Do you think that love is actually a made up concept?

[binary suns]

I guess infatuation renders you blind when it comes to your lover's shortcomings. I'm not blind. I know his shortcomings. But I find that I love him and accept all of him. That the things that could potentially have driven some people away don't drive me away.

Can the same shortcomings drive you away if you see them in people other than your partner? If sometimes yes, why?

No. His potential shortcomings aren't things that would drive me away from anyone. That is why I feel this is a strong relationship. We're well matched.

If you found someone else earlier at a dating site whose set of features and values matched yours, would you feel the same intense emotions? Do they arise just from the understanding that you fit with each other like a key into a lock or pieces of a puzzle?

so love = culture + shared experiences + primal sense of interest

:D

I just thought of a good (I hope) analogy to maybe help aromantics see the difference between romantic feelings and "friendshippy" feelings. It's like the difference between the love you feel for your family and the love you feel for your friends. It's still love but it's different and if I asked you how it's you different you would have a hard time putting that difference into words, right? Well, romantic love is the same, it's a similar feeling but different and I cannot put into words how it's different from friendship love. I'm not saying it's better, bigger or stronger than familial or friendship love, it's just different.

Actually, no it wouldnt be all that difficult, at least for me. If you asked me what the difference between family "love" and friendship "love" is, my answer is that none would be "love". Family would be a group in which the members involved gain a certain sense of acomplishment from looking after one another, assuming of course that you're (as in the general person) not at odds with them as i am.

For me what you may call family love is a sense of obligation, whether direct or indirect that one may subject themselves to out of psychological pressure and cultural conditioning. As for friends love, again basing it on my experience is a type of businnes transactions. Basically you pay for something with somethig. May be commaradery, a sense of relation to a similar individual (not to be confused with a relationship), money, material possesions, favors, etc.

the concept that is usually named "romantic love", you are naming "love"

well, actually, hold that thought. "love" has multiple definitions, one is "deep affection for another" one is "deep interest for an object or experience" and then the rest of the definitions have to do with romance and sex.

[Guest]

in our pursuit of understanding, we simply grasp onto the stick with greater strength and a more stable hold.

Teagz!!! Totally true!!! You really should read this, it's basically an entire book about that one statement.. http://www.re-press.org/book-files/OA_Version_780980544060_Prince_of_Networks.pdf

[Lord Jade Cross]

I had a debate with a friend about this. He could not comprehend the concept of romantic attraction, and when I explained it in the traditional sense, including the neurotransmitters stuff, felling happiness and excitement with their presence and deep sadness with their absence. He answered, "So I have romantic attraction for everyone I feel close too? Because I feel all that both for my SO and for my best friend, except I want to have sex with one and not the other". No one was able to give a satisfactory answer.

It made sense at that point. Every relationship with each person is different, and, according to him, the concept of romantic love is a way to enforce monogamy and controlling people's sexuality. And it even made me question my orientation once again, since most of my past crushes were somehow "forced".

How would you people answer to that?

I have to agree with your friend on several points, especially since every time i see a couple (one that i can examine at a safe distance of course) there seems to be this underlying factor of belonging to just that person and no one else can even dare share that. So it seems plausible to say that romantic love is a restraining device placed on the psyche of a person.

to those people, this sense of belonging is precisely what love is. you (and I) fear, distrust, and/or dislike that sense of belonging, because to us it is "sickness" and not "love". to us, we see other people long for that type of connection and say it is fantasy, but to them it is reality. to us it is something to discard, to them it is something to dream about until you find someone to realize it with.

understanding that, may be the key to understanding what romantic loves and that it does exist.

Yeah but i experience romantic love and I'm not possessive... not like that, anyway. There is a feeling that makes you want to be the most important person to the one you love, because they're the most important person to you... whether you allow that feeling to turn you into a jealous, possessive, controlling dick, or whether you use your thinking brain and say "I don't have to abide by every feeling I have" is dependent upon the person. I don't think it really speaks to the reality of love.

This is an area where the concept of love VS what is love is incredibly difficult to separate.

I believe that, what "is" love is precisely what it is for you. the concept of love is the potential of love. the concept of love is the sum of what it "is" for all of us, plus what we all collectively believe it could be. our understanding of love is between what love "is" and what love could be. we can strive to better understand what love could be, which is what you are doing right now with this thread, but knowledge has infinite potential, we must not forget that unknowing is not a shameful thing since unknowing is required for us to know at all. they are two ends of the same stick :) in our pursuit of understanding, we simply grasp onto the stick with greater strength and a more stable hold.

We are unfortunately made to feel shame if not directly shamed for not knowing. And i confess, i have felt shame at times, partially due to outside influences and partially due to my own personal ideal and nature of curiosity.

[binary suns]

remember then, that "shame" is just an extension of "embarrassment" and "feeling awkward"

think of these emotions, as a tool that helps guide us to more quickly judge "appropriateness" from "inappropriateness" and "morality" from "immorality"

remember who you are and what beliefs you stand for. over time, try to make those beliefs grow (or restrict them) in order to discover what you feel is the best way to be "moral" or "helpful to others, etc." and when others try to make you feel shame and embarrassment, remember that that is their sense of right and wrong, and remember what is your sense of right and wrong, and strive to consciously accept or reject their beliefs, to judge for yourself if their beliefs should be yours as well.

[Light02]

As the avatar of some AVENite, whose name I forgot, reads, 'I'm not looking for another half because I'm whole; I'm looking for another whole'. But again, that's rather in the friendship area in my book.

I just thought of a good (I hope) analogy to maybe help aromantics see the difference between romantic feelings and "friendshippy" feelings. It's like the difference between the love you feel for your family and the love you feel for your friends. It's still love but it's different and if I asked you how it's you different you would have a hard time putting that difference into words, right? Well, romantic love is the same, it's a similar feeling but different and I cannot put into words how it's different from friendship love. I'm not saying it's better, bigger or stronger than familial or friendship love, it's just different.

That's a nice try, but I'm a tough case for you because I haven't experienced familial love since (at latest) the puberty, so I don't remember if I've had any My ties to the family have been based on habit and weakness for all these years. I believe that's often the case with marriages too (see codependency).

I just thought of a good (I hope) analogy to maybe help aromantics see the difference between romantic feelings and "friendshippy" feelings. It's like the difference between the love you feel for your family and the love you feel for your friends. It's still love but it's different and if I asked you how it's you different you would have a hard time putting that difference into words, right? Well, romantic love is the same, it's a similar feeling but different and I cannot put into words how it's different from friendship love. I'm not saying it's better, bigger or stronger than familial or friendship love, it's just different.

Actually, no it wouldnt be all that difficult, at least for me. If you asked me what the difference between family "love" and friendship "love" is, my answer is that none would be "love". Family would be a group in which the members involved gain a certain sense of acomplishment from looking after one another, assuming of course that you're (as in the general person) not at odds with them as i am.

For me what you may call family love is a sense of obligation, whether direct or indirect that one may subject themselves to out of psychological pressure and cultural conditioning. As for friends love, again basing it on my experience is a type of businnes transactions. Basically you pay for something with somethig. May be commaradery, a sense of relation to a similar individual (not to be confused with a relationship), money, material possesions, favors, etc.

Okay, I give up on trying to find analogies and ways to describe the difference between romantic and other kinds of love but I will say this again: I cannot describe that difference. I can't describe the diffence between red and blue, I can't describe the difference between salt and sugar, between cake and chocalate, between happy and sad music, I just can't. But I can feel that difference.

[Guest]

In physics, we can't see particles. We know they're there because we can see their reactions (Rutherford's gold foil experiment, anyone?).

So it is with love.

[Lord Jade Cross]

You teach me and i teach you. Pokeemon!... *disc scracthes* ok got off track there for a second but youre signature reminded me of the song and the message was pretty much the same.

[allrightalready]

True, but the flirting and attraction are at times the factors that lead to what people refer to as love if the people become involved. I could have phrased it better perhaps but my question is still the same.

if some people call poison food that does not make it food (monstersanto is even doing this)

love exists even if only a very few understand and do it and the rest mess it up and make it harder for everyone else

Forgive my ignorance but who/what is monstersanto?

"Sir Richard Doll told a commission investigating Monsanto's Agent Orange that there was no evidence that the chemical increased risks of cancer and genetic defects. He did not mention that he was being paid $1,500 a day by Monsanto at the time.

Monsanto has used similar paid shills and other techniques to propagandize the safety of genetically modified food, aspartame, and other products, including wrecking the careers of scientists who discover problems with their products.

When Dr. Arpad Pusztai conducted studies showing that rats fed on certain GM potatoes had suffered stunted growth and damage to the immune system, liver, and heart, he was suspended from his job, ordered to hand over all his data, and threatened with legal action if he spoke to anyone on the subject."

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2006/01/04/how-monsanto-poisons-science-at-the-cost-of-your-health.aspx

"When you take a moment to reflect on the history of product development at Monsanto, what do you find? Here are twelve products that Monsanto has brought to market. See if you can spot the pattern…"

Monsanto’s Dirty Dozen: The 12 Most Awful Products Made By Monsanto http://fracturedparadigm.com/2013/04/15/monsantos-dirty-dozen-the-12-most-awful-products-made-by-monsanto/#ixzz3eTbxl6wx

[Lord Jade Cross]

Wait. That company that enlisted the aid of federal help for controlling the food productions?

[Sage Raven Domino]

In physics, we can't see particles. We know they're there because we can see their reactions (Rutherford's gold foil experiment, anyone?).

So it is with love.

Light sometimes behaves like a stream a particles but sometimes like a wave, can't be described precisely by either model.

I mean, the concept of love provides just an approximate explanation of certain human behavioural patterns, and a better explanation may be found soon. Love (and any feeling, for that matter) is just a model, not a material entity.

Furthermore, there's likely no 'ultimate theory of affection' - I'm generally a fan of falsificationism :D

[DeejaeHarper]

So i ask again, is love real and what evidence (tangible not ideological) is there to disprove that its non existence its actually incorrect?

I know there is physical proof, because I feel love towards people. But I can also hate them in a second. I don't believe that love exists outside what the body can produce, which is why some people feel sexual attraction and I do not.

[binary suns]

As the avatar of some AVENite, whose name I forgot, reads, 'I'm not looking for another half because I'm whole; I'm looking for another whole'. But again, that's rather in the friendship area in my book.

I just thought of a good (I hope) analogy to maybe help aromantics see the difference between romantic feelings and "friendshippy" feelings. It's like the difference between the love you feel for your family and the love you feel for your friends. It's still love but it's different and if I asked you how it's you different you would have a hard time putting that difference into words, right? Well, romantic love is the same, it's a similar feeling but different and I cannot put into words how it's different from friendship love. I'm not saying it's better, bigger or stronger than familial or friendship love, it's just different.

That's a nice try, but I'm a tough case for you because I haven't experienced familial love since (at latest) the puberty, so I don't remember if I've had any My ties to the family have been based on habit and weakness for all these years. I believe that's often the case with marriages too (see codependency).

I just thought of a good (I hope) analogy to maybe help aromantics see the difference between romantic feelings and "friendshippy" feelings. It's like the difference between the love you feel for your family and the love you feel for your friends. It's still love but it's different and if I asked you how it's you different you would have a hard time putting that difference into words, right? Well, romantic love is the same, it's a similar feeling but different and I cannot put into words how it's different from friendship love. I'm not saying it's better, bigger or stronger than familial or friendship love, it's just different.

Actually, no it wouldnt be all that difficult, at least for me. If you asked me what the difference between family "love" and friendship "love" is, my answer is that none would be "love". Family would be a group in which the members involved gain a certain sense of acomplishment from looking after one another, assuming of course that you're (as in the general person) not at odds with them as i am.

For me what you may call family love is a sense of obligation, whether direct or indirect that one may subject themselves to out of psychological pressure and cultural conditioning. As for friends love, again basing it on my experience is a type of businnes transactions. Basically you pay for something with somethig. May be commaradery, a sense of relation to a similar individual (not to be confused with a relationship), money, material possesions, favors, etc.

Okay, I give up on trying to find analogies and ways to describe the difference between romantic and other kinds of love but I will say this again: I cannot describe that difference. I can't describe the diffence between red and blue, I can't describe the difference between salt and sugar, between cake and chocalate, between happy and sad music, I just can't. But I can feel that difference.

prettymuch.

In physics, we can't see particles. We know they're there because we can see their reactions (Rutherford's gold foil experiment, anyone?).

So it is with love.

prettymuch :o

You teach me and i teach you. Pokeemon!... *disc scracthes* ok got off track there for a second but youre signature reminded me of the song and the message was pretty much the same.

:D prettymuch!

[Sage Raven Domino]

I know there is physical proof, because I feel love towards people.

That's the way to 'prove' that someone is romantic. But what if one hasn't experienced anything resembling love? What can be used as a proof of aromanticism, other than the absence of love for X years, which can 'prove' it only with some non-100% certainty?

This brings us dangerously close to the malicious 'I can't call myself aro until I go on a ton of dates' argument.

Besides, do you feel something really unique towards your 'love interests' that can't be explained by friendship, aesthetic / sensual attraction or habit?

[DeejaeHarper]

I know there is physical proof, because I feel love towards people.

That's the way to 'prove' that someone is romantic. But what if one hasn't experienced anything resembling love? What can be used as a proof of aromanticism, other than the absence of love for X years, which can 'prove' it only with some non-100% certainty?

This brings us dangerously close to the malicious 'I can't call myself aro until I go on a ton of dates' argument.

Besides, do you feel something really unique towards your 'love interests' that can't be explained by friendship, aesthetic / sensual attraction or habit?

I will explain myself a little better, I was side tracked by my cat trying to snuggle with me in an attempt to get more catnip. She is a bit of a druggy at the moment.

I am not a scientist and there is a lot of proof online for chemical release in conjuction with love. All we have is our own perceptions on how we think the world runs. I don't feel sexual attraction to people, but I have loved people enough for me to be hurt by it. I have physically felt pain when I was rejected by someone I admired and cared for. It matters to me what they think, even if I don't want to love them. But I have known people who never felt the same connection to people.

I believe that love is a chemical reaction and unless you have memories and experiences with someone they are not going to be someone you truly value.

I can explain to someone the color of the ocean, but if they have never seen it then I have to use other words. "Like a large bathtub" or "like land but always moving." Until you see a picture or go there, then its not going to be easy.

So I guess the only way to explain to someone who doesn't know what (romantic) love is, would be to describe it by what it isn't. Or by what they already know.

It is enjoying someone above other people. It's not being annoyed by their faults, instead finding them cute or endearing. Its wanting to be around them.

[Hooded_Crow]

I guess infatuation renders you blind when it comes to your lover's shortcomings. I'm not blind. I know his shortcomings. But I find that I love him and accept all of him. That the things that could potentially have driven some people away don't drive me away.

Can the same shortcomings drive you away if you see them in people other than your partner? If sometimes yes, why?

No. His potential shortcomings aren't things that would drive me away from anyone. That is why I feel this is a strong relationship. We're well matched.

If you found someone else earlier at a dating site whose set of features and values matched yours, would you feel the same intense emotions? Do they arise just from the understanding that you fit with each other like a key into a lock or pieces of a puzzle?

That's a good question. It's difficult to answer because it's difficult to project myself into that situation. I wouldn't have been on a dating site to begin with XD and whenever I try to imagine meeting someone with a set of features and values compatible with mine the person who pops into my head is Phil. Automatic. I supposed it's possible another person in this world could have been a wonderful partner and that if I'd met them instead of Phil I'd have fallen for them. But as fate (or whatever) would have it, it was Phil I met and fell in love with.

There is the friendship element that is very important here. Above everything else, Phil is my best friend. And the love grew from there into something more.

Instinctively, I'd say there's more to it than being "perfect on paper". We talked and talked and we clicked. I suppose there are some people who have roughly the same values as Phil and the same features but who I wouldn't have fallen for because it wouldn't have clicked. I don't know. Difficult question, as I said >_>

[Groovy Teacakes]

Actually, no it wouldnt be all that difficult, at least for me. If you asked me what the difference between family "love" and friendship "love" is, my answer is that none would be "love". Family would be a group in which the members involved gain a certain sense of acomplishment from looking after one another, assuming of course that you're (as in the general person) not at odds with them as i am.

For me what you may call family love is a sense of obligation, whether direct or indirect that one may subject themselves to out of psychological pressure and cultural conditioning. As for friends love, again basing it on my experience is a type of businnes transactions. Basically you pay for something with somethig. May be commaradery, a sense of relation to a similar individual (not to be confused with a relationship), money, material possesions, favors, etc.

I disagree. Although these things, such as obligation and camaraderie, may be the biological incentives for these feelings, I do think that there is a feeling of love towards friends and family members. It's the feeling on happiness whenever you see or talk to them and after you have talked to them and also the desire for them to be happy or to do things to make them happy. Doubtless there are biological incentives to create these feelings, but they do exist and that is what I would consider love to be. In my opinion this makes love just as real as hunger, fear or empathy - all of which are created by the body to make you do things favourable to your personal survival.

[Lord Jade Cross]

Unfortunately for me, my family doesnt cause feelings of happiness in me. They mostly create the opposite of it which is why i say that this is a feeling of oblugation. I dont have a great deal of friends either and generally i dont like being around people much, even if i know them which is why i say that friendship is a transaction.

[Guest]

Unfortunately for me, my family doesnt cause feelings of happiness in me. They mostly create the opposite of it which is why i say that this is a feeling of oblugation. I dont have a great deal of friends either and generally i dont like being around people much, even if i know them which is why i say that friendship is a transaction.

But Jade... what if you just say "I don't love my family"? Doesn't that pretty much solve your problem? Seems your major confusion is that you don't feel what other people feel for their family (I don't either, btw), and so you've decided that what you do feel is called "love" and therefore your "love" is what everyone else's "love" is.

[Lord Jade Cross]

Im not confused by the meaning of love in a family or what its supposed to be. With me, i can say that i dont love them and that what's commmonly reffered to as family love is an obligation to me. It doesnt change what i feel this obligations is.

Im not trying to say that what i feel is what should be felt by everyone. Just that what most others refer to as love is what i call obligation

[Guest]

Im not confused by the meaning of love in a family or what its supposed to be. With me, i can say that i dont love them and that what's commmonly reffered to as family love is an obligation to me.

See, but you can't say that. You can't simultaneously say that you don't experience familial love and also tell other people how they feel familial love.

[Lord Jade Cross]

I mean that what people feel to be family love, is what i feel is an obligation. Im not saying that family love is an obligation for everyone, only that it is to me. Other people can say that they feel love for their family and i couldnt conciously say that they were wrong or otherwise. But when asked what i personally think it is for me, its an obligation.

[Frigid Pink]

I mean that what people feel to be family love, is what i feel is an obligation. Im not saying that family love is an obligation for everyone, only that it is to me. Other people can say that they feel love for their family and i couldnt conciously say that they were wrong or otherwise. But when asked what i personally think it is for me, its an obligation.

If I didn't feel "familial love," then I wouldn't call or refer to my experience as "familial love." I don't love *all* of my family members! I certainly don't feel obligated to the ones I don't love (or even dislike), either! Sounds like you may need better boundaries with your family members.

[Lord Jade Cross]

Bondaries are a factor, yes. However outside factors (mostly financial) create a certain pressure which i have to comply with because otherwise the family is affected as a unit rather than individual members. So its an obligation; that it is a likeable obligation is another matter entirely.

[Frigid Pink]

Bondaries are a factor, yes. However outside factors (mostly financial) create a certain pressure which i have to comply with because otherwise the family is affected as a unit rather than individual members. So its an obligation; that it is a likeable obligation is another matter entirely.

Only if you're financially dependent on said family members.

[Guest]

Bondaries are a factor, yes. However outside factors (mostly financial) create a certain pressure which i have to comply with because otherwise the family is affected as a unit rather than individual members. So its an obligation; that it is a likeable obligation is another matter entirely.

Only if you're financially dependent on said family members.

Unless Jade's family is dependent upon him...

[Lord Jade Cross]

Both statements are true. Im as much financially dependent on them as they are of me. If either one fails to uphold their end, we all suffer the consequences.

[Guest]

yeah, that's real obligation, I agree with ya there. I'm sorry, Jade, that sucks.

[Guest]

Neurotransmitters. High levels of dopamine and oxytocin, and low levels of serotonin.

But it's e very simplified answer, and the answer is somewhat different if you talk about love in general (including long-term romance and platonic love), or if you talk about attraction and limerence (which aren't really love strictly speaking, but where the brain is highly intoxicated by a crazy cocktail of neurotransmitters).

Which very neatly explains why SSRI - which, by their very function, boost sero and reduce dopa - made me effectively aro when I went on them over seven years ago. I'm pretty much chemically incapable of becoming limerent again, as long as I keep taking them.

(An inhibition which, in case you haven't read enough of my rants, I see as a very good thing. ;))

However, your second paragraph is really important. Limerence/"romantic love" is, IMO, indeed due to messed up brain chemistry that has been shown to resemble disorders like OCD. What I actually think true love is is something else entirely - and more of a philosophical/spiritual stance than anything based in emotions.

[EmpathyAce]

This is an interesting topic. :o

Well, I'm no expert in psychology, but here's my two cents.

I think that as our species evolved and gained more sentience, they developed mentally as well as emotionally. Psychology defines our most basic human emotions as love and anger. Of course, when we were not specifically of the sapien species, we would have been less capable of these things because we were not evolved enough to experience them. With our advanced brains, however, we are more capable of experiencing emotions rather than our past species or other animals.

Love is one of our most basic human emotions, as it is one of the first to ever develop since birth. Freud describes love as having stages: oral (when we are babies and rely on our mouths for attention and food), anal (when we are toddlers and first learn self-control), oedipal (really really complicated, but its about loving your parent of the opposite sex basically), and so on and so forth. You can look it up for the rest.

And this isn't limited to romantic love, per se. Psychology also describes us as having two major types of love: passionate (what you would feel for a partner), and companionate (for friends and family), and each has subsections depending on whether or not that specific type of love contains passion, commitment, and intimacy. You can look that up, too.

So basically, while we may not have had the capacity to feel love in past evolutionary states, in our current state of the Homo sapien, it is not really "made up" but more a bi-product of our evolution and adaptability for survival.

If you're really interested in the psychological standpoint of love, check out Freud's Theory of Love and Hate.

[Lord Jade Cross]

Im familiar with Freuds theories. Though there are controversies with them.

The Oedipus complex for example was seen as one of the most controversial of his theories because people could not comprehend how a child could be in a sexual sense attracted to a parent of the opppoite sex. If the theory was used as a way to explain preferences for example, the theory fell when children would prefer a parent of the same sex rather than one of the opposite.

Leaving aside his theories for a moment, love still seems like a very ambiguous concept. Its possible that because of its ambigousness, there may never be a definitive meaning to it as it has been stated in some of the previous posts. At least to my understanding, and trying to give it all as much room as possible so as not to exclude things, humans may have the capacity to love under certain circumstances that are favorable for it; but similar to that "if a tree falls in the forest and theres noone around to hear it, does it makes a sound?" question, i imagine that the same holds true for the concept of love.