mellow:

All these labels are giving me a headache, to be honest.

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Calamity Jim

The idea of gender identity as compared to biological sex is still relatively confusing to many people, and although plenty of people understand, a lot still do not.

Yep, including me. At least to some extent. I don't fully grasp this whole gender fluidity thing, for example. And I'm non-binary resp. genderqueer myself :mellow:

All these labels are giving me a headache, to be honest.

Ha! Fluidity is like the one thing I can explain!

Let's imagine that gender is on a scale of 1 to 10 (it isn't, but this is for easy explaining). We'll mark 1 as super masculine male and 10 as super feminine female. Most people have a base number that they very a few points from. So let's say someone is at a 6. They can get more feminine than that, and more masculine than that, but tend to hang out between 5 and 7 most of the time. Most people have that sort of natural fluidity.

People who are defined as gender fluid have more extreme movements on the scale, so can cycle between and 8 down to a 2 and back again. This means that gender presentation not only fluctuates between the masculine and feminine, but can fluctuate between male and female. I met a girl years ago who would alternate from using female pronouns and male pronouns on an average of a two year cycle, which means if I had met her a few years earlier I would have met a him.

So that's fluidity.

And the reason there are so many labels is so people can find each other and share experiences. Like being ace. Sure, we could all just be ace, but that doesn't let the homoromantics find each other easily, and it is important that the homoromantics find each other because 1) easy dating pool ;) and 2) we have a more similar experience than the heteroromantics due in part to how QUILTBAG experiences inform life and experience additional discrimination. We're fighting similar but also different battles. As are the greys as are the demis and so on.

So the labels are there so we can 'meet our people' so to speak. And they are important because they give a sense of solidarity

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First of all, thanks for the explanation, Calamity Jim!

However, I'm still having trouble understanding - mainly because I don't understand masculinity and femininity per se. From the outside, they seem to be nothing but constructs to me. Maybe there is an innate sense of being female or male, but I can't relate to it because my gender is pretty much nonexistent.

This means that gender presentation not only fluctuates between the masculine and feminine, but can fluctuate between male and female.

Okay, I'm afraid I don't quite understand this sentence ... There must be more to gender fluidity than just gender presentation, I'd say?! Or maybe I got you all wrong.

And by the way, where do agender people like me fit on your gender scale?

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Calamity Jim

First of all, thanks for the explanation, Calamity Jim!

However, I'm still having trouble understanding - mainly because I don't understand masculinity and femininity per se. From the outside, they seem to be nothing but constructs to me. Maybe there is an innate sense of being female or male, but I can't relate to it because my gender is pretty much nonexistent.

This means that gender presentation not only fluctuates between the masculine and feminine, but can fluctuate between male and female.

Okay, I'm afraid I don't quite understand this sentence ... There must be more to gender fluidity than just gender presentation, I'd say?! Or maybe I got you all wrong.

And by the way, where do agender people like me fit on your gender scale?

1. Agender don't fit on my scale because it was a really crappy scale just for the sake of metaphor. Sex is more of a 3-axis graph than a scale.

2. Gender is a construct, but sex is not. So you can be 'masculine' and female and the only real problem with that is how society handles that (poorly in many cases.) But this gets complicated when your gender presentation is so strong that your sex feels incorrect. This is where transgender becomes a thing. Many people feel dysphoria, which is the sensation of parts of the body being wrong. I have a friend who just came out as trans and she finds it extremely uncomfortable when she isn't wearing her boobs around. She is very upset when she is misgendered as male. So this all plays into a very complicated idea of self and expression that I don't really understand. But a lot of people have very firm feelings about their gender as being part of their identity, not a construct they are playing with. For example, there was a male raised as a girl after an unfortunate incident TW

involving lasers and circumcision

but he knew the entire time that he was male even though he had no reason for thinking that.

If anything, the way agender fit on my scale is by not being on it. It seems that most agender people, from what I am learning, aren't super attached to their gender. It's just a thing that other people do. One of the things I am struggling with is I keep having this conversation with a cis (identifies as the gender assigned at birth) friend and she keeps asking about how I handle constant misgendering, which I actually do not care about. But my gender presentation still naturally swings between ultra feminine (make up and fancy hair and such) to ultra masculine (buzz cut and body language and graphic tees of motorbikes). This includes bouncing from a female moniker to a male moniker. And I find that I get annoyed when I feel the need to switch to these presentations and something is blocking me. It's important that I dress masculine because I want to dress masculine, but I don't care if people use he/she/they.

I don't really understand it myself. I think demi-gender, which someone mentioned, is probably the closet term for me. So demi-gender fluid. Maybe?

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There must be more to gender fluidity than just gender presentation, I'd say?!

Yes, much more. Presentation is presentation, how you look, your mannerisms etc.

Gender fluidity means you fluctuate in terms of which gender you identify with, see yourself as. I mean, when I'm a woman, I feel like a woman even when I dress androgynously and often chose to do so. In a sense, this is the time when I identify with woman as a gender, I see myself as a woman in every aspect. I know it's difficult to understand. I myself only recently arrived at an understanding of this issue. It is more like an understanding of self, seeing yourself falling into the particular social cathegory of women. The reverse is true when I'm a man. I'd wear a dress, expose my breasts and still feel like I'm a crossdressing man and connect to the concept of men, as a member of the group. I'd describe it somehow as a sense of belonging. (To make things more complicated, I'm never a binary man or woman, more like their genderqueer versions, so no direct dysphoria)

Difficult to understand, isn't it? ;) Especially when you're non-binary.

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I wouldn't say also that this sense is innate, quite the opposite, a result of long process of thinking and feeling.

how I handle constant misgendering, which I actually do not care about. But my gender presentation still naturally swings between ultra feminine (make up and fancy hair and such) to ultra masculine (buzz cut and body language and graphic tees of motorbikes). This includes bouncing from a female moniker to a male moniker. And I find that I get annoyed when I feel the need to switch to these presentations and something is blocking me. It's important that I dress masculine because I want to dress masculine, but I don't care if people use he/she/they.

Me too! I'm the same in these aspects! :D High five, same team :)

I don't really understand it myself. I think demi-gender, which someone mentioned, is probably the closet term for me. So demi-gender fluid. Maybe?

Up to you. I can't pick a specific label that will feel like 'it', when it comes to me. I identify as gender fluid between non-binary genders: demi-girl/boy, various combinations of androgyne, genderless, neutrois, nb femme, nb butch, their demi versions... Did I miss anything? Basically, up to what you feel in that area or which name is alright for you, which you feel most comfortable with. Mine was a difficult one to figure out ;) Your may be too. I also had that sense of not understanding myself due to high degree of fluidity and all these mixed and demi genders. Duh.

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There must be more to gender fluidity than just gender presentation, I'd say?!

Yes, much more. Presentation is presentation, how you look, your mannerisms etc.

Sure, I know. It was a rhetorical question. I asked because CJ was mainly talking about gender presentation and I was sort of wondering what gender fluidity feels like within, apart from gender performance.

But well, I suppose I won't understand all of these mysteries anytime soon. But that's okay.

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Sure, I know. It was a rhetorical question. I asked because CJ was mainly talking about gender presentation and I was sort of wondering what gender fluidity feels like within, apart from gender performance.

But well, I suppose I won't understand all of these mysteries anytime soon. But that's okay.

Rhatorical question *facepalm* However, I think I went to the area of your wondering too, so it's not that bad with my intuition ;)

It's totally okay :) Gender is confusing, I must admit it too. *nods*

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  • 1 year later...
On 7/11/2015 at 6:41 PM, Calamity Jim said:

Picking your brain!

I knew I was fluid first because I seem to slide between dude mode and chick mode, but I'm not heavily invested in. I really don't care how the rest of the world sees me, but some days I want to wear graphic tees and my body language totally changes, and then other days it's nail polish and once gain different body language.

Is it like this with you?

This sounds like me to the max. I change from day to day and it's not enough to overshadow my Ace/Aro flux, but it is a definite feature. I've reworded the search so many times and this is it. You can see it in my smile, voice, body language in my photos and it doesn't interfere with the girls that like me although my Ace/Aro flux does. I'm mostly a cis gender guy that likes girls that only experiences primary attraction to women during rare fluctuations and it usually isn't specific to them. It happens more in the summertime too, like I have to tell myself it's o.k to be a guy and look. I behave like a total romantic person but with all the ace/aro complexities going on. It's like I know I'm good at it but I'm not really interested. I think these librafluid gender mannerisms could be somewhat related to asexuality especially since I fluctuate although I think this librafluidity fluctuates independent from my asexual and aromantic fluctuations. I'm an interesting combo for sure. I kind of missed AVEN, I just had nothing to post for a long time. Thanks for this post Calamity Jim

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I'm actually agenderflux! So no you're not alone

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Locking due to necromancy

 

Ricchan, Gender Co-Mod.

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