Kalidas Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 So if they don't really enjoy sex with men, then why are they doing it? Why not just masturbate to the thought of women? Seems so much less of a hassle, especially when you take into account the homophobic prejudices in society making the latter far more socially acceptable. I really think that "prison makes many men find out they've really been bisexual all along" is a highly problematic stance, one that conflicts with AVEN's stance that behavior doesn't inform orientation. But thats the thing, to sexualy attracted people it IS that good. I just dont get it. No, to people who desire it it is that good. I don't see what "attraction" has to do with it. Just because YOU dont see it doesnt mean that it isnt true. That is an issue of cognitive dissonence. Just because your personal understanding of something can't comprehend an idea it doesn't mean that idea is untrue. That is a logical fallacy. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I think you're doing men (and for that matter, women) in prison a huge disservice if you chalk all of the sex happening behind bars down to a form of rape/power structure. Even though prison rape is and has always been a tremendous problem in all such institutions, it is completely off to generalize it that way. If it were true, prisons would be better off and more humane to enforce a strict celibacy policy among all inmates (by chemical castration and/or a strict one to a cell isolation policy, if need be). Link to post Share on other sites
Rising Sun Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Come on Mysticus, you won't say that they enjoyed having sex with men as much as they enjoy having sex with women (especially if they still largely prefer women after) ? It would mean that a gay person would naturally enjoy having sex with a person of the opposite gender as much as with a person of the same gender just because they want to have sex. If sexual desire were the only real thing that mattered, everybody could have sex with absolutely any human being and absolutely LOVE it. There would be no preference at all. But the truth is that most people don't really enjoy having sex with somebody who doesn't turn them on (somebody they aren't sexually attracted to). There are some exceptions, yes, but exceptions don't create a rule. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Just because YOU dont see it doesnt mean that it isnt true. That is an issue of cognitive dissonence. Just because your personal understanding of something can't comprehend an idea it doesn't mean that idea is untrue. That is a logical fallacy. No, the fallacy is your assumption that it's just me. It's most Germans (and Dutch... and whoever else, I dunno), actually. The top of the site banner is, if anything, only true for American asexuals. Thus, it would stand to reason that sexual orientations are societal constructs, if they function in culturally different and hard to translate ways. Which brings us back to the well-documented baffling failure of reeducating gays to straightness. Please explain why you think conversion therapy does not work. Link to post Share on other sites
Kalidas Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 Come on Mysticus, you won't say that they enjoyed having sex with men as much as they enjoy having sex with women (especially if they still largely prefer women after) ? It would mean that a gay person would naturally enjoy having sex with a person of the opposite gender as much as with a person of the same gender just because they want to have sex. If sexual desire were the only real thing that mattered, everybody could have sex with absolutely any human being and absolutely LOVE it. There would be no preference at all. But the truth is that most people don't really enjoy having sex with somebody who doesn't turn them on (somebody they aren't sexually attracted to). There are some exceptions, yes, but exceptions don't create a rule. On that note. I bet if a men gave a straight man falacio he would still orgasm. You cant control your bodily reactions. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 If sexual desire were the only real thing that mattered, everybody could have sex with absolutely any human being and absolutely LOVE it. There would be no preference at all. I disagree with this leap of (il)logic, but it reinforces my notion that you think "sexual attraction" is another way of saying "correspondence to the partner preference ideal". And that brings me back to what I've often said it before: The only thing that differentiates aces from pans is desire for partnered sex. They have the same partner preference ("If everyone is super, then nobody is", right? ;)) That's one of the reasons why "attraction" definitions simply don't work. Ace and pan should be diametrical opposites, not pretty much the same thing except for something that doesn't have to do with what attractionists call "orientation". Link to post Share on other sites
Kalidas Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 Just because YOU dont see it doesnt mean that it isnt true. That is an issue of cognitive dissonence. Just because your personal understanding of something can't comprehend an idea it doesn't mean that idea is untrue. That is a logical fallacy. No, the fallacy is your assumption that it's just me. It's most Germans (and Dutch... and whoever else, I dunno), actually. The top of the site banner is, if anything, only true for American asexuals.Thus, it would stand to reason that sexual orientations are societal constructs, if they function in culturally different and hard to translate ways. Which brings us back to the well-documented baffling failure of reeducating gays to straightness. Please explain why you think conversion therapy does not work. You said something is wrong because you cant comprhend it being right, that IS a logical fallacy. Im not argueing with Germany, Im arguing with you. But if anyone else wants to say that they cant comprehend an idea so thus said idea cant be true I will say the same thing. I cant comprehend that sex can be fun without love but others tell me it is and I take them at face value.Why does conversion therepy not work? Well its kind of impossible to convert a genetic disposition. Link to post Share on other sites
ithaca Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 If they don't desire sex with men, they simply are not homosexual, and are better off not calling themselves "gay" because that would obviously lead to them getting mistaken for homosexuals in the outside world. They're either heterosexual (if they desire sex with women) or ace (if they don't desire sex with either men or women). I can't help but wonder what they are trying to gain from the pretense of "playing gay", and I'd wholeheartedly encourage them to get over it and stop it already. It's offensive to actually real gay people. Being homosexual isn't the only reason to identify as "gay". Plenty of homoromantic people identify as gay, and their (our) identity isn't any less valid just because you say that they (we) shouldn't identify as gay unless they (we) desire sex. Speaking of "playing gay" and "being offensive to actually real gay people" is plain insulting on your behalf, especially because you HAVE included asexual people in your post. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 On that note. I bet if a men gave a straight man falacio he would still orgasm. You cant control your bodily reactions. Absolutely. That clearly conflicts with what RS said, though. Only a small minority - namely, sex-repulsed people - would find that orgasm not enjoyable. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Being homosexual isn't the only reason to identify as "gay". Plenty of homoromantic people identify as gay, and their (our) identity isn't any less valid just because you say that they (we) shouldn't identify as gay unless they (we) desire sex. Speaking of "playing gay" and "being offensive to actually real gay people" is plain insulting on your behalf, especially because you HAVE included asexual people in your post. How many people - outside of AVEN - do you know who hear the word "gay" and don't immediately think "homosexual"? And yes, I think homoromantic/homosensual aces are probably better off not calling themselves gay in public. They're making things more difficult for both homosexual and asexual people. If you feel insulted by what I said, well, I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's your problem, not mine. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Why does conversion therepy not work? Well its kind of impossible to convert a genetic disposition. How can something be both a genetic disposition and a cultural/societal construct at the same time? Is it in my genes to be culturally German? Dangerous, dangerous grounds here. I cant comprehend that sex can be fun without love but others tell me it is and I take them at face value. Erm... what's love got to do with it? (Sorry if you now have Tina Turner stuck in your head.) Did you mean that as an entirely different example out of nowhere? Seems a bit nonsequitur for me... Link to post Share on other sites
ithaca Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Being homosexual isn't the only reason to identify as "gay". Plenty of homoromantic people identify as gay, and their (our) identity isn't any less valid just because you say that they (we) shouldn't identify as gay unless they (we) desire sex. Speaking of "playing gay" and "being offensive to actually real gay people" is plain insulting on your behalf, especially because you HAVE included asexual people in your post. How many people - outside of AVEN - do you know who hear the word "gay" and don't immediately think "homosexual"? And yes, I think homoromantic/homosensual aces are probably better off not calling themselves gay in public. They're making things more difficult for both homosexual and asexual people. If you feel insulted by what I said, well, I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's your problem, not mine. I'm sorry, but how many people do you know - outside of AVEN - who will think of "oh I guess this person wants to bang that and that other friend of mine maybe, let's carefully think of how they have sex and how innate their desire for sex with the same gender is" when someone comes out as gay rather than "oh ok, they date the same gender" if they think anything at all? And no, on AVEN if you're insulting a group of people it's your responsibility as a member to be more careful, not the people you're insulting not to feel insulted. Link to post Share on other sites
Rising Sun Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 If sexual desire were the only real thing that mattered, everybody could have sex with absolutely any human being and absolutely LOVE it. There would be no preference at all. I disagree with this leap of (il)logic, but it reinforces my notion that you think "sexual attraction" is another way of saying "correspondence to the partner preference ideal".And that brings me back to what I've often said it before: The only thing that differentiates aces from pans is desire for partnered sex. They have the same partner preference ("If everyone is super, then nobody is", right? ;)) That's one of the reasons why "attraction" definitions simply don't work. Ace and pan should be diametrical opposites, not pretty much the same thing except for something that doesn't have to do with what attractionists call "orientation". No, because somebody can have an innate desire for partnered sex ("I never had sex but I want it, I need it in my life sooner or later") but never find the person who will turn them on, so they'll try having sex with random people and feel miserable because they don't enjoy sex to the extent they imagined, because they felt sexual desire but never felt sexual attraction. Just because YOU dont see it doesnt mean that it isnt true. That is an issue of cognitive dissonence. Just because your personal understanding of something can't comprehend an idea it doesn't mean that idea is untrue. That is a logical fallacy. No, the fallacy is your assumption that it's just me. It's most Germans (and Dutch... and whoever else, I dunno), actually. The top of the site banner is, if anything, only true for American asexuals. Wrong. Don't use an argument if you don't have evidence for it. The French AVEN websites defines asexuality as "Asexuel(le) : une personne qui ne ressent pas d'attirance sexuelle pour les autres." ("Asexual : a person who doesn't feel sexual attraction for others.") I just copied and pasted it, and no one ever suggested to change this definition on the French AVEN. Link to post Share on other sites
Kalidas Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 Being homosexual isn't the only reason to identify as "gay". Plenty of homoromantic people identify as gay, and their (our) identity isn't any less valid just because you say that they (we) shouldn't identify as gay unless they (we) desire sex. Speaking of "playing gay" and "being offensive to actually real gay people" is plain insulting on your behalf, especially because you HAVE included asexual people in your post. How many people - outside of AVEN - do you know who hear the word "gay" and don't immediately think "homosexual"? And yes, I think homoromantic/homosensual aces are probably better off not calling themselves gay in public. They're making things more difficult for both homosexual and asexual people.If you feel insulted by what I said, well, I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's your problem, not mine. Two problems with that. First off its not your call. I mentioned this in the other thread and I will again. I dont give a f@#k what outsiders think. I will go by what makes me feel comtorable. If other people cant understand it that is THEIR problem. And to not be true to yourself to please others is just sad.A lion cares not for the opinions of sheep.Just because you dont care about other people being offended does not mean they cant be offended. Say what you mean and mean what you say, but dont say it mean. Link to post Share on other sites
Kalidas Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 Why does conversion therepy not work? Well its kind of impossible to convert a genetic disposition. How can something be both a genetic disposition and a cultural/societal construct at the same time? Is it in my genes to be culturally German? Dangerous, dangerous grounds here. I cant comprehend that sex can be fun without love but others tell me it is and I take them at face value. Erm... what's love got to do with it? (Sorry if you now have Tina Turner stuck in your head.)Did you mean that as an entirely different example out of nowhere? Seems a bit nonsequitur for me... No you asked about homosexual conversion therepy and why I think it cant work. Because genes. Oh yes that was a totally different example. Sorry for the confusion. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I'm sorry, but how many people do you know - outside of AVEN - who will think of "oh I guess this person wants to bang that and that other friend of mine maybe, let's carefully think of how they have sex and how innate their desire for sex with the same gender is" when someone comes out as gay rather than "oh ok, they date the same gender" if they think anything at all? Huh? And no, on AVEN if you're insulting a group of people it's your responsibility as a member to be more careful, not the people you're insulting not to feel insulted. You are, of course, free to report my post. I think there's an excellent chance for it to either end in no moderative sanction at all, or in a successful appeal on my side to be (which of course, I would be making, as I didn't insult anyone). Take a chill pill, ith. No, because somebody can have an innate desire for partnered sex ("I never had sex but I want it, I need it in my life sooner or later") but never find the person who will turn them on, so they'll try having sex with random people and feel miserable because they don't enjoy it to the extent they imagined. I thought asexuals aren't people who just haven't found the right partner yet? Said phrase, however, exactly describes the kind of person you talk about here. Wrong. Don't use an argument if you don't have evidence for it. The French AVEN websites defines asexuality as "Asexuel(le) : une personne qui ne ressent pas d'attirance sexuelle pour les autres." ("Asexual : a person who doesn't feel sexual attraction for others.") I just copied and pasted it, and no one ever suggested to change this definition on the French AVEN. Homepage of AVEN.de Asexualität - kein Verlangen nach sexueller Interaktion. (Asexuality = no urge/desire for sexual interaction) Attempts at changing this into an "attraction" definition have consistently failed, because the idea that asexuality were based on "sexual attraction" is a small minority opinion. BTW, German Wikipedia, too, only mentions "Anziehung/attraction" in describing asexuality, not in any other orientation. Defining asexuality by attraction makes it look like not an actual orientation, because all others are defined differently. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Just because you dont care about other people being offended does not mean they cant be offended. Say what you mean and mean what you say, but dont say it mean. I didn't say anything mean. I just refuse to censor myself to prevent oversensitive reactions. I repeat with sincereity: ith is free to report me, but I don't think she'll meet success in that way if she tries, as I'm very certain that there was no ToS breach. No you asked about homosexual conversion therepy and why I think it cant work. Because genes. Which leaves us, again, with the question of how can orientations work different in Germans and Americans. Are we genetically the same species, or aren't we? Oh yes that was a totally different example. Sorry for the confusion. Okies, thanks for the clearup. :) Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Temporarily locking this thread. Let's all remember to be respectful of each other's identities.Kisa the Cat, Administrator Link to post Share on other sites
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