Ponderings about underage dating

[diconstruction]

This is a purely hypothetical thought that crossed my mind in traffic the other day. Wanted to get some opinions. So for the sake of being concrete, let's consider two different couples. One contains two sexual individuals, ages 15 and 25, in a sexual relationship. The other contains two asexual individuals, also ages 15 and 25, in a nonsexual relationship.

Regardless of legality, is the first couple any more morally unacceptable than the second? Why or why not?

[Null_and_Void]

Well I think the age of consent should be 14 or 15 anyway, so I don't give a crap about either one. I don't care about age gaps, though. Sex or not,15 and 15 is the same to me as 15 and 50.

[nerdperson777]

It's just that idea from older people that teenagers aren't experienced so they shouldn't be doing anything. But there can be some responsible teenagers who know when it's right. At this point, I doubt any adult would approve of a 15 year old in a sexual relationship just because of age. Sometimes it's just a case by case thing. Teenagers tend to be rambunctious with the excess of hormones. I was not one of them though. I went through that without feeling anything, but probably just because I happened to be aro ace.

I can't really answer whether one is more acceptable than the other because I'd probably join the adults who think that a teenager should not be in a sexual relationship. But as long as they're responsible, it shouldn't really matter.

[OttRInvy]

I, personally, wouldn't feel either is very acceptable. Age gaps with half of the couple being underage trouble me solely based on consent and since a sexual or nonsexual relationship can both have issues with consent, I'm not comfortable supporting either, really.

I would say that the sexual relationship has more consequences involving risk of pregnancy (assuming the couple can produce a child), STIs, or sexual coercion.

[Tarfeather]

Hah, I once read some old old chatlogs from when I was 14-15. I basically was the same person then I am now, just slightly less experienced. But mental faculties were pretty much fully developed and all. So assuming someone that age can't be as responsible about their body as an older person is just silly. Yeah, it may often be the case, but I believe that would mostly be a result of bad parenting and a bad social environment, and these people would probably still struggle even at age 20 or older.

As for your question, I don't have a moral problem with either. I don't have a moral problem with anything where all the feeling beings affected are okay with it, for that matter. As long as they both want the relationship, that's their choice, really.

[Melancholy Dolly]

Speaking as a teenager here.

Honestly, I do think it's a case by case situation that really depends on the maturity of the individuals involved. Like others have said, teenagers mature at different rates and some develop quicker than others.

I personally know a girl my age who is in a relationship with someone in his 20s and their relationship seems pretty stable (both parties responsible and take precautions and he understands her limits and boundaries) but then there are other people I know that I really don't think should be in romantic/sexual relationships at all. It depends on all kinds of factors.

Also, I feel more comfortable morally with the latter couple purely because there would hypothetically be less pressure to perform (sexually) in the relationship, there are less consequences etc. and the idea of a legal adult involved in a sexual relationship with a minor is always going to creep me out, regardless.

[allrightalready]

neither is acceptable. the problem is the power differential and therefore potential for abuse

[dandelionfluff]

As someone who is 25, I cannot for life of me imagine being with a 15 year old. A 15 year old is a child. The way I think of it is this: no matter how mature a teen thinks they are, 9 times out of 10 they can't handle adult responsibility. Heck even at my age I still have a way to go! I go to uni with a bunch of 20 year olds and even they seem like a bunch of kids to me. I wouldn't even want to date a 20 year old. At my age I'm on my own, pay for my own life expenses, go wherever whenever I please, for the most part. A 15 year old? They still provably have a curfew and have to ask their parents to go to the mall LOL. No thanks. I just don't understand why an adult would date a child. To me, it doesn't matter if the relationship is sexual or not.

[Guest]

As someone who is 25, I cannot for life of me imagine being with a 15 year old. A 15 year old is a child. The way I think of it is this: no matter how mature a teen thinks they are, 9 times out of 10 they can't handle adult responsibility. Heck even at my age I still have a way to go! I go to uni with a bunch of 20 year olds and even they seem like a bunch of kids to me. I wouldn't even want to date a 20 year old. At my age I'm on my own, pay for my own life expenses, go wherever whenever I please, for the most part. A 15 year old? They still provably have a curfew and have to ask their parents to go to the mall LOL. No thanks. I just don't understand why an adult would date a child. To me, it doesn't matter if the relationship is sexual or not.

Eh. Some 15-16 year olds are emancipated and paying their own bills, living alone and working hard just to make ends meet just like any adult. So, they can't really mesh well with their peers and prefer the company of older people who are at the same place in life. I can see why someone at that age may date an adult if they have more in common with them than the other teenagers.

I have no issue with either age gap, sexual or non-sexual. And honestly, I find the consent laws a bit hypocritical. It's OK to be 16 with 25 if you're married. It's not OK if you're just dating. What? Why does that piece of paper mean that much? I mean, geez, I was reading a marriage pamphlet at the court house while my parents were divorcing and it had exceptions/rules so a TWELVE year old could get married (but only if they were pregnant...).

When I was 15, I dated an 18 year old. And the poor guy had to be scared of being reported as a sex offender, cause I was "underage". It was obnoxious. And I hated the laws then and now. He was my best friend, totally respectful and I absolutely COULD consent to do whatever I pleased with him, there was no "rape" about it regardless of what the law wanted to say (there was no reasonable age gap exclusion where we were, underage was just underage).

Yes, some age limit is required to protect kids. A 9 year old should not be having sex with an adult, it can actually physically harm them. And, in some cases, the older "kids" need protection too. it really needs to not be a blanket thing though, where the "offender" gets put on a sex offenders list for LIFE, the situation should be looked at and not just the birth years.

My cousin married a 25 year old when she turned 16... they've been married for over 20 years and are happy. I would never, ever condemn him as a "predator" for falling for a troubled, living away from home "kid" and them not waiting the absolutely useless two extra years until she reached some arbitrary age of "adulthood", when they could be together and happy as they were.

[dandelionfluff]

As someone who is 25, I cannot for life of me imagine being with a 15 year old. A 15 year old is a child. The way I think of it is this: no matter how mature a teen thinks they are, 9 times out of 10 they can't handle adult responsibility. Heck even at my age I still have a way to go! I go to uni with a bunch of 20 year olds and even they seem like a bunch of kids to me. I wouldn't even want to date a 20 year old. At my age I'm on my own, pay for my own life expenses, go wherever whenever I please, for the most part. A 15 year old? They still provably have a curfew and have to ask their parents to go to the mall LOL. No thanks. I just don't understand why an adult would date a child. To me, it doesn't matter if the relationship is sexual or not.

Eh. Some 15-16 year olds are emancipated and paying their own bills, living alone and working hard just to make ends meet just like any adult. So, they can't really mesh well with their peers and prefer the company of older people who are at the same place in life. I can see why someone at that age may date an adult if they have more in common with them than the other teenagers.

I know that. But let's face it they're the exception not the rule.

When I was 20 I dated an 18 year old. We got along just fine, but he still wasn't "allowed" to have girls over, he still had to ask his mom when to go places, still had to ask her to pick him up and drop him off, he had no job so really no money, and he still basically lived under his parents' rule. While I was independent, living on my own, working, going to school and paying for all my own crap (I still was broke but that's a different story LOL). So while he was a splendid guy I couldn't deal with that aspect.

At 25 (started at 24) I dated someone who is 32. Amazingly we were basically on the same level maturity wise. He was obviously independent at that age, financially supporting himself, had his own place etc. but I barely felt like there was an age difference. Also, at 21-ish I dated someone who was 28. Again, in that case I barely felt the age difference. He was fairly financially independent but still lived at home. But he was one of those youthful types. I know all too well myself that age doesn't necessarily equate maturity, but I have been around too many teenagers to even think of dating one. I know 20 year olds who have barely grown up. I guess it just depends on a case by case basis. But on a whole, I wouldn't do it myself and I don't 100% support it. But I do believe if both parties are consenting, there is no manipulation going on I guess it could work out. But I personally would never think of a 15 year old, who basically is what, a freshman or sophmore in high school? as a potentional romantic partner.

[Torquil]

I've always thought that age of consent laws are made for the peace of mind of parents, and not in regards to the rights of the people involved in the relationship. It's a complicated issue though.

[Guest]

As someone who is 25, I cannot for life of me imagine being with a 15 year old. A 15 year old is a child. The way I think of it is this: no matter how mature a teen thinks they are, 9 times out of 10 they can't handle adult responsibility. Heck even at my age I still have a way to go! I go to uni with a bunch of 20 year olds and even they seem like a bunch of kids to me. I wouldn't even want to date a 20 year old. At my age I'm on my own, pay for my own life expenses, go wherever whenever I please, for the most part. A 15 year old? They still provably have a curfew and have to ask their parents to go to the mall LOL. No thanks. I just don't understand why an adult would date a child. To me, it doesn't matter if the relationship is sexual or not.

Eh. Some 15-16 year olds are emancipated and paying their own bills, living alone and working hard just to make ends meet just like any adult. So, they can't really mesh well with their peers and prefer the company of older people who are at the same place in life. I can see why someone at that age may date an adult if they have more in common with them than the other teenagers.

I know that. But let's face it they're the exception not the rule.

When I was 20 I dated an 18 year old. We got along just fine, but he still wasn't "allowed" to have girls over, he still had to ask his mom when to go places, still had to ask her to pick him up and drop him off, he had no job so really no money, and he still basically lived under his parents' rule. While I was independent, living on my own, working, going to school and paying for all my own crap (I still was broke but that's a different story LOL). So while he was a splendid guy I couldn't deal with that aspect.

At 25 (started at 24) I dated someone who is 32. Amazingly we were basically on the same level maturity wise. He was obviously independent at that age, financially supporting himself, had his own place etc. but I barely felt like there was an age difference. Also, at 21-ish I dated someone who was 28. Again, in that case I barely felt the age difference. He was fairly financially independent but still lived at home. But he was one of those youthful types. I know all too well myself that age doesn't necessarily equate maturity, but I have been around too many teenagers to even think of dating one. I know 20 year olds who have barely grown up. I guess it just depends on a case by case basis. But on a whole, I wouldn't do it myself and I don't 100% support it. But I do believe if both parties are consenting, there is no manipulation going on I guess it could work out. But I personally would never think of a 15 year old, who basically is what, a freshman or sophmore in high school? as a potentional romantic partner.

True, emancipated teens are not the majority. However, case-by-case basis is how I prefer to look at it. There are 40 year olds that still live with their moms. My mother FINALLY stopped asking her mom's permission to decorate her own room the way she wanted when she was 50. Age is really just a number, that means it's MORE likely X is happening, but not guaranteed and LESS likely you are Y but again not guaranteed. A 16 year old may feel as unable to think of their fellow teens as potential romantic partners as you do, due to how different their lives are to the average teen. And a 40 year old may be living like a teenager with no freedom from their parents, because they still live at home under their parents rule. *shrug*

Of course, you don't have to date anyone not your type. :D But, I just can't condemn people who date people who are younger, when both parties are perfectly mature enough to decide if they want that relationship or not.

[Tarfeather]

@dandelionfluff: I don't know, the way you put it kind of irritates me. :/ It's as if you're saying that a person can be reduced to their age. Human beings are very complex things, and age is just one small factor in a myriad of constellations. So I have to agree with Serran here, you can not possibly begin to judge a relationship just by the age of the people involved.

[AprilStorms]

Someone brought up a really good point to me awhile ago about going by percentages in these things - a 30 y/o dating a 40/yo is way different than someone who's 20 trying to date someone who's 10, even though they both have 10-year age gaps. In the former couple, the older person is 125% of the younger's age. In the latter, 200%. See what I mean?

I would personally say that not only are a 25 y/o and 15 y/o in totally different stages of life (unless the younger one is an emancipated minor or some such), the age difference is much more significant if one party is underage. Ten years is, I think, far too big a gap for the balance of power to be healthy if one party is underage. Two or three years, sure (an 18 and 15 y/o = 120%), but ten just comes off as pedophilic and controlling.

Unless there were very extenuating circumstances, I would say no to both, but particularly the sexual one because of the risks of STD's/pregnancy/etc that the 15 y/o probably does not have as firm of a grasp of as the 25 y/o. And, of course, legal reasons if a child were conceived.

If I (were not a virgin teenager myself) had my own 15 year old child who wanted to date a 25 year old, I would say no. If they're really that great, they can wait for you to at least finish high school before you start dating.

[Qloshae]

I have no problem with it, but at the same time it is a huge investment for the older person.

First it would be a few years before sex, but if the older person wants a family they need to wait 10 YEARS because the younger person would have to finish university before such things would be really relevant for the younger person. By that time the older one would be 35!

On the topic of maturity, it depends on the person more than age. Mentally people are adults when they are about 12. Some people are however, to put it kindly, not the sharpest tools in the shed. Age has very little to do with this.

I have for example known a girl for a year now who is now 14 and she has never told me where she lives except the country, I knew a guy however about the same age, a bit older who gave me the exact place and in what city. Both are/were close friends of mine. Also, a girl my age that I dated for like 2 days told me that when she was around the age of 14 or something like that, I don't remember, she would take candy from strangers without a single thought...

When it comes to regretting sex then that has nothing to do with age and all to do with regretting who they had sex with.

[allrightalready]

On the topic of maturity, it depends on the person more than age. Mentally people are adults when they are about 12. Some people are however, to put it kindly, not the sharpest tools in the shed. Age has very little to do with this.

not even close

"The idea that suddenly at 18 you're an adult just doesn't quite ring true," says child psychologist Laverne Antrobus, who works at London's Tavistock Clinic.

"My experience of young people is that they still need quite a considerable amount of support and help beyond that age."

Child psychologists are being given a new directive which is that the age range they work with is increasing from 0-18 to 0-25.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24173194

[Qloshae]

On the topic of maturity, it depends on the person more than age. Mentally people are adults when they are about 12. Some people are however, to put it kindly, not the sharpest tools in the shed. Age has very little to do with this.

not even close

"The idea that suddenly at 18 you're an adult just doesn't quite ring true," says child psychologist Laverne Antrobus, who works at London's Tavistock Clinic.

"My experience of young people is that they still need quite a considerable amount of support and help beyond that age."

Child psychologists are being given a new directive which is that the age range they work with is increasing from 0-18 to 0-25.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24173194

Interesting.

As I have heard it, the complex reasoning comes around the age of 12 and that also involves a complex moral system.

This is what I primarily went by when I said "about 12". As then people no longer just do as authority tells them, but trust their own inner guidance and thus if they enter a relationship with another person they do it because they have decided it's what they want and not just assuming that the authority knows what is best for them.

[allrightalready]

On the topic of maturity, it depends on the person more than age. Mentally people are adults when they are about 12. Some people are however, to put it kindly, not the sharpest tools in the shed. Age has very little to do with this.

not even close

"The idea that suddenly at 18 you're an adult just doesn't quite ring true," says child psychologist Laverne Antrobus, who works at London's Tavistock Clinic.

"My experience of young people is that they still need quite a considerable amount of support and help beyond that age."

Child psychologists are being given a new directive which is that the age range they work with is increasing from 0-18 to 0-25.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24173194

Interesting.

As I have heard it, the complex reasoning comes around the age of 12 and that also involves a complex moral system.

This is what I primarily went by when I said "about 12". As then people no longer just do as authority tells them, but trust their own inner guidance and thus if they enter a relationship with another person they do it because they have decided it's what they want and not just assuming that the authority knows what is best for them.

point one, my study is newer than yours

point two, the fact that people start questioning authority at 12 only proves they are becoming individuals at that point not that they are mature individuals capable of making really serious decisions. the thing i pointed out in the driving test thread about teens having the worst driving records even demonstrates that

[Qloshae]

On the topic of maturity, it depends on the person more than age. Mentally people are adults when they are about 12. Some people are however, to put it kindly, not the sharpest tools in the shed. Age has very little to do with this.

not even close

"The idea that suddenly at 18 you're an adult just doesn't quite ring true," says child psychologist Laverne Antrobus, who works at London's Tavistock Clinic.

"My experience of young people is that they still need quite a considerable amount of support and help beyond that age."

Child psychologists are being given a new directive which is that the age range they work with is increasing from 0-18 to 0-25.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24173194

Interesting.

As I have heard it, the complex reasoning comes around the age of 12 and that also involves a complex moral system.

This is what I primarily went by when I said "about 12". As then people no longer just do as authority tells them, but trust their own inner guidance and thus if they enter a relationship with another person they do it because they have decided it's what they want and not just assuming that the authority knows what is best for them.

point one, my study is newer than yours

point two, the fact that people start questioning authority at 12 only proves they are becoming individuals at that point not that they are mature individuals capable of making really serious decisions. the thing i pointed out in the driving test thread about teens having the worst driving records even demonstrates that

Point 1:

"New guidance for psychologists will acknowledge that adolescence now effectively runs up until the age of 25 for the purposes of treating young people."

This isn't even about what we are talking about. What they are discussing is how society has created as "infantilised culture" and that child psychologists should deal with people up to the age of 25 instead of 18.

Point 2:

What I shared never states that they are done developing at that age, just that their brains have developed those functionalities.

Point 3:

There are very few sources saying that person who is around the age 12 - 14 has not developed all functionalities.

In fact, most I find say that a person has developed most of the functionalities by the time they are about 7.

[deltaX]

Personally, I think it depends a lot on the individuals involved. I think for most people such a significant age gap could be an issue, because the two people would be at such different points in their lives. I would be hesitant of the relationship regardless of sexual activity, but also willing to revise my assumptions if the it seemed like it would work of the two of them.

[Guest]

I have no problem with it, but at the same time it is a huge investment for the older person.

First it would be a few years before sex, but if the older person wants a family they need to wait 10 YEARS because the younger person would have to finish university before such things would be really relevant for the younger person. By that time the older one would be 35!

You assume all people want to go to University. You also assume all people start at 18. And that they go for 6-7 years. :D Some people get certifications instead, or start University at 16 (homeschoolers especially tend to do this in the U.S., as you can graduate early very easily and start on college credit 2 years early), or just go for a 2 or 4 year. Or don't even care to get formally educated and get trained on the job instead (factory workers etc). My cousin married at 16 to a 19 year old and started having kids that year. My cousin that married a 16 year old at 25 waited, not because of school, but because she wanted to enjoy her attractive / fit body without the scars of childbirth marring it and her husband was near 40 when they had their first (though, they had sex when she was 16, on their honeymoon, completely legal due to marriage). She runs her own business from home and co-runs his, no University needed.

There are too many variables to ever blanket state anything based off just age alone. :D

[R_1]

Underage relationships? Well, I like to be consistent with my philosophy and making it apply to everyone, and not just for group of individuals. In my case, I find that the law is sometimes unfair towards 17 years old and 18 years old and yet people older than 18 can go screw a 100 years old even if they're like 60 years different in age gap. That screams to me a very inconsistent philosophy of the law and in some cases, individuals.

My equation for maximum acceptable older partner age is (10/9)x+2*(10/9) and younger partner age is ABS((-0.9)x+2)

That means for a 16 years old, the max that is acceptable would be a 20 years old, and for a 70 years old, the max that is acceptable would be a 80 years old and vice versa. Why is this so? Well, there's no good reason to believe that a 20 years old would be so much different than a 16 years old in inherent functionality, and there's no good reason to support a double standard for anyone under 18.

[deltaX]

My equation for maximum acceptable older partner age is (10/9)x+2*(10/9) and younger partner age is ABS((-0.9)x+2)

Out of curiosity, how did you come up up with these equations? I'm not saying they are necessarily right or wrong, but I'm just wondering how you decided on these formulas that (to me at least) look completely arbitrary. Did you just try linear equations until you found one you were happy with, or is there some sort of logical reason for these numbers here that I am not seeing?

[allrightalready]

dang my age range is much larger, i have dated twice my age (someone in their 50s when i was 25) and i have dated as young as my own childrens age (21 when i was 50)

[ACWells]

The arbitrary age calculator I know of is half your own age plus seven. Obviously it only works past about 14 years old! It really should be a case by case basis though. I think over 16 as law (as it is in the UK) or maybe 14 with better sex education (as it is in Holland where the average age to lose it is 17 or 18) due to the issue of not being able to consent as an adult/maturity issues. I think 14 is too young, but I think 20 is too young for me, so... Individual merit, I guess. If sex isn't part of the equation it's less creepy, definitely, but how much would a 30 year old have in common with a 14 year old? Not in terms of both liking Pokemon and wcw (for example) but in terms of life experiences, what they want out of life, etc.

[Tarfeather]

If sex isn't part of the equation it's less creepy, definitely, but how much would a 30 year old have in common with a 14 year old? Not in terms of both liking Pokemon and wcw (for example) but in terms of life experiences, what they want out of life, etc.

Surprisingly much in some cases. One of my best friends I met with 14 when he was 24 and I could talk to him a lot better than I could talk to my peers. If I were female, he would probably have been pretty great relationship material for me, as he's a very trustworthy, honest and mature person and I've learned a lot from him. When you have topics like philosophy, programming and gaming to connect you, such differences in life experience aren't really a deal breaker in my opinion. :)

[Guest]

The arbitrary age calculator I know of is half your own age plus seven. Obviously it only works past about 14 years old! It really should be a case by case basis though. I think over 16 as law (as it is in the UK) or maybe 14 with better sex education (as it is in Holland where the average age to lose it is 17 or 18) due to the issue of not being able to consent as an adult/maturity issues. I think 14 is too young, but I think 20 is too young for me, so... Individual merit, I guess. If sex isn't part of the equation it's less creepy, definitely, but how much would a 30 year old have in common with a 14 year old? Not in terms of both liking Pokemon and wcw (for example) but in terms of life experiences, what they want out of life, etc.

*shrug* Almost all my friends when I was young were way, way older than me. At 15 I was hanging out with 18-28-55-22-21 ... I couldn't connect with 14 year olds at all. They wanted to talk about boys, shopping, school, etc. I would just kinda follow along and zone out while they talked, then go talk to the older crowd about things that were actually interesting. But, then, even at 5 or so I was more interested in hanging out with the adults, where I didn't have to watch what I said. I could actually tell the adults my dog HAD puppies and it was a difficult birth, so I had to get a warm, wet towel and gently coax them out of her as they were getting stuck and would suffocate in their sac without assistance. Try saying THAT to a group of 5 year olds haha ... the inability to connect with people my own age continued really, at 18 people were partying and I didn't want to. At 21 everyone was about getting drunk as often as possible, I didn't want to. Probably why my partners have always been older (15 & 18, 19 and 38, etc).

[Guest]

Yes, the asexual couple has "moral luck". They, through no fault or action of their own, are positioned to avoid moral trappings that others must take actual action to avoid.

Since I don't date people who can get me pregnant, I have the same kind of moral luck... accidental pregnancy/ an unwanted child is simply not an option for me.

Basically, if your circumstances are such that you can be categorically removed from a moral quandary, you've got moral luck. If the issue with statutory rape is (which it obviously is) sex, then the asexual couple needn't be considered in the issue at all.

As for reducing kids to their ages... by and large this is a very, very good thing IMO. As a very mature, smart kid, I can say that it's easy to assume that some youngsters are more mature than they are because that's how they appear, and because they have the common markers for "maturity". But Science has taught us that kids are kids until almost 25 years old... lots of things that you can't see go on behind the scenes in our brains, so just like a parrot can repeat but can't compose a poem, a 15 year old can appear mature but cannot have all the actual underpinnings to make them truly mature.

[Tarfeather]

As for reducing kids to their ages... by and large this is a very, very good thing IMO. As a very mature, smart kid, I can say that it's easy to assume that some youngsters are more mature than they are because that's how they appear, and because they have the common markers for "maturity". But Science has taught us that kids are kids until almost 25 years old... lots of things that you can't see go on behind the scenes in our brains, so just like a parrot can repeat but can't compose a poem, a 15 year old can appear mature but cannot have all the actual underpinnings to make them truly mature.

... And what's your point? You may be right that most 15 year olds are guaranteed to lack a certain kind of experience and maturity. But that in no way implies that a 25 year old does have that kind of experience and maturity. I mean, just look at me. I'm basically a 12 year old in an adult's body. x) Are you implying I should now not be dating other people my age because I lack their maturity?

[ACWells]

Individual merit, like I said. And Skullery Maid makes an excellent point- that our own maturity (or lack thereof) can't necessarily be globally applied to everyone else of our age.

Those of you who've said you have nothing in common with people of your own age and have sought elsewhere- kind of exceptions that prove the rule! After all, if you found yourself too mature (or immature) to seek companionship in your own age groups, it stands to reason that people of age groups you do identify with wouldn't have anything in common with your actual age groups either :)