Was creating Israel wrong or a mistake? Thoughts on Zionism.

[JLK97]

I'm a staunch zionist and I oppose Israel on the grounds that it was made by Europeans. The colonization by European/American Jews of Palestine is also considered a violation of property rights in my opinion. I dislike both sides in the conflict as violence by both sides fuel the conflict more. I do believe Israel is the primary abuser in the conflict as it has killed more Palestinians (mostly civilians) while the majority of Israelis who've been killed are soldiers.

Please do not accuse me of anti semitism its an old shitty "argument". I also have lots of respect and like for Jews. I also have nothing personal against Israelis or Palestinians (except the politicians/military generals/soldiers who kill or attack civilians and fuel the conflict).

[dash]

If someone says something anti-semitic, "please don't accuse me of anti-semitism, it's an old shitty 'argument'" doesn't magically negate the anti-semitism. If someone's being called out on anti-semitism for the things they say, and this keeps happening, maybe they should try to better understand why what they're saying is problematic, rather than accuse the person calling them out as being "the problem" and of having a "shitty 'argument'".

It's not an "argument." It's a fact of 2,000+ years of history. Whatever you want to personally think about Israel is your own business, but you don't get to open a conversation like this while preemptively taking a shot at anyone (Jew or Gentile) who might find something you're saying problematic and call you out on anti-semitism.

Nope. Because that's what you did here -- you posted things that you think people may interpret as anti-semitic, but before anyone said anything to call you out, pre-emptively attacked US as being the problem. Now nothing you could say can have any anti-semitic impact! It's magic! /sarcasm/

You know what IS anti-semitic? Telling me (as a Jew) that I don't have the right to call out anti-semitism if I see it, because you personally consider it "a shitty argument." (Oh wow, I'm quaking in my boots.) If you have a lot of respect for Jews, as you say, you won't try to dictate to us what we can say and feel.

[Skycaptain]

Israel, in my opinion was created to assuage a lot of guilty consciences. Because after WWII and the discovery of what really went on in Germany, people felt that they hadn't done enough to assist Jews quickly enough. The creation of a safe haven was a fine, noble scheme, and nobody can really be blamed for choosing an area which has cultural significance for Jews

Unfortunately the evolution of society has resulted in the same part of the world being regarded as of great importance by several major religions.

This has, sadly, resulted in the situation where, whilst the vast majority of all people simply wish to coexist peacefully, a vocal minority on all sides are using religious rhetoric as an excuse to fan the flames of intolerance.

As an aside, I know that this is a contentious topic, and people will have strong opinions, particularly if they and their families and friends have suffered as a result of other people's actions in the area.

[eee]

If someone says something anti-semitic, "please don't accuse me of anti-semitism, it's an old shitty 'argument'" doesn't magically negate the anti-semitism. If someone's being called out on anti-semitism for the things they say, and this keeps happening, maybe they should try to better understand why what they're saying is problematic, rather than accuse the person calling them out as being "the problem" and of having a "shitty 'argument'".

It's not an "argument." It's a fact of 2,000+ years of history. Whatever you want to personally think about Israel is your own business, but you don't get to open a conversation like this while preemptively taking a shot at anyone (Jew or Gentile) who might find something you're saying problematic and call you out on anti-semitism.

Nope. Because that's what you did here -- you posted things that you think people may interpret as anti-semitic, but before anyone said anything to call you out, pre-emptively attacked US as being the problem. Now nothing you could say can have any anti-semitic impact! It's magic! /sarcasm/

You know what IS anti-semitic? Telling me (as a Jew) that I don't have the right to call out anti-semitism if I see it, because you personally consider it "a shitty argument." (Oh wow, I'm quaking in my boots.) If you have a lot of respect for Jews, as you say, you won't try to dictate to us what we can say and fe

What race or nation matters to you? What lives do you consider as precious? Just curious.

[allrightalready]

according to the "history" book used (bible etc) abraham invaded a place and took it from the indigenous people (at the command of some voice that no one else heard but now a large proportion of the planet worships) and now some people claim half of his descendants were always in that place and deserve to own it (even though the two sets of his descendants are now locked in a seeming permanent war over just how to "worship" that voice)

[allrightalready]

You know what IS anti-semitic? Telling me (as a Jew) that I don't have the right to call out anti-semitism if I see it, because you personally consider it "a shitty argument." (Oh wow, I'm quaking in my boots.) If you have a lot of respect for Jews, as you say, you won't try to dictate to us what we can say and feel.

semitic =/= jewish

"As language studies are interwoven with cultural studies, the term also came to describe the extended cultures and ethnicities, as well as the history of these varied peoples as associated by close geographic and linguistic distribution.^[1] Today, the word "Semite" may be used to refer to any member of any of a number of peoples of ancient Middle East including the Akkadians, Assyrians, Arameans, Phoenicians, Hebrews (Jews), Arabs, and their descendants.^[2]"

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people}

[LenaLuthor]

Exactly how are American and European jews less worthy than other jews?

[Zerο]

I'm a staunch zionist and I oppose Israel on the grounds that it was made by Europeans. The colonization by European/American Jews of Palestine is also considered a violation of property rights in my opinion. I dislike both sides in the conflict as violence by both sides fuel the conflict more. I do believe Israel is the primary abuser in the conflict as it has killed more Palestinians (mostly civilians) while the majority of Israelis who've been killed are soldiers.

Please do not accuse me of anti semitism its an old shitty "argument". I also have lots of respect and like for Jews. I also have nothing personal against Israelis or Palestinians (except the politicians/military generals/soldiers who kill or attack civilians and fuel the conflict).

I don't support either side, but I don't believe it's accurate to judge who the culprit is based on the body count alone. You can't blame someone for having better training/equipment.

[JLK97]

The Gaza Strip is essentially a modern day version of the Warsaw Ghetto. Its a shit hole destroyed city surrounded by walls with gun towers and dominated by an Islamic Fundamentalist group. I do not believe that Jews from Europe have a rightful claim to land that is currently Israel. I do believe that Jews who have lived there for centuries do. Israel's Iron Dome system takes out roughly 90% of the missiles shot into Israel while one missile from the IDF can blow up a whole street. Israel's creation was also helped by militant groups such as Lehi and Haganah which would now be considered terrorist groups like Hamas. Also economically if peace between the two people happened they would reap millions in wealth. An old favorite quote I like is "If goods do not cross borders, then soldiers will" -Bastiat.

Palestinians along with many Arabs are technically semites. Since Zionism advocates dominance for one group of semites over others I'd argue that Zionism itself is anti semitic.

[JLK97]

If someone says something anti-semitic, "please don't accuse me of anti-semitism, it's an old shitty 'argument'" doesn't magically negate the anti-semitism. If someone's being called out on anti-semitism for the things they say, and this keeps happening, maybe they should try to better understand why what they're saying is problematic, rather than accuse the person calling them out as being "the problem" and of having a "shitty 'argument'".

It's not an "argument." It's a fact of 2,000+ years of history. Whatever you want to personally think about Israel is your own business, but you don't get to open a conversation like this while preemptively taking a shot at anyone (Jew or Gentile) who might find something you're saying problematic and call you out on anti-semitism.

Nope. Because that's what you did here -- you posted things that you think people may interpret as anti-semitic, but before anyone said anything to call you out, pre-emptively attacked US as being the problem. Now nothing you could say can have any anti-semitic impact! It's magic! /sarcasm/

You know what IS anti-semitic? Telling me (as a Jew) that I don't have the right to call out anti-semitism if I see it, because you personally consider it "a shitty argument." (Oh wow, I'm quaking in my boots.) If you have a lot of respect for Jews, as you say, you won't try to dictate to us what we can say and feel.

Sorry I should've clarified better. Many people in my experience believe that criticizing Israel or being anti zionist makes one automatically anti semitic. If someone is actually being anti semitic (ex: they say all Jews are bankers who need to be killed) then they should be mocked and called out for it but criticizing/questioning military tactics or settlement building isn't anti semitism. Ive also been called anti semitic by non Jews.

[Guest]

I'm a staunch zionist and I oppose Israel on the grounds that it was made by Europeans. The colonization by European/American Jews of Palestine is also considered a violation of property rights in my opinion. I dislike both sides in the conflict as violence by both sides fuel the conflict more. I do believe Israel is the primary abuser in the conflict as it has killed more Palestinians (mostly civilians) while the majority of Israelis who've been killed are soldiers.

Please do not accuse me of anti semitism its an old shitty "argument". I also have lots of respect and like for Jews. I also have nothing personal against Israelis or Palestinians (except the politicians/military generals/soldiers who kill or attack civilians and fuel the conflict).

I agree with all this.

[Zerο]

If the leaks regarding the two state solution are true, I'm not a fan of Israel's behavior towards Palestine. Shrug, I almost pity the latter.

[JLK97]

I also want to clarify that I also think Palestinians are also fueling the conflict. Suicide bombing and attacks on civilians especially is not justifiable and is a war crime under international law. The problem with both sides is that they're run by complete bat shit fucks. Netanyahu is a right wing war hawk who pulled a George Wallace (a pro segregationist/white supremacist governor in Alabama during the civil rights movement) regarding his "busing in of arabs" speech. Meanwhile the Palestinians are dominated by a group that wants to return to 12th century Islamic caliphate with Sharia as the law of the land.

[Skycaptain]

Let us be fair here. The vast majority of people in the area, no matter what race, religion, or anything else only want one thing. To be able to live a normal life, without having a Damoclean sword of fear preached by a fundamentalist minority casting a dark shadow over their lives.

I ask everyone entering this debate to consider how would you feel, living your lives, wondering if everyone who looks or dresses differently from yourself is potentially looking to kill you. Life would be, and for everyone in Israel and Palestine is, a sort of hellish existence that other, more fortunate people, will hopefully never experience.

[kiaroskuro]

You know what IS anti-semitic? Telling me (as a Jew) that I don't have the right to call out anti-semitism if I see it, because you personally consider it "a shitty argument." (Oh wow, I'm quaking in my boots.) If you have a lot of respect for Jews, as you say, you won't try to dictate to us what we can say and feel.

semitic =/= jewish

"As language studies are interwoven with cultural studies, the term also came to describe the extended cultures and ethnicities, as well as the history of these varied peoples as associated by close geographic and linguistic distribution.^[1] Today, the word "Semite" may be used to refer to any member of any of a number of peoples of ancient Middle East including the Akkadians, Assyrians, Arameans, Phoenicians, Hebrews (Jews), Arabs, and their descendants.^[2]"

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people}

True, but the term anti-Semitism has only ever been used in the sense of 'hatred towards resp. discrimination against Jews'. No other Semitic ethnicities involved here.

[Sally]

Israel, in my opinion was created to assuage a lot of guilty consciences. Because after WWII and the discovery of what really went on in Germany, people felt that they hadn't done enough to assist Jews quickly enough. The creation of a safe haven was a fine, noble scheme, and nobody can really be blamed for choosing an area which has cultural significance for Jews

God, I wish people would simply read the history of what's now known as "the Middle East" before pontificating on it. The Brits had determined to create a homeland for Jews in the Middle East way before World War I, and they held the territory that's now held by Israel after WWI. In 1947, they relinquished that territory, and the United Nations offer the Jews and the Arabs that territory divided into two separate states. The Arabs refused it; the Jews accepted it. Israel was declared a nation in 1948 by Gen Gurion.

The Jews knew quite well that Israel would not be a safe haven, because even before it was a nation, they were constantly attacked by Arab groups. And they have had Hamas missiles shot into Israel ever since Israel relinquished Gaza.

Of course more Arabs have been killed than Jews. Israel is a modern state with modern weaponry. Hamas has missiles and suicide bombers. That doesn't mean that Hamas or any other Arab country has higher morals than Israel.

[dash]

Israel, in my opinion was created to assuage a lot of guilty consciences. Because after WWII and the discovery of what really went on in Germany, people felt that they hadn't done enough to assist Jews quickly enough. The creation of a safe haven was a fine, noble scheme, and nobody can really be blamed for choosing an area which has cultural significance for Jews

God, I wish people would simply read the history of what's now known as "the Middle East" before pontificating on it. The Brits had determined to create a homeland for Jews in the Middle East way before World War I, and they held the territory that's now held by Israel after WWI. In 1947, they relinquished that territory, and the United Nations offer the Jews and the Arabs that territory divided into two separate states. The Arabs refused it; the Jews accepted it. Israel was declared a nation in 1948 by Gen Gurion.

The Jews knew quite well that Israel would not be a safe haven, because even before it was a nation, they were constantly attacked by Arab groups. And they have had Hamas missiles shot into Israel ever since Israel relinquished Gaza.

Of course more Arabs have been killed than Jews. Israel is a modern state with modern weaponry. Hamas has missiles and suicide bombers. That doesn't mean that Hamas or any other Arab country has higher morals than Israel.

The Arabs refused it and immediately attacked Israel on all sides, with five+ armies. You all think life for the Jews in Israel was so wonderful before 1948?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/riots29.html

Israel was created by the Balfour Declaration in 1917, not out of "world guilt" after the Holocaust.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

More Arabs were killed last summer in Gaza than Israelis because Hamas uses civilians, including women and children, as human shields. They stored weapons in homes, mosques, schools, and UN centers, and placed missile launchers near civilian centers such as hospitals. They ordered civilians not to leave before attacks.

Gaza is not densely populated overall. Civilians could have been moved (or allowed to move) to safer places. The UN could have done some of this, as well.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4580/gaza-population-density

Also, is the "argument" here really that equal numbers of civilians have to die on both sides in a war for it to be "fair"? O.o If one side is effective at defending its civilians, builds an effective missile defense system and bomb shelters, and the other actively places civilians in harm's way and uses them as human shields, it's the FORMER who is to blame?

Let's be real here. Everyone go on and read the Hamas Charter (yes it really does cite the fake Protocols of the Elders of Zion), and then come back and tell me that Israel is to blame for defending itself against these people, who say right out in plain in their charter that they want to destroy all Jews. Not "all Israelis" -- they don't recognize Israel. ALL JEWS. Doesn't matter where we were born, doesn't matter how long our ancestors lived there or have been in exile. Get it? ALL JEWS.

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html

As a point of example:

"The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!""

(Meanwhile, if Israel wanted to kill all the so-called Palestinians -- there are no "Palestinians" historically, admits Hamas -- the war would have been long over by now.)

[Guest]

I think there is too much of a black and white morality when talking about this issue. Israel is NOT innocent in this and neither is Palestine.

I think creating Israel was a much needed thing, but I also think that what happened to the people already there is very similar to what happened to Native Americans in the US. There's really not much of a difference in regards to forcing people to move to new areas and whatnot except the Native Americans didn't have as much power in their situation as the Palestinians have and as far as I know, there was no smallpox outbreak.

[AshenPhoenix]

I personally don't believe either should be a thing mainly because both are based on a near theocratic ideal. I think if we wanted a place of refuge for Jews, a already created country should have volunteered and been sanctioned as a "Haven" where immigration rules for jews was more lax (as this was one of the reasons for assigning the territory to the Jews after WWII during the redrawing of country lines). But I don't think we should have allowed a country, any country, to be made a thing simply because it was on holy grounds, or there was history there based on religion. Tbh I think if we had focused on diffusing the situation rather than trying to aid any one side a lot of conflicts could've been avoided.

So I'm for neither. Tbh I share a disdain for most organized religions because they tend to cause things like this. It should be created into a neutral territory that is policed so both sides can worship there. Or something of the like.

[JLK97]

Israel, in my opinion was created to assuage a lot of guilty consciences. Because after WWII and the discovery of what really went on in Germany, people felt that they hadn't done enough to assist Jews quickly enough. The creation of a safe haven was a fine, noble scheme, and nobody can really be blamed for choosing an area which has cultural significance for Jews

God, I wish people would simply read the history of what's now known as "the Middle East" before pontificating on it. The Brits had determined to create a homeland for Jews in the Middle East way before World War I, and they held the territory that's now held by Israel after WWI. In 1947, they relinquished that territory, and the United Nations offer the Jews and the Arabs that territory divided into two separate states. The Arabs refused it; the Jews accepted it. Israel was declared a nation in 1948 by Gen Gurion.

The Jews knew quite well that Israel would not be a safe haven, because even before it was a nation, they were constantly attacked by Arab groups. And they have had Hamas missiles shot into Israel ever since Israel relinquished Gaza.

Of course more Arabs have been killed than Jews. Israel is a modern state with modern weaponry. Hamas has missiles and suicide bombers. That doesn't mean that Hamas or any other Arab country has higher morals than Israel.

The Arabs refused it and immediately attacked Israel on all sides, with five+ armies. You all think life for the Jews in Israel was so wonderful before 1948?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/riots29.html

Israel was created by the Balfour Declaration in 1917, not out of "world guilt" after the Holocaust.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

More Arabs were killed last summer in Gaza than Israelis because Hamas uses civilians, including women and children, as human shields. They stored weapons in homes, mosques, schools, and UN centers, and placed missile launchers near civilian centers such as hospitals. They ordered civilians not to leave before attacks.

Gaza is not densely populated overall. Civilians could have been moved (or allowed to move) to safer places. The UN could have done some of this, as well.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4580/gaza-population-density

Also, is the "argument" here really that equal numbers of civilians have to die on both sides in a war for it to be "fair"? O.o If one side is effective at defending its civilians, builds an effective missile defense system and bomb shelters, and the other actively places civilians in harm's way and uses them as human shields, it's the FORMER who is to blame?

Let's be real here. Everyone go on and read the Hamas Charter (yes it really does cite the fake Protocols of the Elders of Zion), and then come back and tell me that Israel is to blame for defending itself against these people, who say right out in plain in their charter that they want to destroy all Jews. Not "all Israelis" -- they don't recognize Israel. ALL JEWS. Doesn't matter where we were born, doesn't matter how long our ancestors lived there or have been in exile. Get it? ALL JEWS.

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html

As a point of example:

"The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!""

(Meanwhile, if Israel wanted to kill all the so-called Palestinians -- there are no "Palestinians" historically, admits Hamas -- the war would have been long over by now.)

The Arabs had every right to reject the state of Israel as the land was "given" to Jews by the British. Also giving civilians 15 minutes prior notice to bombing them doesn't justify "collateral damage" as an accident its a war crime. Why is it terrorism when Hamas bombs a shopping mall but "collateral damage" when the IDF bombs an apartment building. Israeli soldiers who took part in the Gaza conflict admitted to attacking civilians to follow their orders. http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il The UN and other human rights groups have a hard time doing anything because Gaza has walls built around it to prevent anyone or anything to get in and out. You can't build walls around people with gun towers and claim to be the victim. Also by killing civilians it "legitimizes" Hamas's power in the Gaza Strip and by having a blockade it keeps the people there under the rule of Hamas. Instead of focusing on creating infrastructure and economic opportunities that would help create peace Israeli politicians are obsessed with crude shitty homemade rockets which they believe are going to wipe Israel off the map. Both sides leaders talk about killing each other over sectarian reasons. Hamas leaders have stated they want to kill Jews while politicians in Israel talk about decapitating "disloyal" arabs. Lastly settlement building that involves demolishing peoples homes is a huge recruitment tool for militant groups such as Hamas and if i remember correctly it violates international law. The main places where walls where built around people was Apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany sadly the descendants of those who where walled into camps/ghettos are now building walls around others. Its a sad story of the oppressed becoming the oppressors.

Hamas is doing what zionist militant groups such as Lehi and Haganah did, trying to create a state for "their" people. Israel's foundation involved terrorism and violence against the local inhabitants of the area by foreigners. In principle they where created by a group that feels or is oppressed by another and wanting to get rid of that oppression by creating a state for themselves. The Black Panthers used violence and was considered a terrorist group by certain people. Native Americans rejected whites colonizing America and kicking them off their lands but where considered savages by the whites.

[JLK97]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ferrari-sheppard/i-traveled-to-palestine_b_4761896.htmlinteresting article. Its important to look at the conditions in which people who join militant groups live in. If you're poor, uneducated, unemployed and feel abused or marginalized joining a group such as Hamas or any militant group is appealing. This is what gangs in America do they find kids who are poor and marginalized so they give them a sense of belonging in a group in exchange for committing acts of violence or crime to fully belong.

[ThaHoward]

Israel, in my opinion was created to assuage a lot of guilty consciences. Because after WWII and the discovery of what really went on in Germany, people felt that they hadn't done enough to assist Jews quickly enough. The creation of a safe haven was a fine, noble scheme, and nobody can really be blamed for choosing an area which has cultural significance for Jews

Unfortunately the evolution of society has resulted in the same part of the world being regarded as of great importance by several major religions.

This has, sadly, resulted in the situation where, whilst the vast majority of all people simply wish to coexist peacefully, a vocal minority on all sides are using religious rhetoric as an excuse to fan the flames of intolerance.

As an aside, I know that this is a contentious topic, and people will have strong opinions, particularly if they and their families and friends have suffered as a result of other people's actions in the area.

Well just to be clear, the idea of Israel did not appear as a consequense of WWII. It was an idea presentd loong time ago. The first head of state to say it should be created was Napoleon. Then we have the Balfour decleration (i.e idea of creation of Israel was made official,y by the British state before WWII). If anything WWII did help create Israel, but that is because of the crumbling of the British Empire and their loosening grip of their colonial empire. They lost control of their Palestinian mandate.

[SexNotHaver]

I hate when people try to derail conversations about antisemitism by saying that Arabs are Semitic, too. The term antisemitism refers to Jews. Arabs being Semites doesn't make them victims of antisemitism. It's kind of like when people are talking about racism and someone says that race is a social construct or that we all come from Africa anyway. That doesn't make racism imaginary.

[Tanwen]

The British were on the receiving end of a concerted campaign of terrorism by the Zionists (the identical type of campaign they are now condemning the Palestinians for) culminating in the bombing of the St David's Hotel http://www.britishforcesinpalestine.org/attacks/kingdavid.html

Perhaps it was because of feelings of guilt, perhaps because Europe had just had 6 years of war that had left all nations depleted in every respect; they had nothing left to try to continue to be peacemakers in the middle east.

[ChineseGirl]

Palestinians think so I'm sure!

Maybe a multi-racial country should be better than an "only Jews country"

[Sally]

Palestinians think so I'm sure!

Maybe a multi-racial country should be better than an "only Jews country"

Israel is not a Jews-only country. There are Arab Christians and Arab Muslims who are citizens, and there are Arabs in the Israeli legislature. Read the facts before you make claims.

[ChineseGirl]

I think you should take information....

Unfortunately "non jews" citizens have less rights than the Jews ones in Israel.

For example, they have no right to purchase a plot of land.

And this isn't the only restriction (even marriage between Jews and non Jews are not allowed)

[YOU]

Yes. Ibn Said was more than wiling to peacefully negotiate the Jews to be relocated elsewhere, but the West ignored him. As a matter of fact, Ibn Said had quite the idea when he suggested Jews be put in Europe, since Germany, a European nation, was responsible for their displacement. But no, now we have to put up with a bunch of crazed psychos with guns trying to kill us or convert us over to Islam. All this war started when Israel invaded the Sinai Peninsula in the Suez Crisis anyway, then this sparked outrage among the Muslims and now the whole region is a mess.

Either way, we still have to help Israel, and the Middle East in general, for our own sake.

[Guest Sheka4]

I'm a staunch zionist and I oppose Israel on the grounds that it was made by Europeans. The colonization by European/American Jews of Palestine is also considered a violation of property rights in my opinion. I dislike both sides in the conflict as violence by both sides fuel the conflict more. I do believe Israel is the primary abuser in the conflict as it has killed more Palestinians (mostly civilians) while the majority of Israelis who've been killed are soldiers.

Please do not accuse me of anti semitism its an old shitty "argument". I also have lots of respect and like for Jews. I also have nothing personal against Israelis or Palestinians (except the politicians/military generals/soldiers who kill or attack civilians and fuel the conflict).

Alright. Right of the bat I have to say something about this post, as a person of Jewish descent I find this post disgusting. Why? Because the post reeks of ignorance and I'm not blaming you outright JLK97. But let's do a litle history lesson here. It's WWII, many international goverments are receiving word of the horrific crimes that Hitler is committing-the Numberg laws, Kristallnacht, and many others- Jews left and right across Europe are being stripped of their basic human rights, many Jews are unable to marry Gentils, anyone who not Jewish, either by religion or descent. Many are forced to wear the Stars of David upon their chest, they are degraded, they are called dogs and liars, theives who have stolen money, land, and anything of value from Gentils. They are called rapists and demons and this comes from the mouth of Hitler and many more others. The international community does nothing, because many are still reeling from the impacts of WWI and do not wish to fight any longer, but this does not excuse them

Let's fast forward a couple more years when the war is done, so many Jews are homeless and all of the Europen countries who were formerly under nazi control are repentent of their crimez. Many Jews decided it's time to go home, but wait many of these countries they called home no longer want them. "You can't live here. Sorry, but Jews aren't welcome in this country." So many Jews are now homeless, they have no country to call their own because many of their former birth countries have turned their backs on them. What shall they do? This this leads to the creation of Israel. A country for the Jews displaced by WWII and barred from the countries they had called homes for nearly all their lives.

"The colonization by European/American Jews of Palestine iss also considered a violation of property rights in my opinion" The land Israel is founded on was formerly a British mandate and given over to the newly declared Israeli state. This was agreed upon by many foreign superpowers at the time. Was this wrong? Sorta of, but the colonization of land by Europeans/Americans has been going on for a long time-America anyone? Or maybe all of North and South America, many parts of Africa, etc. So I don't understand why you signaled out a single country.

Now don't get me wrong I am not in anyway excusing the country of Israel for its actions, but I beleive many people are going into the wrong mindset about this. Have civilians and both sides gotten hurt? Yes. But who is making these decisions to attack the other country and refuse to participate in peace dialougs when many citizens in both country would rather not live in fear. The politicians- if you want to blame anyone, blame the politicians and not the citizens. On a final note, EVERY country and I mean EVERY country has blood on its hands, no country has clean hands not smeared with blood and as sad as that is to say, it's the truth.

[Guest Sheka4]

I think you should take information....

Unfortunately "non jews" citizens have less rights than the Jews ones in Israel.

For example, they have no right to purchase a plot of land.

And this isn't the only restriction (even marriage between Jews and non Jews are not allowed)

Saw rhis and I really want to clear this up, I don't know anything about property laws in Israel but I'm pretty certain that if you're non-Jewish you're treated with the basic amount of respect and decency that humans deserve. And this thing about having less rights, what rights do you mean by that? Human? Civil?

Anyhow, the marriage law in Israel is weird, really weird and I grew up in America most of my life. So here in America, marriages are seen as both a religious thing and non-religious as well. The religious aspect of marriage is purely ceremonial whereas you actually need to fill out forms to be recognized as married. Over in Israel you need your respective religious leader to marry you in order to be recognized as married, if both partners belong to seperate religious groups then one might have to convert, but if neither wants to then they officially can't be recognized az married. Does that suck? Yea it does, but there's a loophole to this, if both partners of different religions decide to get married then they have to get married outside of Israel with appropriate documentations of course or certain diplomatic personages can perform these marries and Israel will recognize them as entirely legal.

Yea the laws weird and I don't know when it'll ever be reformed with these old poloticians in place, but it's better to wait it put until when it can change.