*poll* do you support same-sex marriage?

[Larien]

I support gay marriage, too many people let others influence their thoughts,feelings and emotions. it would be a better world if homophobes just minded their own business and go about their lives without bothering other people!

Was it a dig at me? Tell me, how I'm "bothering" you by wanting my family member to be alive and not in jail? Tell me, how whether he is safe and sound is not my own business?

And are you 100% sure that thoughts, feelings, emotions and desires to penalize and imprison other people for the sake of somebody's whims are not influenced by anyone? Sorry to break it to you, but they are. They are likewise indoctrination.

It seems like a lot of people come into Census threads and post their opinions without necessarily reading all of the above posts. I don't think they meant for that to be a personal dig at you, but that was just my interpretation. :)

[praetorius]

I find it ironic that people are using #LoveWins to force and bully religious leaders into marrying 2 people of the same sex. These days, you read stories of gay couples demanding that Christians/Catholics marry them, or else they get them into big trouble such as driving them out of business and suing them.

At least in the US context, the key word here is business. Under US law, how a not-for-profit religious association like a Church behaves is strongly protected. The prominent recent specific case of a person sued for not performing a same-sex marriage was not a Church (a voluntary donation-supported organization), but a for-profit wedding chapel where you paid to have a ceremony performed.

The history of discrimination in this country has established the idea that, if you are running a business --- which is a privilege, not a right, and receives benefits paid for by the public --- and you offer goods/services for sale, then you need to sell those goods/services regardless of the race/color/religion/sexuality of the purchaser. You can refuse to sell ham sandwiches because you are a Kosher deli (choice of what you sell), but you cannot refuse to sell a sandwich to a black or gay person that you would sell to a white or straight customer (choice of who you sell to). Same for a baking cake, or reading a wedding passage over a couple --- if your personal religious convictions forbid you from selling cakes to mixed-race marriages, then your freedom to stick to those principles is to get out of the cake business.

[m02a16ds]

It seems like a lot of people come into Census threads and post their opinions without necessarily reading all of the above posts. I don't think they meant for that to be a personal dig at you, but that was just my interpretation. :)

I hope so, but "homophobe" is really such an umbrella term nowadays, that it wouldn't hurt to make it clearer. A couple of years ago, when my LGBT friends diatribed about how "all homophobes are terrible people" and how "any decent human being should avoid them", I asked them "I support LGBT civil rights, I wholeheartedly condemn political persecution of LGBT people, but I similarly condemn LGBT radical activists, who attack and threaten priests and religious people, am I a homophobe and hence a terrible person?" the answer was "yes". So, in case Ak-Stoic shares that opinion and meant people like me too, I would be intrigued to know, how my existence and beliefs interfere with his well-being.

[m02a16ds]

At least in the US context, the key word here is business. Under US law, how a not-for-profit religious association like a Church behaves is strongly protected. The prominent recent specific case of a person sued for not performing a same-sex marriage was not a Church (a voluntary donation-supported organization), but a for-profit wedding chapel where you paid to have a ceremony performed.

Please, don't pretend that "it's only about business, not Church". Just don't. Sure, it makes you look cool, and us like bigots, but it's simply not true. My former friend (obviously, not anymore) made it very clear that he wished to hang my godfather (who is a Catholic priest) à la lanterne for not marrying gay couples. It's been almost three years and so far no LGBT-person/LGBT-ally told me that they disagree with that former friend.

[praetorius]

Please, don't pretend that "it's only about business, not Church". Just don't. Sure, it makes you look cool, and us like bigots, but it's simply not true. My former friend (obviously, not anymore) made it very clear that he wished to hang my godfather (who is a Catholic priest) à la lanterne for not marrying gay couples. It's been almost three years and so far no LGBT-person/LGBT-ally told me that they disagree with that former friend.

I was very specific that I was talking about the US context, which has a significantly different structure than what you see in your country. Calls for murderous violence against religious leaders --- even the most publicly bigoted --- are strongly rejected by the "main-stream liberal" opinion here (which includes many Christians). You may have trouble finding people who disagree with that in your circle of friends, but that's not true here; anyone saying such things would be strongly condemned and ostracized by everyone I know. Christians in the United States are a significant majority, even more so in areas of governmental power; they are at precisely zero risk of being persecuted and hanged by popular mob force in this country.

[m02a16ds]

I was very specific that I was talking about the US context, which has a significantly different structure than what you see in your country.

Why did you assume that I was not talking about the US? I was. Just because I don't live in the US doesn't mean that my godfather and my friends don't live/work there.

[praetorius]

I was very specific that I was talking about the US context, which has a significantly different structure than what you see in your country.

Why did you assume that I was not talking about the US? I was. Just because I don't live in the US doesn't mean that my godfather and my friends don't live/work there.

Sorry, I made an incorrect assumption based on your location information and inferred context from prior posts. Well, the good news is your godfather need not worry a bit about violence from the main LGBT movement here. Your ex-friend was expressing views extremely far out of the popular dialogue. My statement stands that such views would be unanimously condemned by everyone I know in LGBT-advocating secular and Christian communities. Your ex-friend sounds like a violent scumbag, which this country is certainly not free from; however, LGBT activists lynching Catholic priests is not a remotely plausible worry; it is highly unfortunate if you or your godfather are suffering unnecessary stress from such fears.

Given a specific death threat from a possibly unbalanced individual, have the police here been notified? That would generally be the appropriate course of action (rather than assuming the whole LGBT community is backing up a massive murderous conspiracy).

(By the way, you can now update your statistic about no LGBT/allies telling you they disagree with your former friend. I disagree with your former friend, so that makes at least 1.)

[Larien]

Just a general reminder, this is a Census thread and is meant for the presentation of opinions. Many of you are going to have blatantly conflicting opinions, especially since this is a very sensitive topic. Please remember this when you post your opinions - in other words, please refrain from using insulting language (e.g. "homophobe") when posting, and please refrain from targeting other specific members with your general opinions (if you want to debate your opinions, PP&S and Hot Box are both more appropriate places).

Thank you.

Larien, Census mod

[m02a16ds]

however, LGBT activists lynching Catholic priests is not a remotely plausible worry; it is highly unfortunate if you or your godfather are suffering unnecessary stress from such fears.

Given a specific death threat from a possibly unbalanced individual, have the police here been notified? That would generally be the appropriate course of action (rather than assuming the whole LGBT community is backing up a massive murderous conspiracy).

(By the way, you can now update your statistic about no LGBT/allies telling you they disagree with your former friend. I disagree with your former friend, so that makes at least 1.)

The potentiality of being actually murdered was not our only concern. It's no less disturbing that one can tell one's friend "I want your parent dead" and be praised/not be criticised for that, yet for saying "I don't like people who want my parent dead" I receive insults. No, the police was not notified.

It's not "assuming", people actually told me "I second your ex-friend's words" or were being silent, when this issue was being brought up. You are the first person I meet, on- or offline, to condemn his stance. I wouldn't extrapolate one person's views to the whole community, if it really was just one person's voice. But there were several people (from very different parts of the globe) who labeled me "homophobe" for saying that entering a sacramental marriage and suing priests is not a constitutional right, and a no in this regard is not a discrimination of citizens. I don't mind being called homophobic, for that matter. If any "no" to LGBT community means homophobia, then I am a homophobe, deal. (A "homophobe" who advocates for LGBT people on any occasion, when real homophobes attack....) But LGBT radicals call to hurt, alienate and dehumanize homophobes and "homophobes" exactly as homophobes without quotes call to hurt, alienate and dehumanize LGBT people. And I don't see any difference between conservative bigotry and liberal bigotry. I can't stand both, equally.

[m02a16ds]

I'm sorry, I wrote my latest message before the moderatorial appeared, and it may take time to reword and edit it. I am ready to do this, if need be, or I can delete the whole post, if others consider it offensive. Just let me know.

[Larien]

I'm sorry, I wrote my latest message before the moderatorial appeared, and it may take time to reword and edit it. I am ready to do this, if need be, or I can delete the whole post, if others consider it offensive. Just let me know.

The conversation is great - I'm actually learning a ton, so thanks to all of you! - I just wanted to make sure no more insults happened. :) I'm sorry if my message came on too strong.

[praetorius]

But LGBT radicals call to hurt, alienate and dehumanize homophobes and "homophobes" exactly as homophobes without quotes call to hurt, alienate and dehumanize LGBT people. And I don't see any difference between conservative bigotry and liberal bigotry. I can't stand both, equally.

I agree that many members of the LGBT community can be too hasty in automatically equating Christianity with opposition to LGBT issues. I have experienced often myself people being flummoxed by the fact that I could support LGBT equality while identifying as a Christian. However, I personally find such mistakes to be highly "understandable" (in need of reconciliation rather than condemnation) in the context of historical US anti-LGBT discrimination. Nearly every vocal anti-LGBT homophobe-without-quotes has blathered on (pseudo-)religious grounds, and Churches of every denomination have done poorly at excluding LGBT members and seemingly siding with the worst of the "haters." The result is several generations of LGBT activists who feel rejected and isolated from their childhood Church "homes," and view all of Christianity as a homogeneous mass of bigotry. Such a view, and the resulting "liberal bigotry," is, in my opinion, incorrect, but thoroughly understandable; and has causes for which Christian Churches ought to repent. I do not place the onus on un-Churched LGBT activists to sort through the fine details of theological reasoning that might separate legitimate "technical" reservations against same-sex marriage from crude homophobia. In my opinion, it is Christian Churches who bear the responsibility for re-establishing relations with the LGBT community along lines that clearly reject harm, alienation, and dehumanization of all people.

[m02a16ds]

Such a view, and the resulting "liberal bigotry," is, in my opinion, incorrect, but thoroughly understandable; and has causes for which Christian Churches ought to repent.

I saw LGBT people who never were religious dehumanizing anti-LGBT people who never were religious, as well as the other way around. Are churches to blame here too? Or maybe it is only flawed human nature, regardless of religious beliefs or lack thereof? And a gay person who showers a same-sex marriage opposer with insults and expresses a desire to see them suffer and die, is motivated by nothing else than anger and hatred? None of us humans is completely immune to these, unfortunately, but why is telling a straight or ace person to calm down completely normal, while telling a gay (bi, etc.) person to calm down is intolerance and hate speech?

[praetorius]

I saw LGBT people who never were religious dehumanizing anti-LGBT people who never were religious, as well as the other way around. Are churches to blame here too? Or maybe it is only flawed human nature, regardless of religious beliefs or lack thereof? And a gay person who showers a same-sex marriage opposer with insults and expresses a desire to see them suffer and die, is motivated by nothing else than anger and hatred?

Indeed, there's plenty of blame for flawed human nature to be laid on all sides. Our human inclinations to hate never help towards peaceful resolutions. So far as the Church knows something about love, forgiveness, and reconciliation, the Church should be leading the way on that, not playing the "let's claim our equal share of hating" game.

None of us humans is completely immune to these, unfortunately, but why is telling a straight or ace person to calm down completely normal, while telling a gay (bi, etc.) person to calm down is intolerance and hate speech?

From the US side, I see this as a matter of recognizing and neutralizing privilege. One impression I have gotten from some of your past posts is that you are acutely aware of effects resonating from the persecution of religious beliefs not too long ago under Soviet Communism --- when Christian activists actually risked being sent to labor camps, and the resulting society was dominated by anti-religious secularism. In the US, however, being a heterosexual (or the sort of ace who can pass for it) Christian places one in the favor of privilege and power; on the side of the overwhelming majority of, e.g., elected government officials. Here, it is the LGBT community who have faced real threats of being brutally murdered; who have historically been oppressed and silenced. Within this context, telling a gay person to "calm down" about gay rights issues is an abusive perpetuation of the hetero-privileged status quo. Heterosexual Christians (at least of the white male wealthy kind) currently have no problems having their voices heard in society; quite often as the only voices. Within this context of historical unequal power, it is more just to give greater leeway for (righteously) indignant rage to the oppressed.

EDIT: in the case of a "gay person who ... expresses a desire to see them suffer and die," this is way beyond the line, and I'm in no way condoning letting such speech "slide." It is highly unfortunate that Sonechko has apparently encountered a much less peaceful sub-culture within LGBT activism than I have seen in my experience. Anyone calling for "suffering and death" of their opposition should be called out on it, rather than receive the cowardly silence of complicity.

[SwirlyKitten]

As an aromatic I don't support marriage at all between anyone. I think I should not be pressured to find a romantic partner and instead be allowed to marry my friend. In fact when I get older I'll probably marry my friend and pretend we're lesbians.

[kaysir]

heck yeah heck yeah flippin right heck yeah heck yeah
I don't think I'll get married, but everyone should be able to if they want to. America finally came through on that. Hopefully more good things are to come. We certainly need them.

[DreadfulBetty]

Seems that I'm the only one who's married to a same sex partner so far.

[gayasanaro]

I support it obviously and I'm happy for all the couples that can get married now, but I also don't think anyone should get tax benefits based on their relationship status.

[Hooded_Crow]

I support equality. So yes. Love is love.

[Xavy]

I wholeheartedly support same sex marriage, although I admit until a few years ago, my position used to be more like indifference.

[Desmister]

While I personally don't really care about marriage (I certainly don't want to get married), I wholeheartedly support people who want to marry the ones they love. I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be able to marry because of their sexuality. I'm definitely happy for all the couples that can get married now that couldn't before.

[Guest]

I support it, regardless of my own religion. What others do with their lives is none of my business. Also, you can't really control who you love so I don't understand how/why it's sinful.

[CarrotMiku]

I'm aromantic, but I support it 100% and wish more could be done throughout the world for marriage equality. Just don't expect me to get married EVER! XD

[borealmist]

I don't think the state should recognize any types of relationships as being special, as it will always lead to regulation of what is considered ok and what isn't, where some relationships will not be as recognized as others.

It would be fine to provide a number of standard relationship templates that people can file, no different from any other contracts, defining things like economics, mutual support responsibilities, etc, and some standard rules for biological relations. And people should be allowed to hold or not hold any ceremony they like.

Barring that, of course I think same sex marriage should be as ok as any other kind of marriage, I just don't see why same-sex or other-sex marriages should be more valid in the eyes of the state than poly marriages or a formalized QP relationship, or various other possible combinations.

[LenaLuthor]

I support same-sex marriage 200%.

[Guest]

This poll is being locked and moved to the read-only Census Archive for 2015. As part of ongoing Census Forum organization, and in an attempt to keep the demographics of the polls current with the active user base at the time, each poll will last for one year. However, members are allowed and even encouraged to restart new polls similar to the archived ones if they like them.

Serran
SPF&A & Census Moderator