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A philosophical question


Asex

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Suppose a proof showing everything is predetermined ( there is no free will ) exists.

Suppose I present this proof to you.

How would you act from now on?

Would the way you act change at all?

If it would change, would you try harder to be a good/decent person or on the contrary- you would be capable of committing the worst of crimes?

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If there was absolutely no free will, you could not "change", since your actions would be determined by a script, not yourself.

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I would have continued on my own as I would have earlier. Nothing have really changed for me, but it will be awful to think of from time to time. But again, if I am doing what "I want" and are happy with that, it doesn't really matter in the end if it is predetirmined or not.

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Lord Jade Cross

Actually there have been some neurological studies being done that try to prove that every action is predetermined and not a product of our will. But the thing is that if our brains actions are predetermined, it wouldn't really change how we live because all it would make us see is that whatever we do, were are not doing it out of free will, it wouldn't stop the action from actually being done.

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CherryAllen

If everything was in fact predetermined would I know what my future is? Because that would certainly affect the way I act or not. There'd have to be something that had to show the future so you'd know that the future was actually happening to you proving the predetermined stuff. I think it'd be cool to be the evil person that wrote the predeterminations for people.

Unless of course this predetermination is referencing Heaven and Hell? Then everything changes. But this is philosophy, that wouldn't... I guess I'd have to actually believe that the proof is real. Like, my stepfather doesn't believe that the earth is millions of years old because he's Christian (I don't know his reasoning behind it) but there's a dinosaur skeleton. Right there. Proof ten feet in front of him. Not everyone will believe proof even if it's proof

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We spend our entire lives developing our personal paradigm. Everything that you learn, that you know, that you've felt (and so on) affects how you'll react to future circumstance even if you don't realize it. Everything that has happened in your life up to this moment, even if with severe subtlety, will either make you agreeable or rebellious to the idea of illusive will and predetermination.

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Lord Jade Cross

Predetermined actions are not the same as foreshadowing. You would do them in the moment rather than saying "in X time I will do this and that". The studies are only trying to show that a mete second or so before you take an action, your brain has already determined it for you.

For instance is you get to chose between petting a dog or a cat, which will you chose? Normally people would say "well the dog/cat of course" but before you have even voiced it, the brain has already chosen for yo, hence the theory that free will is non existent. Well that's an oversimplified example. Neurological theories are much harder to grasp fully.

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Perissodactyla

I recommend reading: 'Free Will' by Sam Harris,

http://www.amazon.com/Free-Will-Sam-Harris/dp/1451683405

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sam+harris+free+will

"Sam Harris argues that this truth about the human mind does not undermine morality or diminish the importance of social and political freedom, but it can and should change the way we think about some of the most important questions in life."

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CherryAllen

That kind of predetermination? Not "you're destined to be a hero/villain and there's nothing you can do to stray from the course" predetermination? Because in that case whatever you did try and change you couldn't because it'd be set in stone and you'd end up as the hero/villain you were supposed to be no matter what. So you'd think you're changing but it's all just adding up to what you're predetermined to be, therefore no true free will

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I, personally, am of the opinion that everything is predetermined. In the way that, in the moment the universe was formed everything was already done and decided. It doesn't affect me much or the way I do things, it's just an opinion and/or belief I have because I see it as the most logical one. The thing is, there's a difference between perceiving something intellectually and feeling it. For example, one might be of the philosophical belief that life has no purpose, but that doesn't mean that they *feel* like life has no purpose.

Similarly, just because a person is faced with evidence that proves how everything is predetermined that doesn't mean that they will *feel* like they have no free will. Only realising it, will not automatically have an impact on someone's actions.

But I suppose that if I felt like we were completely devoid of free will, I wouldn't do anything. I would probably only lie in my bed asking myself what the point of going on is. Good thing that it's only a question of philosophy.

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Suppose a proof showing everything is predetermined ( there is no free will ) exists.

Suppose I present this proof to you.

How would you act from now on?

Would the way you act change at all?

If it would change, would you try harder to be a good/decent person or on the contrary- you would be capable of committing the worst of crimes?

Nothing would change. Change wouldn't even exist in the sense it can be brought about. It would happen but not because it was brought about, but because it was going to happen anyway.

It doesn't matter how you react, you always were or were not going to react. Acting to try and defy would still be part of the predetermination, as it'd still be within the confines. You can't escape this paradigm.

The fact you're asking 'how'd you react?' in response is senseless. It's a given and known quantity. How you handle the information would merely be a given.

End of the day, it's just something which works out to support the argument that life is fundamentally without any meaning, it just is; Nihilism.

Nothing changes. It's already determined how things react.

Edit: Added link to XKCD strip on Nihilism. I couldn't help myself.

Unless of course this predetermination is referencing Heaven and Hell? Then everything changes.

Does it? Everyone would just be cogs in a system to go to their places. Some people would be made to go to hell, others made to go to heaven.

Much like the Angels, where one would fall into the grand plan of 'God' would simply be an expression of God's intent. Lucifer didn't rebel because he wanted to on his own merits, he rebels because God created him to fall.

And so nothing changes. Life carries on as it always has, because you can't change it. You can fight, you can deny, but it is still already ordained you would. You can give up, and it is already ordained you would.

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allrightalready

yeah what Blakrana said - if everything is predetermined then i cannot change anything

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Phantasmal Fingers

If I have preferences (tea rather than coffee, for example) I will be impelled to act on them. I will "choose" tea. I might think this is really a choice but if my preference for tea is very strong then coffee will not be an option and tea will not really be a choice. If I've had enough tea and someone offers me tea or coffee then I will act on my preference not to have either. I will, as it were, choose nothing. To choose not to choose is thus not a choice.

If you take proof out of an argument then the argument becomes circular. It may coincidentally be right but in and of itself a circular argument does not establish the claim it makes. If we don't take the proof out of the argument then in order to know whether or not we accept the proof as proof we need to articulate to ourselves what the criteria for proof is. There is always some sort of criteria. Does a general concensus (there once was one that the Earth was flat) necessarily carry any weight? Is there any such thing as valid third party testimony? What about the evidence of ones own eyes? A mirage, for example... Is circumstantial evidence (so called) really evidence? If there is also what appears to be prima facie evidence is circumstantial evidence still evidence? Etc, etc, etc.

If there is a criteria for proof then there must be a criteria for the criteria, and of course a criteria for the criteria for the criteria. And so on ad infinitum. So any argument based on proof leads straight to an infinite regression. Is an infinite regression a problem? If you see it as a problem (I don't as it happens) is the problem the regressing or the infinitude? To me an infinite regression should regress infinitely and therefore the fact that it does so is entirely appropriate. But if nothing ever stops regressing (or progressing, if you see it that way) then what is what?

Or to put it another way, what is is what?

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Remember the Egan's law: "it all adds up to normality". I don't think that in theory a zero-knowledge proof should affect what a rational person does. But that's in theory.

If you show me a proof, this means you know some amazing new physics. And that's way more important that some silly philosophical arguments. It all depends on what that new physics is. If it's something that doesn't let you take over the world or at least make tons of money, I'll just politely ask you about it and maybe we'll try to improve it together. If it's something powerful, I might hire someone to "ask" you about your secrets before you conquer the world. But if it's so powerful that you already conquered the world without anyone noticing, then I might try to somehow become second in command after the almighty lord Asex. I hope this answers your questions. :P

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I already don't believe in the concept of free will. I'd be happy to know that I was right all along, and keep living my life as I did before - playing out the script dealt to me by fate, one line at a time, with no chance to ever deviate from it. ^_^

On the other hand, if someone were to objectively prove to me that free will does exist... I would probably kill myself. Not only would I really not want to live in such a world, but my entire worldview would be shattered to its very core, making me feel utterly, totally lost.

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TooOldForThis

Also already a determinist. Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter whether we have free will or everything is determined. The universe is unimaginably complex, so the sheer number of variables one would have to take into account to accurately predict tI he future is so great that we could never hope to do so. Thus, since we don't know the future, we might as well have free will.

While it doesn't matter on a practical level whether the future is fixed or not, I know that a lot of people react very strongly, in one way or another, to the concept of a determined universe. Some people feel horribly depressed and hopeless at the thought that each one of their actions was always going to be what it was. Others are repulsed by the idea of a universe without rules, operating on choice and nothing else. So since it doesn't really matter how the universe does operate, in general it's probably best to go on believing it works the way you want it to work. Personally, I don't have an emotional reaction to free will or determinism, and so go with determinism because it's probably the case.

But I'm also a fallibilist, so don't take anything I say seriously :P

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Well, I already believe that everything is predetermined, so I guess I'd continue to live as quietly resigned to everything that is to come, because there's nothing I can do about it.

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If there was absolutely no free will, you could not "change", since your actions would be determined by a script, not yourself.

The script changes you then.Read my question "how would the script change you in case you realize everything is predetermined?"

...Nothing would change. Change wouldn't even exist in the sense it can be brought about. It would happen but not because it was brought about, but because it was going to happen anyway.

It doesn't matter how you react, you always were or were not going to react. Acting to try and defy would still be part of the predetermination, as it'd still be within the confines. You can't escape this paradigm.

The fact you're asking 'how'd you react?' in response is senseless. It's a given and known quantity. How you handle the information would merely be a given.

End of the day, it's just something which works out to support the argument that life is fundamentally without any meaning, it just is; Nihilism.

Nothing changes. It's already determined how things react.

Edit: Added link to XKCD strip on Nihilism. I couldn't help myself.

Unless of course this predetermination is referencing Heaven and Hell? Then everything changes.

Does it? Everyone would just be cogs in a system to go to their places. Some people would be made to go to hell, others made to go to heaven.

Much like the Angels, where one would fall into the grand plan of 'God' would simply be an expression of God's intent. Lucifer didn't rebel because he wanted to on his own merits, he rebels because God created him to fall.

And so nothing changes. Life carries on as it always has, because you can't change it. You can fight, you can deny, but it is still already ordained you would. You can give up, and it is already ordained you would.

yeah what Blakrana said - if everything is predetermined then i cannot change anything

Blakrana and allrightalready I mean not changing the course of fate but changing in the course of fate.

I agree with your remarks but I don't see them contradicting me.

...On the other hand, if someone were to objectively prove to me that free will does exist... I would probably kill myself. Not only would I really not want to live in such a world, but my entire worldview would be shattered to its very core, making me feel utterly, totally lost.

Please tell me what makes you feel like this!

Why you would probably kill yourself?

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...On the other hand, if someone were to objectively prove to me that free will does exist... I would probably kill myself. Not only would I really not want to live in such a world, but my entire worldview would be shattered to its very core, making me feel utterly, totally lost.

Please tell me what makes you feel like this!

Why you would probably kill yourself?

It would derail this thread too much if I explained it in detail. Let's just say, determinism is a pretty central aspect of my worldview, and said worldview is what keeps me alive. If it were objectively proven wrong, I'd lose so much hope, and would be forced to consider this universe such an atrocious hellhole that death would just be infinitely preferrable over suffering physical existence any longer. To me, only a strictly deterministic universe is worth living in, the alternative is just too damn depressing to consider.

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I go out and buy the following:

Lays potato chips, original flavor, family size

if I am facing the choice of whether or not I buy Lays potato chips, the outcome will either be -i do- or -i don't- and it becomes determined when I "choose".. but there is no way of really knowing if I am making a choice, or delaying my only response. If free will is officially thrown under the wagon, I would buy the bag of chips and lick every last grain of salt out from the corners of the bag....or I wouldn't? That's where ideologies of religion come in. When you're not responsible for your actions, who is--nature, god?

What's a decent person, anyway? Helping old folks cross the street? Donating to charity? Community service? Recycling?

There'd be a mess of people who would have the idea that they were helping the "predetermined", as if it were a living being, by doing whatever someone else told them was determined (no one would know, right, so they'd have to rely on the popular opinion). And others would try and rebel against it by setting idk, trash cans on fire, but both people would technically be following their predetermined fate. And at any time, those two kinds of people could switch places, or join the other, and they would still be on track no matter if they turned everything to Hell or Heaven.

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For whatever reason, I imagine this "proof" you describe as being a literal "Book of Fate"; something that dictates all actions and reactions in the cosmos, most notably in the future. But who is it that you imagine wrote it? Because if there's a personal slant to it, that would be more likely to elicit emotional reactions to the information that would have you try to disprove it (not that you would necessarily be more likely to succeed).

If the book wasn't written by anyone in particular, just being an unbiased, mechanical piece of instruction, it would probably just say what you did without any context. Later, when it comes to fruition is when you would realize why it was the only choice you would make in the scenario, especially since the "best solution" was already implanted into your head by the book.

Another possibility with this same kind of dictation would be that the book would fully explain ALL of your reasoning and make the necessary compensations thereon for you having read the book. Such would be to the effect of: "Asex chose so-and-so because they believe X to be the best method because Y (see page ZZZZZZZZZZZZ)...." and "Asex, trying to disprove the Book of Fate because of personality trait developed during the events of Y, but affected by A because of their belief in B developed by C, ultimately chooses so-and-so...". Each of the variables could result in their own explanation in how they act upon each other, because those are technically neurological actions deserving apology.

As this book is, for all intents and purposes, magic, the practical logistics are not wholly relevant.

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yeah what Blakrana said - if everything is predetermined then i cannot change anything

Blakrana and allrightalready I mean not changing the course of fate but changing in the course of fate.

I agree with your remarks but I don't see them contradicting me.

Not really challenging anything, more asking why it matters at all.

Maybe its fate, maybe its will, whatever the event is we're alive. Why not just make the most of it, you know?

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allrightalready

yeah what Blakrana said - if everything is predetermined then i cannot change anything

Blakrana and allrightalready I mean not changing the course of fate but changing in the course of fate.

I agree with your remarks but I don't see them contradicting me.

Not really challenging anything, more asking why it matters at all.

Maybe its fate, maybe its will, whatever the event is we're alive. Why not just make the most of it, you know?

if i thought i was not able to affect any outcome in my life (especially considering just how awful it has been - that is VERY modified language in describing it) i would descend into the absolute depths of depression (but of course should i not have a choice in anything then "god" or whatever is the most heinous being ever to have existed and wants my suffering since it created it specifically so i would suffer)

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Suppose a proof showing everything is predetermined ( there is no free will ) exists.

Suppose I present this proof to you.

How would you act from now on?

Would the way you act change at all?

If it would change, would you try harder to be a good/decent person or on the contrary- you would be capable of committing the worst of crimes?

I am not a fan of free will --- that is, I don't consider it a necessary requisite for my religious (Christian) or philosophical (amorphous wackoland) convinctions, and think people far too readily accept it for no well-examined reason (simply as a culturally pervasive "fact"). On the other hand, I'm highly skeptical that "free will" is a matter amenable to absolute proof either for or against. Presented with such a proof, my actions would involve picking apart the proof to find where it was flawed. I would find such flaws (regardless of their nonexistence; I'm quite confident in my abilities to delude myself), and then proceed much as before (with a smidgen more hubris at my ability to demolish impenetrable proofs). Could I do otherwise?

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Chandler Klebs

Suppose a proof showing everything is predetermined ( there is no free will ) exists.

Suppose I present this proof to you.

How would you act from now on?

Would the way you act change at all?

If it would change, would you try harder to be a good/decent person or on the contrary- you would be capable of committing the worst of crimes?

I recently learned that in fact it all comes down to prior causes over which I had no choice in. I am the person who I am due to biology and environment. So in reality it doesn't change that much of how I act. I still like the same foods, video games, etc. I just understand that I technically never had a choice in who I became.

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If I had literally no choice and everything was predetermined, I would likely kill myself, in some vain defiance against it.

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chair jockey

I'm not convinced there can be definitive proof of anything in philosophy, and certainly not in science. If I found it personally impossible to challenge the assertion that I am, in Nietzsche's words, "a piece of fate," then I'd try to relax 100% and just go where the flow of life took me, not feeling responsible for anything, and certainly not holding other people responsible for anything they do. I'd remain in favor of confining some people for the sake of protecting other people from them, but would completely ignore the shallow moralizing rhetoric of the blameoids that currently dominates public speech.

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I'm not convinced there can be definitive proof of anything in philosophy, and certainly not in science. If I found it personally impossible to challenge the assertion that I am, in Nietzsche's words, "a piece of fate," then I'd try to relax 100% and just go where the flow of life took me, not feeling responsible for anything, and certainly not holding other people responsible for anything they do. I'd remain in favor of confining some people for the sake of protecting other people from them, but would completely ignore the shallow moralizing rhetoric of the blameoids that currently dominates public speech.

Welcome to my world. :D

Old habits are hard to break, so I can't say I'm 100% free from the shackles of morality yet (and being human, will probably fail at the ideal of pure amorality as I fail at every other pure ideal), but I've been on a nice enough path towards that ideal for quite a number of years. ^_^

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