Asexual men?

[Guest Cairne Bloodhoof]

Maybe we ought to ask why there are more women instead asking why there are less men :D . I've read a book called Understanding Asexualiy by Anthony F. Bogaert. In the book, the author wrote a theory that some women may "learn" to live without sex, "losing" their sexual attraction, thus technically becoming asexual. He said that it usually happens when a woman lives without sex for a longer period of time. At least that's how I understand what he said :lol: .

[Lord Jade Cross]

Whats the correlation between activity VS attraction?

[GinnyB]

Perhaps the biggest problem I've experienced as an asexual from a social/community perspective is that if anyone, for any reason, is not sexually relevant to that community, they are not relevant in any other way, either. It's as if our sexual utility to that community is the foundational aspect to who we are as human beings, and if we cannot satisfy that requirement, we have no worth and do not belong at all.

I think this is probably true for both male and female asexuals (as specific to this conversation), and have no doubt at all that everyone along a non-straight sexual or gender spectrum may have felt this way as well. Those of us who are not straight and/or don't want sex at all simply don't compute, because we have no reproductive utility to the community.

I've felt that lack of relevancy as a woman in many ways and always attributed it to something else--not being beautiful enough, not being a member of the predominant religion, not being willing to engage in mating games, etc., etc. I imagine it's the same for men: It takes time to figure out what you're not feeling and then it takes even longer to figure out how to deal with that against the threat of becoming a social null. They don't measure us against other standards when it comes to defining us AS "men" or "women"...so where do any of us stand if we don't meet that measure?

I don't think women are seen so much as general demisexuals so much as neutral blank slates who only "become" women (and thus relevant) when we express sexual interest in a male or at least have the potentiality of doing so. Until then (or unless we do), we are pretty much invisible. While manhood and value tends to be more assumed for men...and who wants to give that up? I imagine that it's the difference (in straight eyes) between a caterpillar choosing to become a butterfly and a butterfly choosing to become a caterpillar.

That may explain why there are fewer men who identify as asexuals: They already hold the social cards, so letting go of those advantages would be enormously difficult. Biology may also play a part. If there are more women in the world to begin with, that 1% pulls fewer males from the population than it does females. That's just math. But it's the social part that's intriguing, and makes me wonder how many more men out there ARE asexual...but simply cannot or do not dare admit it.

[WheelCuddle]

I think that's an interesting construct. I definitely feel less relevant than I did before. I am happier being honest with myself but I do definitely feel like the majority of society writes a non sexual male off, in a way.

[Autumn Season]

A male ace friend told me, that in times when he does have sex, people react differently to him. As if they could "feel" he was somehow different. :/ (That thought is actually kinda scary.)

[Keels]

Hmm, interesting.

Here's an odd little possibly relevant thing I've been noticing in myself lately. So, I've been getting fit over the past year. I went through a fairly standard early-forties thing of slowing metabolism + less habitual exercise = potbelly + overall lack of fitness. So I started running a few times a week, and then started doing some push-ups, and now I'm feeling -- and looking! -- pretty good. And now occasionally I find an automatic thought creeping into my head: "hey, I bet people find me more sexually attractive now". It takes a second or two to come back at myself, "but I actually don't really care about that any more!"

This stuff is just sooooooo culturally ingrained. Health, fitness, manliness (or womanliness), sexual attractiveness to others, perceived worth as a human being… it's all wrapped up in this horrible, unhealthy package. It just doesn't have to be that way! But it's so hard to get out from under it.

(I imagine it may be even worse for sexuals, FWIW. For reasons that have only become clear recently, I've never paid much mind to the conventional link between 'sexual attractiveness to others' and 'perceived worth as a human being'. I've just always been obtuse. :) But I think they can be pretty much simply inextricable for sexuals, based on how I've seen sexual partners react over the years….)

[Philip027]

A male ace friend told me, that in times when he does have sex, people react differently to him. As if they could "feel" he was somehow different. :/ (That thought is actually kinda scary.)

I can definitely see that happening. I don't even need to be having sex for people to tell I'm different in that way. >_>

[Lord Jade Cross]

Hmm, interesting.

Here's an odd little possibly relevant thing I've been noticing in myself lately. So, I've been getting fit over the past year. I went through a fairly standard early-forties thing of slowing metabolism + less habitual exercise = potbelly + overall lack of fitness. So I started running a few times a week, and then started doing some push-ups, and now I'm feeling -- and looking! -- pretty good. And now occasionally I find an automatic thought creeping into my head: "hey, I bet people find me more sexually attractive now". It takes a second or two to come back at myself, "but I actually don't really care about that any more!"

This stuff is just sooooooo culturally ingrained. Health, fitness, manliness (or womanliness), sexual attractiveness to others, perceived worth as a human being… it's all wrapped up in this horrible, unhealthy package. It just doesn't have to be that way! But it's so hard to get out from under it.

(I imagine it may be even worse for sexuals, FWIW. For reasons that have only become clear recently, I've never paid much mind to the conventional link between 'sexual attractiveness to others' and 'perceived worth as a human being'. I've just always been obtuse. :) But I think they can be pretty much simply inextricable for sexuals, based on how I've seen sexual partners react over the years….)

An interesting detail.

[Lord Jade Cross]

A male ace friend told me, that in times when he does have sex, people react differently to him. As if they could "feel" he was somehow different. :/ (That thought is actually kinda scary.)

I can definitely see that happening. I don't even need to be having sex for people to tell I'm different in that way. >_>

Well, there are things as knowing to interpret body language. Maybe when he has sex, he isnt so fully inmersed in it like a sexual who is set to feel good and also make sure the other partner feels goos as well (unless hes a jerk). Sort of like saying "meh whatever, lets get this over with" VS "ALLRIGHT SEX HERE I COME"

A difference in culturally established behavioral pattern can tip off people that somethings up. It may not be so much that they know as much as "he/she isnt behaving as I would expect." even if they cant put their finger on what it is exactly.

[New Penny]

Why don't more men consider themselves asexual? I think it's a visiblilty thing... For most people, in most places (and certainly where I live), a man's either straight or gay. If there's any 'umm-ing' and 'ahh-ing', you're basically laughed down and assumed to be a gay man who can't admit it. And the latter confers lots of ideas about cowardice... After all, other gay men have bitten the bullet and 'come out' - what's wrong with you? So rather than being considered a closetted coward (not a very masculine thing to be), guys just keep quiet if they're not that interested in sex.

I just don't think that a sexual identity of 'asexual' is legitimate, for men at least, in the eyes of society today. Which isn't to say it won't be in the future. Once upon a time it wasn't legitimate to be gay, and so it was hated and criminalised. Maybe it would take some high-profile people to tell the world they're asexual before people take it seriously.

[Philip027]

Well, there are things as knowing to interpret body language. Maybe when he has sex, he isnt so fully inmersed in it like a sexual who is set to feel good and also make sure the other partner feels goos as well (unless hes a jerk). Sort of like saying "meh whatever, lets get this over with" VS "ALLRIGHT SEX HERE I COME"

True, there is that.

For me though, there is no body language element present, because the people I interact with are primarily over the internet XD

[Tarfeather]

Actually, I think very often when people say something like that, the implication is that women always "can" have sex because there always will be a willing male. Whereas females are more "choosy" so males are not afforded that same luxury.

Whether or not this is actually true in practice, I have no idea. But I'm sure this is a very common belief.

Well, there is a bias, but maybe not that one. It seems that guys care a lot less about appearance than girls and so they are more likely to date/have sex with a less attractive girl. This leads to an overall skew where the more attractive/desirable guys don't have an issue getting at sex, whereas the mediocre to less attractive guys have a lot more trouble with it than "comparable" females. Reducing this issue is actually one of the very few advantages I see in the Christian marriage model.

[That asexual guy]

A male ace friend told me, that in times when he does have sex, people react differently to him. As if they could "feel" he was somehow different. :/ (That thought is actually kinda scary.)

This is true. I speak from experience. The other person knows you aren't into them. They just do. People compare their experiences. The only person who wouldn't know would probably be a virgin.

[Hardly any]

Hmm, interesting.

Here's an odd little possibly relevant thing I've been noticing in myself lately. So, I've been getting fit over the past year. I went through a fairly standard early-forties thing of slowing metabolism + less habitual exercise = potbelly + overall lack of fitness. So I started running a few times a week, and then started doing some push-ups, and now I'm feeling -- and looking! -- pretty good. And now occasionally I find an automatic thought creeping into my head: "hey, I bet people find me more sexually attractive now". It takes a second or two to come back at myself, "but I actually don't really care about that any more!"

This stuff is just sooooooo culturally ingrained. Health, fitness, manliness (or womanliness), sexual attractiveness to others, perceived worth as a human being… it's all wrapped up in this horrible, unhealthy package. It just doesn't have to be that way! But it's so hard to get out from under it.

(I imagine it may be even worse for sexuals, FWIW. For reasons that have only become clear recently, I've never paid much mind to the conventional link between 'sexual attractiveness to others' and 'perceived worth as a human being'. I've just always been obtuse. :) But I think they can be pretty much simply inextricable for sexuals, based on how I've seen sexual partners react over the years….)

Tell you what, I've been on a fitness kick myself and have gotten a lot more attractive as a result. And yes, my self-worth has gone through the roof. That was kind of revealing.

Then I realized that I might be demisexual when my new "worth" didn't make me want to have sex. I think part of me thought that if I could attract people I would be attracted to them, but nope.

[That asexual guy]

Hmm, interesting.

Here's an odd little possibly relevant thing I've been noticing in myself lately. So, I've been getting fit over the past year. I went through a fairly standard early-forties thing of slowing metabolism + less habitual exercise = potbelly + overall lack of fitness. So I started running a few times a week, and then started doing some push-ups, and now I'm feeling -- and looking! -- pretty good. And now occasionally I find an automatic thought creeping into my head: "hey, I bet people find me more sexually attractive now". It takes a second or two to come back at myself, "but I actually don't really care about that any more!"

This stuff is just sooooooo culturally ingrained. Health, fitness, manliness (or womanliness), sexual attractiveness to others, perceived worth as a human being it's all wrapped up in this horrible, unhealthy package. It just doesn't have to be that way! But it's so hard to get out from under it.

(I imagine it may be even worse for sexuals, FWIW. For reasons that have only become clear recently, I've never paid much mind to the conventional link between 'sexual attractiveness to others' and 'perceived worth as a human being'. I've just always been obtuse. :) But I think they can be pretty much simply inextricable for sexuals, based on how I've seen sexual partners react over the years.)

Tell you what, I've been on a fitness kick myself and have gotten a lot more attractive as a result. And yes, my self-worth has gone through the roof. That was kind of revealing.

Then I realized that I might be demisexual when my new "worth" didn't make me want to have sex. I think part of me thought that if I could attract people I would be attracted to them, but nope.

Exactly. I attract people but I still don't want to be with them. That was one of the most confusing things to me.

[scarletlatitude]

For a female who is looking for a male asexual partner, this has been a very enlightening thread. :)

As for women and sex and society -- if a woman has a lot of sex, she is a slut. If she doesn't have a lot of sex, she is a prude. There is no in between. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. [This is in terms of society in general, of course. I know not everyone thinks like that.]

[uRBAN_Spaceman]

Addressing OPs question. Will try to not jump around and be random. The question itself is so general I could go on and on about it. When puberty hit my friends and I there was already an idea in my head I was different. When we went to parties my friends were suddenly more interested in getting girls clothes off than having fun. I never saw a point in it. But I entered a sexual relationship regardless because that's what everybody else was doing. And I think that influenced my behavior as an asexual quite a bit. I learned how to hide behind a false curtain of male sexuality. I can make the most perverted joke without flinching.... On the outside.... I am definitely honest about my sexuality but there will always be that sexual front that I attempt to play off. It's just easier to go with the flow sometimes. I also believe there's a lot of asexual men that just aren't honest with themselves. I hope this helped in some way. I'm always open to discuss it.

[ACWells]

For a female who is looking for a male asexual partner, this has been a very enlightening thread. :)

As for women and sex and society -- if a woman has a lot of sex, she is a slut. If she doesn't have a lot of sex, she is a prude. There is no in between. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. [This is in terms of society in general, of course. I know not everyone thinks like that.]

Breakfast Club Quote! Always relevant.

[Tarfeather]

As for women and sex and society -- if a woman has a lot of sex, she is a slut. If she doesn't have a lot of sex, she is a prude. There is no in between. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. [This is in terms of society in general, of course. I know not everyone thinks like that.]

Do people actually use the word prude like that over there? Geez. I thought it was supposed to be a compliment. :D

[ACWells]

As for women and sex and society -- if a woman has a lot of sex, she is a slut. If she doesn't have a lot of sex, she is a prude. There is no in between. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. [This is in terms of society in general, of course. I know not everyone thinks like that.]

Do people actually use the word prude like that over there? Geez. I thought it was supposed to be a compliment. :D

It's a direct, almost word for word quote from The Breakfast Club that was true then and is absolutely true now. Definitely not a compliment. Definitely true.

I suppose I should weigh in on the topic, since I'm here?

I agree that since men tend to (but aren't guaranteed to) have functioning equipment, they may mistake physical arousal for sexual desire.

I agree that men are societally more pressured to desire sex- some men are extremely vocal about their desires and their activities (whether it's true or just posturing, I couldn't say, it depends on the individual!) As someone else said, women aren't necessarily expected to be sleeping around- especially if they're from a religious household- so even if they're thought of as prudish, they will get a lot less hassle for not being promiscuous.

From a biological perspective it makes sense that prevalence in the population would be 50/50 male and female, but perhaps a combination of physical arousal/functioning equipment confuses those asexual men who have both of the above? Perhaps some of the men who cheat do it because they feel no desire for their partner, and experience arousal at someone else? Wheras I know a lot of women- something like 70% of women- can't, *ahem*, achieve satisfaction from having sex, and therefore when sex is deeply unsatisfying, are more likely to consider the possibility that they're asexual.

Wheelcuddle- it's not just a question of lubrication for women. If they're not aroused everything can tense up and become very painful and unpleasant for a woman. Obviously not being able to get aroused as a male would also present a huge problem (no pun) but either way it's difficult for everyone :)

Autumn Season - I suspect your friend FELT different and therefore felt there was a difference in how people perceived them? In my experience people are far too self absorbed to notice minor behavioural changes but they can respond to heightened confidence, which your friend may have felt, on account of feeling like they were 'fitting in to society' more.

GinnyB, you bring up an interesting point. Personally I have never felt 'relevant', to any group. I'm frequently ignored or left out of party invitations etc and it hurts. But I only identified myself as asexual in the last couple of months. Previously I was just struggling along assuming I was sexual but broken. And being left out has happened since I was very young. Personally I'm inclined to think this is more due to my own social issues rather than them somehow sensing I was asexual- but obviously I can't speak for you. As you say, this would affect everyone on a non-straight spectrum and I'm not sure it does. I've never thought that I've been considered 'not relevant as a woman' but I've always gotten on better with men and most of my friends are men- I only have a couple of close female friends. Perhaps just one, actually. And she's Ace, too. It's certainly something to ponder on- whether they somehow unconsciously knew I was ace and rejected me based on that? But I feel like it must somehow be more complicated than that, especiallly as I went 31 years without realising, and attempting to fit in to society on more sexual terms!

[Squirrel Combat]

Why don't more men consider themselves asexual? I think it's a visiblilty thing... For most people, in most places (and certainly where I live), a man's either straight or gay. If there's any 'umm-ing' and 'ahh-ing', you're basically laughed down and assumed to be a gay man who can't admit it. And the latter confers lots of ideas about cowardice... After all, other gay men have bitten the bullet and 'come out' - what's wrong with you? So rather than being considered a closetted coward (not a very masculine thing to be), guys just keep quiet if they're not that interested in sex.

I just don't think that a sexual identity of 'asexual' is legitimate, for men at least, in the eyes of society today. Which isn't to say it won't be in the future. Once upon a time it wasn't legitimate to be gay, and so it was hated and criminalised. Maybe it would take some high-profile people to tell the world they're asexual before people take it seriously.

This is how I feel my parents would think if I came out to them. My dad might joke about me being a "fag".

[Blue Phoenix Ace]

Maybe it's time to test one of these theories out. This one should be fairly straightforward. I propose the following:

Hypothesis: Male asexuals experience sexual arousal more than female asexuals. Males that identify as asexual may have had a the confusion that sexual arousal meant they weren't asexual before discovering their orientation moreso than females. If this is true then there are males who haven't discovered their asexual orientation due to sexual arousal.

The test: Poll the asexual members of this site. "Choose which of the following best describes your gender, whether you've experienced sexual arousal, and whether you believe your sexual arousal may have caused confusion about you discovering your asexuality.

A. Male, never experienced sexual arousal

B. Male, experienced sexual arousal but never believed that excluded me from asexuality

C. Male, experienced sexual arousal and did believe that excluded me from asexuality

D-F (same for Female)

G-I? (same for other genders)"

Gather results, analyze data... profit?

[knout]

Maybe it's time to test one of these theories out. This one should be fairly straightforward. I propose the following:

Hypothesis: Male asexuals experience sexual arousal more than female asexuals. Males that identify as asexual may have had a the confusion that sexual arousal meant they weren't asexual before discovering their orientation moreso than females. If this is true then there are males who haven't discovered their asexual orientation due to sexual arousal.

That's a good point, male libidoists are more common than female libidoists... I guess?

I know I learnt about asexuality and didn't think it would apply to me because I still had a libido then... and only felt the orientation would fit me after I lost my libido for over a year

[Blue Phoenix Ace]

So far the poll would disprove the theory. Check out the census sub-forum and vote! (It's called something something... sexual arousal... something something...) :)

[Qloshae]

I thinking for the most part we are raised to feel like we need to get married and pop off some kids. At least where I'm from that is the mentality and if you don't express any interest towards girls they will label you as gay, which isn't the case for me and in my community can draw.a lot of negative attention. Growing up around straight friends I always assumed that I was the same, but just not as good with being a ladies man.

I think many men just feel like maybe we aren't good with girls, and that must be what is going in. I don't think many of them realize that this orientation even exists, and as I had said it kind of goes against everything society (US) teaches us as being a man.

So yeah, I think we do exist in equal numbers but women probably are less shamed into admitting that they are asexual, since they normally are the ones who have more control when it comes to choosing partners. Us men are just kind of expected to run around flailing our arms about wildly while trying to have sex with anything that moves, or so our society tells us we are.

Totally agree with this. :)

I think some also assume I am gay due to not acting in any particular way around girls.

[ACWells]

I think some also assume I am gay due to not acting in any particular way around girls.

The area I grew up in, people assume a man who shows any respect for women is gay. Like if they don't catcall women on the street or if they're good husbands or fathers, even.

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[MacAran]

I think a lot of people have got it. For the most part I thought I was just dealing with social pressure against premarital sex, and just generally being nervous about it all, which is why i was uncomfortable with sex. It almost didn't occur to me that I could be asexual, because I do experience arousal. Sex just wasn't something I thought about at all, and somehow never realized that that wasn't the norm for most people..

[Blue Phoenix Ace]

The sexual arousal theory is debunked, at least with the small sample size who responded here on AVEN. If anything, this skews us as having less females on here than we should.

http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/122769-can-sexual-arousal-cause-confusion-about-asexual-orientation/

I'll start a new poll, specifically about societal pressure for males versus females about sex.

http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/123290-does-society-pressure-us-into-having-sex/

[Koriander]

Heh, I'm the only Asexual male I know of.

I think there was one other at the RVK Pride, but other then him it's just me.

I know a few asexuals irl, they're all female!