Seeking Your Gender Advice and/or Stories (Yes, You)

[LibelandI]

Hi all,

Please note, all are welcome here. Personally, I'm a giant question mark/possibly a dude in a female body, but that doesn't mean I only want to hear from FtMs. Everyone's tale of discovery is appreciated.

It's been a long time since I was on AVEN. I used to come here a lot, when I was still figuring out what orientation I was - then I felt like I got it down, and I fell away from AVEN a bit, living my happy new life as the asexual I'd always been and never been able to put to words.

Flash forward three or four years. After a hard few months of being ruled by anxiety, I started to see a counsellor (for the second time) and it's been great once more. I'm on anti-anxiety medication, and more importantly, I'm surrounded by a supportive group of people, including my doctor, counsellor, friends and family.

I talked to my counsellor again today, and we had a good long discussion about the gender confusion that I'm trying to work through. That's what brought me back here; I need support for my gender issues the same way I needed support for my asexuality. So far, the only person that I've been able to talk to face to face about it is my counsellor. She agreed with me when I said the faceless folks on the internet would be an easier starting audience. I haven't had many negative reactions when I've expressed my gender 'the wrong way' - but the negative reactions I have gotten have been from people that mean a lot to me. In a way, it's been traumatic. None of those people are people I'm normally afraid to talk to, but I'm terrified to mention what I might be going through for fear of another outburst. Though, it's getting to the point where I don't want to stay in this androgynous limbo if I need to be doing something more to feel whole again. Knowing what I am will help me decide where to go from here, if anywhere.

Since almost none of that made sense, let me simplify with a long, rambling life story:

I was born female. For as long as I've been able to decide what I want to wear, I decided against wearing dresses. I was forced into a few of them for formal occasions, which quickly ceased as my tantrums grew worse. I wore one skirt, that I had chosen, for one day in grade three before realizing I couldn't sit properly (ie legs spread) and tossed the damn thing aside. That was the last dress I wore.

My sister and I are fairly close in age, and as such we'd often get identical or similar toys for presents. One time, our grandmother brought us two stuffed husky dogs from her Alaskan cruise. My sister declared hers a girl, and I declared mine a boy. This happened more than once. When I played pretend, I often played male characters. Even in video games as I got a bit older, if you could pick your character's gender, I would always pick male.

My mom was always careful to keep my obvious preferences at arm's length. If I was looking at something in the men's section while clothes shopping, she would quickly distract me with something from the women's. Usually the exact same shirt, but with ruches on the sleeves, for some fucking reason. There were a thousand unspoken compromises on clothes throughout my teenage years. As I said, I refused dresses, so mom got me dress pants and a flowy blouse which, of course, cleavage. Something she would not budge on was high heels. No, I could not have black dress shoes. If I wanted to go to the opera, I had to have high heels, because uterus. I put up with this because I thought, as a girl, I was supposed to. I thought all girls had to. It never occurred to me that women might actually want to wear this shit. I put up with it as a show of solidarity to the people I thought were my fellow prisoners.

That was highschool, basically. I kept my hair long, because I figured I had to, again, because all girls had to. I didn't mind it that much, really, all the clothes wars and things. I just never thought about it. Now I'm thinking about it, and I'm angry.

After getting my first job, and having a bit of my own money to spend, I found myself alone in Reitman's with a white shirt and black vest absorbing all of my attention. It was for women, even, so Mom had no chance to complain.

I bought more dress shirts. I bought fancy waistcoats. I bought bowties and puff ties. I cut my hair short, and I started to pomade the hell out of it. I wore suspenders. I bought polo shirts and men's shorts. A transvestite, I decided. I was a cisgendered female who just so happened to like dressing in traditionally male clothes. Fantastic! I know who I am now!

And then jump ahead...only a year or two. Not long, that I've been feeling this way. The first time I noticed how I was truly feeling was when I was talking to my dad, and I said something along the lines of, 'But I don't wanna be the only guy...girl! I mean, girl, doing it, you know.' When I accidentally called myself 'guy', it felt right. It felt like girl had been a mistake I'd been making my whole life. I'd felt the same way, looking at myself in the mirror in a vest and tie. It looked normal. It was comfortable. I was a guy, in a vest, and that was the truth.

Shortly after that, I started to think. I tried something I hadn't tried in a long time - sports bras. Boy howdy, talk about comfortable. And with a flat chest, my waistcoats looked twice as good. I was in heaven.

After all this heaven, I started a downward climb. I looked around at all the guys at work (I work a very physical farm job) and their muscles. We were doing the same job, lifting the same things, and they had muscles. I had fallopian tubes. Something started to twist in my mind, and it quickly became resentment. Not of them - they didn't choose testosterone. Not of my breasts, or even my hips. The resentment was of estrogen. I don't want to have children, I don't want to raise children, and yet, I have a body that is only capable of preparing for those things. No matter how hard I work, it will never pay off. I wanted a square, muscly body. If it has breasts, fine. If I have a certain percentage of body fat, fine. Why can't I have the muscles on top of that?

It was a bad time for body dysphoria to kick in, but, it's getting better. Dealing with that and crippling anxiety was too much, all at once, but now the anxiety's under control, I'm happy to say that I'm much more at ease with a female body. I can look at it without bitterness. That doesn't mean the rest doesn't stand - the male clothes, the desire for sideburns, and, the most recent addition, the constant circling thoughts.

This is the thing that really pushed me to say something, because it appears to be beyond my control. If I let my mind wander, I find myself thinking, over and over, of what I would call myself if I were a man. Kenneth. Clarence. Andrew. Alan. Orson. Which combination? Would I change my last name? Then I catch myself, and I think...what? What does this mean? I'd dismiss it as daydream if it didn't happen nearly every single day. I keep thinking of myself with broad shoulders, and facial hair, and a deep voice, and I feel at ease.

The thing is, I actually kind of like my female body. It's nice. I like my breasts quite a bit, actually. Although I don't feel like caring for children, I am pretty amazed by the fact that I could produce and nurture a human life with only the bits I have on me. I like women, and female bodies, and at this point I feel pretty good about my own, minus the involuntary lack of triceps.

I thought I was truly at peace, and happy, as a female bodied person, until I started having these thoughts about names and sideburns. That's when I found out what peace could be. I'm just hoping for someone to share their own experiences, so I can compare my own, and hopefully get a better sense of what I might be. I know I'm gender-confused, but I'd be more at ease knowing for certain if I was a trans man or not. I'm not looking for a 'yes no here's exactly what you are', I just need to hear some stories from a sympathetic crowd, to see how they relate to my own. Any help you can give is greatly appreciated.

[cosmosredshift7]

I consider myself bigender- I grew up.. playing with anything really, with my mostly male family, hated dressing like a girl, and I used to get really upset whenever I saw I looked masculine, because my mom always made emphasis that I had to look like a pretty girl for people to like me. I never knew what I wanted to wear; i didn't think that I ever looked good in anything, so she dressed me until my junior year of high school, when I just settled on t-shirts and jeans. For my hair, my mother made me keep it long, but I always hated dealing with it and taking care of it, so I would always just keep it up.

I also hated my body- my hips are horrible and huge, and I was never fully comfortable with my boobs. Looking back now, I know that "just being uncomfortable with myself" was actually dysphoria, and I'm pretty sure that I was just agender at the time. Like, I still have chest problems, especially when I'm not wearing..supportive tops, and I still can't stand looking at my hips but..yeah. For the most part, when i'm feminine, I'm neutral to these things.

Until my junior year of college, when I...became interested in feminine things, and finally felt like a girl. I wore dresses, learned how to use make-up, and I wanted to do those things. In that time, I also decided to cut my hair, which kind of helped me realize that I am still the same person before this change in gender.

So...I tried binding my chest (unsafely), wearing my brother's jacket, and thinking about myself...as a boy, while looking in a mirror. It felt just as right as being feminine; I was nervous, because 'what would my family think' but I was kind of relieved, in a way. So, I started to do this more often, just in my room by myself, until I finally told my roommate (who came out as genderfluid around the same time I was figuring the bigender thing out). Then, when we went back to school for our last semester, I started dressing either masculine (binding my chest, large shirts, and using my natural hair), feminine (wig, bra, and makeup), or somewhere in between (any combination really), based on whichever I felt like, and I slowly came out to my friends.

Gender can change- whether it's in an hour's time, days, or years; and it's possible to move between, or have multiple ones.

[Snao Cone]

These are very interesting stories! I think Western notions of gender and the gender dichotomy that matches oversimplified markers of biological sex fall very short of what gender actually encompasses, and we need to embrace non-binary, fluid, or bigender identities and concepts. I'm sure you both get a lot of messages, direct or implied, that you have to choose to be a man or a woman, and you have to modify your features accordingly. I hope that I can expand a few people's minds on this in my lifetime, even though I am a cisgender woman.

I wasn't very feminine for most of my childhood and early adulthood. I was a fat kid, and I was much closer to my brother when we were little and played with boyish toys and games. When I went through puberty I was so ashamed of the shape of my belly that I wore baggy clothes to mask my figure, My first couple years wearing makeup was more goth/punk experimentation than cosmetic augmentation. I didn't, and still don't, put effort into styling my hair in any feminine way (though it was only boyishly short for a year or two in elementary school).

I still identified as a girl in spite of all of this, because I was always a feminist at heart and I knew the problem was with the narrow definitions of gender and not a personal gender dysphoria. I still identify as a woman for similar reasons even though I don't follow most of the expected roles of wife and mother and nurturer and caregiver. I've become significantly more feminine over the past few years. I didn't wear dresses for a long time. Now I have several dresses and other distinctly feminine fashion in my closet. If I can be so fluid in my sense of gender within the binary category of "woman", I can certainly see how people could be fluid between genders on a spectrum, or determine this level of identity on a different plane from the masculine-feminine spectrum.

Anyway, I hope you all find support for your gender and making choices towards living as yourself, instead of making compromises to be consistent with very limiting roles and definitions.

[butterflydreams]

I thought I was truly at peace, and happy, as a female bodied person, until I started having these thoughts about names and sideburns. That's when I found out what peace could be. I'm just hoping for someone to share their own experiences, so I can compare my own, and hopefully get a better sense of what I might be. I know I'm gender-confused, but I'd be more at ease knowing for certain if I was a trans man or not. I'm not looking for a 'yes no here's exactly what you are', I just need to hear some stories from a sympathetic crowd, to see how they relate to my own. Any help you can give is greatly appreciated.

Well, in my case, it was clear I wasn't at peace, or happy, though it wasn't clear why. As you say though, then you realized what peace could be. I'd say it's very much been the same kind of thing for me. I never knew what it was like to look at myself in a mirror or photo and actually break out in genuine smile until very recently. I can hardly believe it took so long.

Your story about names is interesting. I'd never actually thought about this until reading what you wrote, but for the longest time I can remember thinking about what female names I liked most. "How can I actualize those likes?" I would think. This was long before I started to look at myself with any kind of real introspection, so I thought, "well obviously the only way to actualize those names is to have a daughter or something." Which was a depressing thought. That was so far away, if even possible at all. And how come I was never interested in male names the same way? Really. I didn't have any preference. A son? Meh.

So the names thing on its own? Not sure. You certainly get to ascribe whatever meaning to it that you'd like :)

And yes, no one here is going to say, "yeah, ok, this is what you are ..." If you're feeling gender-confused, I'll tell you the one secret though that's sure to help you out. Ready? Time. Just give it time. And be kind to yourself. Show yourself compassion and understanding. Let yourself feel confused. Let yourself debate meanings of minute things. Analyze till you're blue in the face, take a hiatus, and come back and do some more. Whatever you want. However you want to do it. The clouds may not part and reveal the all-truth-answer, but things will become more and more clear. That's the journey.

P.S. Sideburns reminded me of the summer(?) or two I spent trying to do that look. Wow...looking back on it...hahaha, suffice it to say, it's extremely unlikely I'll ever allow facial hair again. My mom liked it, but my mom always likes to refer to me as her "handsome boy" no matter how much I protest. We'll get there.

[GhostPrince]

I don't know if my experiences will count as advice or not.. I won't include everything or describe details, but enough to paint a general picture of my story.

I'm a Christian, first off. I grew up in a church setting and family which greatly influenced my views on gender, orientations, etc. It wasn't until my early high school years that I started questioning my gender because of an illness I developed called PCOS. In short, my hormones got imbalanced where my body produced more male sex hormones than female sex hormones (I am biologically female). Because of this my general (sexual/romantic) feelings changed, my sex drive diminished greatly, I stopped getting my monthly flow/was irregular and I started to grow facial hair. I thought something was wrong me. I literally felt like I was transitioning into a male against my will. I felt my only solution was to accept the changes and embrace them. (Again, I didn't know at the time that I had a serious illness) The conclusion I made was that I was bigender, genderfluid, or just androgynous. I also identified as being pansexual. I was in a small community that really supported me and I met wonderful friends and got insight and help.

When I reached my senior year of high school, I felt that those terms didn't define me. In short I decided to not identify as pansexual because I didn't think that truly fit my orientation. I've felt like I should be heterosexual. I wasn't attracted to my same gender (females) or other genders/non-genders. As for my gender/sex, I was biologically a girl, and the illness only made me feel more masculine (hard to really explain). I never wanted to truly identify as male, but I didn't know if i should identify as female. I thought I had more of a male oriented brain, rather than the idea of "male trapped in a female's body" feeling. All my life I've been a tomboy type of girl, which made this more confusing. I've liked more "boy" things than "girl" things, but I still like "girl"things as an aesthetic. In the end I identified as a cis female heterosexual. Basically the norm. It didn't feel 100% correct, but it was what I felt most comfortable with. Around this time I concluded I had some form of pcos, and I started to take pills to re-balance my hormones. This took off the masculine feelings, I was regular again, and I didn't feel numb, etc. (idk how to explain this either). In a sense, I felt "normal" and healthier. I didn't have strange feelings, etc. I still have facial hair and my sex drive never really returned. I actually felt like I never even had it.

When I reached college I was introduced to/stumbled upon the asexual community and it was as if I found myself. I felt that this is where I needed to be, this is where I belonged. At the same time I was growing in my Christian faith. I was questioning my orientation because I wasn't comfortable with sex and the community made me feel like that wasn't a bad thing. Other Christian asexuals also really helped me. Non-asexual Christians also helped me.

So in the end, and currently, I identify most as a hetero demiromantic demisexual (the specifics and other half of my story (including trigger warnings) of how I came to the conclusion of being part of the asexual spectrum [and I'm still deciding] is in another thread)

Again, this is just a general, summarized version of what I've gone through, etc.

[nerdperson777]

So many trans DFAB people would probably like what you have, GhostPrince. I'd be on the fence of whether I wanted that because I'm a bit more non-binary than a 100% FtM.

I knew when I was younger I did not like feminine clothing. I never did. Dresses were only when I was between the ages of 1 and 3 I think. Fortunately, my mom wasn't much of a girly woman so she didn't wear any and I didn't have to wear them. For my entire life until last year, I just accepted I was a tomboy. I never changed my Asian bowl cut (will in about a month), and my regular clothing was a t-shirt with jeans and a jacket/hoodie. My cousins introduced me to video games when I was very young and I thought they were the most amazing thing ever. Unfortunately, my parents were more pushy with my academics so if I had 5 games it was too many when my cousins could have well over 500 games. And online games on PC? They were great. I often chose the male gender for my characters. I was often disrespected for being female so in games my gender was male until I got in a conversation with someone and my true identity had to be revealed. But even then, I was an extremely shy child, which now I know is from my experience with people. I was afraid to say that I wanted to be a boy. I didn't want to stick out of a crowd. I didn't want to go on a path that others have not traveled before. But boys' clothing made me feel great. I'd choose them over the girls' version with the sad excuse for a sleeve. I also don't have much, if any, aesthetic attraction so I'd be totally fine if my entire wardrobe was dark.

I didn't know why I didn't like dresses, skirts, Barbies, sparkly objects, the color pink. I just didn't. But I'm not a total FtM so I did have a connection to Teletubbies, which dolls I still have in my room at home. It wasn't overly girly or boyish. The only thing that happened later was that my favorite color was yellow for some time since I liked the yellow Teletubby. I played Yugioh and Naruto trading cards with guys, even though my deck had awful cards in it.

All these boy things, I really liked. But I couldn't be absolutely certain that I was FtM. My shy behavior is normally attributed to that of a girl, so it's hard to even try to be seen as a boy. When I first came to AVEN, I said I was transgender and asexual. I didn't want to be an absolute guy who lifts weights and has loads of facial hair. Then I found out there was a spectrum. I looked at the terms and decided that transmasculine fit me. I like being referred to be as male, but at the time I accepted that my body is female so no matter what I said, I was female in people's eyes. I was hesitant of whether I wanted T because I wanted to keep my androgynous/high voice (D3 to maybe A6).

But I hate my body. I knew before anything happened, I didn't want boobs or periods. I always tried to hide them. I slouched a lot from middle school to junior year of high school. In senior year, I thought if I wanted to have the confidence of a guy, I had to bust it out (no pun intended). Fortunately I have almost no metabolism so I didn't grow much in the boob department. But I had trouble accepting the facts. How can there be in between gender? People are what they are. If a trans individual likes the same gender they wanted to be, they're straight, right? It took me a while to get what this all was. I can't be trans. I don't want to be a man. I don't want balls. What's that? I can be not entirely male? I can still be trans? Okay. I still exhibit some feminine characteristics to seem like a normal girl.

Over a year ago, I tried describing my hands as gay man hands since they're so flashy. I also hold them together when I'm insecure. I know now that I can be a femme boy, just not a girl. I saw on some other thread that there was some Sage test. I took it, and it said everything about me was androgynous, except my appearance. It was somehow masculine when I have been pretty androgynous all this time. I could be a little more masculine, but I'm a boy so I don't want to let go of all my female traits. Being non-binary can get a bit confusing,

[DigitalBookDust]

I'm AFAB but petite and look very boyish (thank goodness). I'm ace, aro, and agender so that's very cool with me. I've always been that way and never been comfortable being seen as a girl. My mother tells me that when I was a baby and she dressed me in frilly girly things, I'd throw up on them, but when she put on a plain shirt, I was fine. I've never had much dysphoria, though I don't particularly care for having breasts. Fortunately for me, mine are small. I don't bind or even wear a bra. I just ignore them and wear loose t-shirts or oxfords. I don't see myself as masculine or feminine, more neutrois.

[Selasphorus]

Yay stories! I love stories! Thanks for sharing, everyone!

As for me, I only really started questioning my gender after I found AVEN and started reading through the posts on gender. And that's how I figured out that I didn't have to be a girl, which I was pretty bad at, but I've never wanted to completely switch to the male side. I've always been on the tomboy side of things, and my wardrobe has been drifting more and more androgynous for a while. Now I know why and I'm happier about it. No more feeling guilty about failing at femininity. I lucked out with a very androgynous name too (thank you, parents).

I'm still not very sure how much of my (lack of) gender identity was nature and how much was nurture, but either way this is how I turned out. I've set homework for myself to finally go clothes shopping on the male side the next time I'm out. If I can find sizes small enough, I really want some jeans with decent pockets...

[Calligraphette_Coe]

I thought I was truly at peace, and happy, as a female bodied person, until I started having these thoughts about names and sideburns. That's when I found out what peace could be. I'm just hoping for someone to share their own experiences, so I can compare my own, and hopefully get a better sense of what I might be. I know I'm gender-confused, but I'd be more at ease knowing for certain if I was a trans man or not. I'm not looking for a 'yes no here's exactly what you are', I just need to hear some stories from a sympathetic crowd, to see how they relate to my own. Any help you can give is greatly appreciated.

I could give you the clever answer of "You're unique! Just like everyone else." But that one's not too hard to see through, so have a shot at this one: suppose everyone who had, say XX chromosomes had EXACTLY the same face and body? How much pain and angst would *that* cause?

I think the same thing happens when cisgendered people try to paint some of us with a similar single bristle brush. I just want to scream, "Don't DO that!" We're much, much more than a 3D shadow for a role, more than our reproductive potential (or lack thereof) and are our own unique gold standard. Biology is just along for a ride, not vice versa.

Were it any different, the minds that burn with such a hot flame of passion and creativity along lines *other* than reproduction could NEVER have made such blessed marks on the human racial memory.

[dissolved]

I thought I was truly at peace, and happy, as a female bodied person, until I started having these thoughts about names and sideburns. That's when I found out what peace could be.

This is a really nice way of articulating the mess that is my usual thought pattern.

I wouldn't say I've always felt something was wrong, but that it wasn't quite right, if I may make that distinction. I've repressed a lot of crap and just got on with my life because as far as I knew that was what I was supposed to do. I've always known I'm male minded (albeit mildly), but I didn't ever want to use the trans label because I never felt "trapped" in this body. I've since realised that this was a stereotype, and that gender dysphoria can be far far more subtle than looking in the mirror and having the desire to attempt a double mastectomy with a kitchen knife.

When my mother describes her children, she says she has two daughters, but that one is "terrifically tomboyish" (and ironically, she gave me the flowery name and gave my feminine sister the gender neutral name). I've recently told my mother that I'm not female, and she said she's always known, because apparently my first full sentence was "but mummy, I don't want to wear a dress because they're for girls". I don't remember much of my childhood but I do know I wasn't girly in any fashion, despite my mother's encouragement to be so.

I've tried desperately to live up to her (and society's) expectations and always failed miserably. I've tried to do the heteronormative thing and always failed miserably. I've tried to cram myself into a box marked "unfortunately female" and always failed miserably. Not so long ago I snapped and realised that I couldn't fake being a woman any more, because I'm not a woman. I've been living/displaying as the female side of androgynous for simplicity's sake, to avoid drawing attention to myself, to simply get by. And if I continue living like that I know I will one day drive head on into a brick wall, off a bridge or whatever.

Soooo I got over myself and admitted to my GP that I'm FtM but at the moment I'm unsure how far I want to take it/allow it to go. I would have top surgery without a second's hesitation but as far as hormones and all that other stuff go... I dunno. Facial hair? Yes, please. Improved muscle tone? Aye. Deeper voice? Aye. But I would draw the line there, if I could.

[LibelandI]

Thank you all for your wonderful stories. I'm sorry I can't reply to all of you individually - that would take days ^_^ I've read all of your posts, though, and they certainly gave me a lot to reflect on. It's great to hear I'm not alone.

I'm very grateful to have you all here. I'm in a bit of an unfortunate situation where I am surrounded by nothing but supportive, open-minded people, except for one person that matters to me a lot, which in the finest sense of 'cliche' happens to be my mother. My counsellor asked me who I could talk to about all my confusion, and I said the same thing. I would love to tell people that I'm confused, that I'm questioning, ask if they could try calling me 'he' for a few days just to see what it's like, but I don't know how my mother would react.

It's truly unfortunate because she is not closed-minded. She's supportive of all creeds, and colours, and sexualities, but there was one incident between us that's made me unsure if I can talk about gender issues with her. If it hadn't happened, I'd be there in an instant telling her everything. If she had been horrible my entire life, I could at least know that she'd be horrible and prepare for it. Not knowing what she might do has me paralyzed. I desperately don't want to go through that again.

I'll write the story below, just to get it out there. Feel free to skip over this last part, I won't mind. I'm just writing it for me. I haven't put it on paper yet, or told anyone besides my counsellor, so I may as well start here as it fits the topic at hand.

We were on a family vacation, my dad, my brother, my mother and I. I have a sister as well, but she couldn't go that week. We were on Joco Cruise 3, sharing a cabin on a big ol' boat in the middle of the ocean. It was about 6 in the evening, and we were all getting ready to go to formal night in the dining room.

So, Dad is in a white tuxedo complete with frilly shirt, because he's my dad and I love him. Brother is in a black suit and tie (sure, I love him too, I guess ;) ). Mum is in a beautiful dress and is putting on her earrings in the mirror.

I'm wearing the compromise that my mother and I had silently negotiated on land: black dress pants, white dress shirt, black jacket. I finally won my right to wear black dress shoes after the long war of attrition against high heels. Essentially, I'm wearing a business suit. It's a man's suit, minus functioning pockets and a tie.

I don't remember how it started. I don't think I was even asking to wear a tie. I think I said, in a moment of hubris, "I think this would look better with a tie."

Dad said, "I've got one around here, I think. You wanna try it on?"

I said, "Sure, let's see how it looks!"

As Dad is reaching for the tie, Mum looks at him. Not at me, at him, and says, "She can't wear a tie."

Even if I had been the one to be addressed, I still would have had nothing to say. I was trying to process what that was even supposed to mean. This is the woman who raised me to be loving and respectful to everyone - homosexuals, the homeless, the disabled, people of different faiths, people of different colours, even animals. Not once had I ever seen a trace of intolerance in my mother.

I can sense the awkwardness coming off my brother and father as well. It's clear that they're thinking the same thing. Dad, being the only real adult in the room, is the first one to find his voice.

"Uh, why not?" he asks, rather politely I thought. Mum rounds on him from the mirror and snaps, again at Dad and not at me:

"Because women do NOT wear ties, <Dad's name>, not even lesbians!"

Then she turns back to finish up her jewelry, not paying me a single glance. I don't remember much about what happened after that. I wasn't sure what to feel. I was used to her turning up her nose at my masculine dress, but hatred of it was a new thing. Seeing her get so angry over something I considered fairly insignificant, namely, a strip of fabric, was baffling. Her not being able to look at me while she said it nearly made me sick.

I believe the three of us in jackets went out in the hall to wait for her, as we were all ready. I do remember Dad pulling me aside and asking if I wanted him to talk to Mum on my behalf. Still processing, I said no. I remember saying, "I just want to have a nice family dinner. Don't do it right now."

Strangely enough, dinner was actually okay. Mum's outburst faded into the past, and we never spoke of it again, as is common in our family. It never faded from my mind, though. I'm terrified to bring up anything about gender to her now, because the last thing I want is to feel the way that I felt that night once more.

I can't even begin to address all the things wrong with my Mum's statement. Women DO wear ties, of course, even lesbians. What she meant was, they are not supposed to, according to arbitrary fashion laws. Also, in case it wasn't clear: I'm not a lesbian. Worse than that, I'm fairly certain she meant to insult me by calling me one. Using 'lesbian' as an insult is pretty disgusting, and purposely mislabelling me as one is just as bad. This is after I told her about my asexuality, which she accepted with a second thought. Not so with ties, it seems.

[butterflydreams]

I thought I was truly at peace, and happy, as a female bodied person, until I started having these thoughts about names and sideburns. That's when I found out what peace could be. I'm just hoping for someone to share their own experiences, so I can compare my own, and hopefully get a better sense of what I might be. I know I'm gender-confused, but I'd be more at ease knowing for certain if I was a trans man or not. I'm not looking for a 'yes no here's exactly what you are', I just need to hear some stories from a sympathetic crowd, to see how they relate to my own. Any help you can give is greatly appreciated.

I could give you the clever answer of "You're unique! Just like everyone else." But that one's not too hard to see through, so have a shot at this one: suppose everyone who had, say XX chromosomes had EXACTLY the same face and body? How much pain and angst would *that* cause?

I think the same thing happens when cisgendered people try to paint some of us with a similar single bristle brush. I just want to scream, "Don't DO that!" We're much, much more than a 3D shadow for a role, more than our reproductive potential (or lack thereof) and are our own unique gold standard. Biology is just along for a ride, not vice versa.

Were it any different, the minds that burn with such a hot flame of passion and creativity along lines *other* than reproduction could NEVER have made such blessed marks on the human racial memory.

Ooo, I want to second this and kind of add something from my experience. If I'm not quite understanding what you were getting at let me know.

One of the biggest things that shifted for me, and in fact, opened the door of possibility at all was understanding that hey, being a trans woman doesn't necessarily mean you were a girly-boy as a kid. It doesn't mean you're even necessarily into lots of girly things now. It doesn't mean you necessarily have this desire to be super femme. If it meant any of those things...I'd be out of the game, as I thought I was up until recently.

It's not like that though. It's a framework. A scaffold. And you're the plant at the bottom. Some plants like to grow on male scaffolding. Some plants like to grow on female scaffolding. Some plants like to grow on agender scaffolding, or both kinds of scaffolding, or whatever. The scaffold isn't exciting though. It's just an empty shell. The plant growing on it is exciting. That's you! With all your quirks, personality, preferences, experiences, etc.

What I realized is that plant me would grow so much stronger and better on female scaffolding. I'm still me. I still have the same quirks, preferences, personality, etc, but if I'm able to grow on that scaffolding instead of the one I was given, I know I can be a much more happy, complete person. The scaffolding works with me instead of against me. I can be the girl who loves cars even if that is a typically masculine interest. I can be me.

Anyway, hope this was clear and not confusing :)

[Snao Cone]

@ Libelandi - I've also had moments when my mother has said something that goes against the open mind and acceptance she taught me. I understand how one passing statement from somebody so deeply important to you can affect you for years to come without that person even knowing it was hurtful. Based on your description of her, I get the impression that your mother would listen to what you have to say and be very accepting. (I mean, if I were on a cruise ship with my family I would have a shorter temper and say a lot of things I don't really mean <_< )

[Dakkon]

We were on a family vacation, my dad, my brother, my mother and I. I have a sister as well, but she couldn't go that week. We were on Joco Cruise 3, sharing a cabin on a big ol' boat in the middle of the ocean...

Sorry to hear about how your mother took your choice of attire on that vacation, sounds almost as if she's too attached to a particular idea of what her children should be and isn't taking a contradiction to that idea too well. In my own opinion, one of the primary responsibilities of a parent is to guide, not control ones children. Hopefully, I can embody that principle as a parent one day.

I would add my own story to this thread; but because I haven't found a simple means to summarize my understanding of my own gender without rambling about all of the contradictions and how I view certain aspects of it, I'll refrain for now.

[LibelandI]

It's not like that though. It's a framework. A scaffold. And you're the plant at the bottom. Some plants like to grow on male scaffolding. Some plants like to grow on female scaffolding. Some plants like to grow on agender scaffolding, or both kinds of scaffolding, or whatever. The scaffold isn't exciting though. It's just an empty shell. The plant growing on it is exciting. That's you! With all your quirks, personality, preferences, experiences, etc.

What I realized is that plant me would grow so much stronger and better on female scaffolding. I'm still me. I still have the same quirks, preferences, personality, etc, but if I'm able to grow on that scaffolding instead of the one I was given, I know I can be a much more happy, complete person. The scaffolding works with me instead of against me. I can be the girl who loves cars even if that is a typically masculine interest. I can be me.

I think that's a brilliant way to describe it, Hadley. What a perfect metaphor.

I would add my own story to this thread; but because I haven't found a simple means to summarize my understanding of my own gender without rambling about all of the contradictions and how I view certain aspects of it, I'll refrain for now.

Anytime you feel ready, please do ^_^

@ Libelandi - I've also had moments when my mother has said something that goes against the open mind and acceptance she taught me. I understand how one passing statement from somebody so deeply important to you can affect you for years to come without that person even knowing it was hurtful. Based on your description of her, I get the impression that your mother would listen to what you have to say and be very accepting. (I mean, if I were on a cruise ship with my family I would have a shorter temper and say a lot of things I don't really mean <_< )

Thank you, SnowCone. I needed to hear this. I'm actually crying a little bit - I think I'm just relieved to not feel so alone anymore.

I'm trying to work up the chutzpah to say something to her. She and Dad both have offered to sit in on a counselling session if I want them to, and my counsellor has said that's a good idea, so I might start there.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

I could give you the clever answer of "You're unique! Just like everyone else." But that one's not too hard to see through, so have a shot at this one: suppose everyone who had, say XX chromosomes had EXACTLY the same face and body? How much pain and angst would *that* cause?

I think the same thing happens when cisgendered people try to paint some of us with a similar single bristle brush. I just want to scream, "Don't DO that!" We're much, much more than a 3D shadow for a role, more than our reproductive potential (or lack thereof) and are our own unique gold standard. Biology is just along for a ride, not vice versa.

Were it any different, the minds that burn with such a hot flame of passion and creativity along lines *other* than reproduction could NEVER have made such blessed marks on the human racial memory.

Ooo, I want to second this and kind of add something from my experience. If I'm not quite understanding what you were getting at let me know.

One of the biggest things that shifted for me, and in fact, opened the door of possibility at all was understanding that hey, being a trans woman doesn't necessarily mean you were a girly-boy as a kid. It doesn't mean you're even necessarily into lots of girly things now. It doesn't mean you necessarily have this desire to be super femme. If it meant any of those things...I'd be out of the game, as I thought I was up until recently.

It's not like that though. It's a framework. A scaffold. And you're the plant at the bottom. Some plants like to grow on male scaffolding. Some plants like to grow on female scaffolding. Some plants like to grow on agender scaffolding, or both kinds of scaffolding, or whatever. The scaffold isn't exciting though. It's just an empty shell. The plant growing on it is exciting. That's you! With all your quirks, personality, preferences, experiences, etc.

What I realized is that plant me would grow so much stronger and better on female scaffolding. I'm still me. I still have the same quirks, preferences, personality, etc, but if I'm able to grow on that scaffolding instead of the one I was given, I know I can be a much more happy, complete person. The scaffolding works with me instead of against me. I can be the girl who loves cars even if that is a typically masculine interest. I can be me.

Anyway, hope this was clear and not confusing :)

I like your metaphor, Hads, and sure wish I could have grown up in a time and place that allowed for it? I feel like I grew up in Gender Afghanistan, where there were only cisgender poppy plants and gender dimorphism based on strict Abrahamic cultural revelation.

It's ironic in a way, in that when you grew up in the Cold War era, it was expected that boys wanted to be something like fighter pilots. Nevermind that most people can't tolerate the G-force effects of flying high performance aircraft in dogfights, and it has little to do with how manly you might be. People who can do it well are sometimes known as G-monsters, and it has more to do with science than testosterone. You have to know what's happening to your body and how to counteract it without thinking, or you're dead.

Being a bit on the small side and having cat-like reflexes, I could drive rings around the same people who used to bully me. Some of them would say things like "That **** sure can drive!" But that was about the only respect I got other than what I could engineer or fix for them. I just had a hungry mind that liked everything about being able to create things whether it was with a soldering iron, blow torch, drill press or sewing machine.

And I just thought, 'What does gender have to do with this? Why wouldn't *everybody* want to escape the stifling influence of gender, where 'only girls can do this, only boys can do that' and yada yada yada. Fail.

I guess I've kind of crashed and burned, though, as far as my transition has gone. It's like my ride malfunctioned at high speed, the nose pitched up violently and even though I might be the trans version of a g-monster, I pulled a couple too many g's when my elevator trim tabs locked. And was lucky to have come out of the gray fog before I rolled over inverted and pitched down. But having been through that, I can tolerate a lot more dysphoria than many people. Even though it still is really gut-wrenching.

[butterflydreams]

I like your metaphor, Hads, and sure wish I could have grown up in a time and place that allowed for it? I feel like I grew up in Gender Afghanistan, where there were only cisgender poppy plants and gender dimorphism based on strict Abrahamic cultural revelation.

It's ironic in a way, in that when you grew up in the Cold War era, it was expected that boys wanted to be something like fighter pilots. Nevermind that most people can't tolerate the G-force effects of flying high performance aircraft in dogfights, and it has little to do with how manly you might be. People who can do it well are sometimes known as G-monsters, and it has more to do with science than testosterone. You have to know what's happening to your body and how to counteract it without thinking, or you're dead.

Being a bit on the small side and having cat-like reflexes, I could drive rings around the same people who used to bully me. Some of them would say things like "That **** sure can drive!" But that was about the only respect I got other than what I could engineer or fix for them. I just had a hungry mind that liked everything about being able to create things whether it was with a soldering iron, blow torch, drill press or sewing machine.

And I just thought, 'What does gender have to do with this? Why wouldn't *everybody* want to escape the stifling influence of gender, where 'only girls can do this, only boys can do that' and yada yada yada. Fail.

I guess I've kind of crashed and burned, though, as far as my transition has gone. It's like my ride malfunctioned at high speed, the nose pitched up violently and even though I might be the trans version of a g-monster, I pulled a couple too many g's when my elevator trim tabs locked. And was lucky to have come out of the gray fog before I rolled over inverted and pitched down. But having been through that, I can tolerate a lot more dysphoria than many people. Even though it still is really gut-wrenching.

I think I read or heard somewhere that being physically smaller was adventageous when it came to handling more Gs in fighter planes and such. Not sure why though. Isn't one of the top stunt pilots in the world a woman?

Hopefully this isn't a complete derailment of this thread (which I'm loving btw), but I've always been very much the same in terms of having the urge to create. I just loved knowing that some thing that I used regularly? I could make that! Myself! When I learned to sew in middle school home-ec class...I took it way too far, just like everything else I learned how to do :) I used to patch holes in clothes all the time. I was so proud of this pillow I made too. I've got too much other stuff going on at the moment, but I do plan on learning to make my own shirts at some point.

As far as growing up somewhere that allowed the flexibility to find your optimal scaffold...I don't know if there's anywhere like that. Even today. Some places are better than others, sure, but I always felt the ultimate prison is the one you create in your own mind. Yes I'm sure plenty of people aren't prone to that, but I definitely am. I want to help others realize what I didn't because I couldn't see past the prison walls. Those walls provide some level of safety, right up until they don't. Nobody can get in, sure, but you can't get out either :( And then one day, you realize the prison you're in, and you don't know how to get out.

I guess you could call this the long game, since the only way young people like younger me will stop building those prisons is if the positive messages are constant and pervasive. That kind of thing just takes time. Hopefully the recent trend we seem to have going there continues.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

I think I read or heard somewhere that being physically smaller was adventageous when it came to handling more Gs in fighter planes and such. Not sure why though. Isn't one of the top stunt pilots in the world a woman?

Hopefully this isn't a complete derailment of this thread (which I'm loving btw), but I've always been very much the same in terms of having the urge to create. I just loved knowing that some thing that I used regularly? I could make that! Myself! When I learned to sew in middle school home-ec class...I took it way too far, just like everything else I learned how to do :) I used to patch holes in clothes all the time. I was so proud of this pillow I made too. I've got too much other stuff going on at the moment, but I do plan on learning to make my own shirts at some point.

As far as growing up somewhere that allowed the flexibility to find your optimal scaffold...I don't know if there's anywhere like that. Even today. Some places are better than others, sure, but I always felt the ultimate prison is the one you create in your own mind. Yes I'm sure plenty of people aren't prone to that, but I definitely am. I want to help others realize what I didn't because I couldn't see past the prison walls. Those walls provide some level of safety, right up until they don't. Nobody can get in, sure, but you can't get out either :( And then one day, you realize the prison you're in, and you don't know how to get out.

I guess you could call this the long game, since the only way young people like younger me will stop building those prisons is if the positive messages are constant and pervasive. That kind of thing just takes time. Hopefully the recent trend we seem to have going there continues.

But that was part of the problem.... we were totally political prisoners, all under only one tent that was literally against the law and listed in the DSM *only* as deviance, sometimes to be treated with electroconvulsive "therapy". Just having long hair (mine was extremely blond and reached the middle of my back) brought you under the scrutiny of the police. And wearing female clothing? It was very likely you'd end up in the clink, sometimes on trumped up charges, but always on the 'we don't allow *your* kind here." And the law they'd do it under was something totally absurd, like it being technically illegal to wear a disguise!

Even in the early nineties, it was a violation of TOS on AOL to use words like transvestite or transsexual or hold discussions in public chatrooms about *any* kind of gender variance. At least until AOL found out how much money some of more well heeled customers were spending a month at $2.95/hr. Once again, money vs bigotry sees money winning, but wasn't it absurd that it happened *at all*?

So, you can imagine how liberating it felt when the Internet finally developed back channels where one could discuss things we discuss openly in this forum all the time.

On the subject of XX vs XY in G-force tolerance, it's all about the science. It's being short and probably having a lower center of gravity that gives the advantage. The airframes and avionics were good to 20 Gs, it was the bag of bones in the cockpit that had their control center graying out at just 6 Gs. Ironically, people from Hollywood movies like John Wayne would have been waaaay to prone to the effects because of their size, and would NEVER have made it to the cockpit of high performance aircraft. And how in the future, there may be just as many or more female UAV/drone pilots. Really, even today, Fire-And-Forget-Weapons make dogfights totally obsolete.

Maybe we should make a thread about this? I've seen these discussions before, and they are often *very* interesting! And eliminate a lot of bias through pointing out that myths are called that for a reason-- like the one that women can't be good fighter pilots because they aren't aggressive enough. That one gets blown out of the air every time, LOL.

[Heart]

@ Libelandi - I've also had moments when my mother has said something that goes against the open mind and acceptance she taught me. I understand how one passing statement from somebody so deeply important to you can affect you for years to come without that person even knowing it was hurtful. Based on your description of her, I get the impression that your mother would listen to what you have to say and be very accepting. (I mean, if I were on a cruise ship with my family I would have a shorter temper and say a lot of things I don't really mean <_< )

Thank you, SnowCone. I needed to hear this. I'm actually crying a little bit - I think I'm just relieved to not feel so alone anymore.

I'm trying to work up the chutzpah to say something to her. She and Dad both have offered to sit in on a counselling session if I want them to, and my counsellor has said that's a good idea, so I might start there.

Bringing your parents to a counselling session may actually be a good idea! That way, if things go south, you at least know that you have one ally in your counsellor. Though, it sounds like your father would be on your side too. It is often easier though to talk to important people like this when you have a mediator in the room. I'd suggest giving it a shot :)

[Ace_Kat]

Incredible story by the way :)

I don't have much of a story, because I just started questioning my gender. I have not really talked about it until now, so please bear with me. Whenever I looked in the mirror, when my chest started to grow (aka puberty), I did not like it. I did not like the look/feel of breasts. I don't feel like a girl, but I don't feel like a boy either. I sometimes wish I was born without breasts and without reproductive organs (I hate getting periods :( ) this sounds weird, but I never really liked being a girl, but I don't want to be a boy either. I wish to find gender-neutral clothes to wear and then I would feel comfortable in my own body. Even though I was born as cis-female, I am leaning towards agender.

[LibelandI]

Whenever I looked in the mirror, when my chest started to grow (aka puberty), I did not like it. I did not like the look/feel of breasts. I don't feel like a girl, but I don't feel like a boy either. I sometimes wish I was born without breasts and without reproductive organs (I hate getting periods :( ) this sounds weird, but I never really liked being a girl, but I don't want to be a boy either.

I know how you feel. That seems to be where I am right now as well. A few days ago, I was thinking how awful it was to not have triceps. Today, I was reflecting on how miserable I would have been growing up as a boy. Constant competition, worthless aggression, not being able to cry in public - I'm honestly starting to feel more and more comfortable in this body. I still want to dress in male clothes, though. That never changes.

I started puberty fairly early. I got my first period at 11, and had already started to grow breasts by the time I turned 10. I often wore two T-shirts to school in order to hide them. I was never bullied; though, as is typical throughout my life, my mother asked me to stop and took me shopping for lace-ridden bras instead. I resisted wearing shorts after that as well, for a number of reasons - the new distribution of fat on my body made me think my thighs were too big, which in turn was partly because of the myriad neuroses about eating that my mother imparted onto me, also because I was not allowed to shop for sensible boy's shorts that covered what I thought of as a problem; instead of wearing the tissue-thin and far too short girl's shorts offered to me, I chose to wear jeans all through the summer, every summer, until I was nearly twenty. I never necessarily felt the need for gender-neutral clothes; I just wished what was considered 'male' could be considered gender-neutral instead. I didn't want to wear cargo shorts and polo shirts because they were masculine, I just liked them and I didn't see why they had to be limited to boys.

Bringing your parents to a counselling session may actually be a good idea! That way, if things go south, you at least know that you have one ally in your counsellor. Though, it sounds like your father would be on your side too. It is often easier though to talk to important people like this when you have a mediator in the room. I'd suggest giving it a shot :)

My counsellor seemed to think it was a good idea as well. I'm visiting my parents tomorrow night. Hopefully I'll have found my chutzpah by then and we can talk about it ^_^

[Ace_Kat]

Whenever I looked in the mirror, when my chest started to grow (aka puberty), I did not like it. I did not like the look/feel of breasts. I don't feel like a girl, but I don't feel like a boy either. I sometimes wish I was born without breasts and without reproductive organs (I hate getting periods :( ) this sounds weird, but I never really liked being a girl, but I don't want to be a boy either.

I know how you feel. That seems to be where I am right now as well. A few days ago, I was thinking how awful it was to not have triceps. Today, I was reflecting on how miserable I would have been growing up as a boy. Constant competition, worthless aggression, not being able to cry in public - I'm honestly starting to feel more and more comfortable in this body. I still want to dress in male clothes, though. That never changes.

I started puberty fairly early. I got my first period at 11, and had already started to grow breasts by the time I turned 10. I often wore two T-shirts to school in order to hide them. I was never bullied; though, as is typical throughout my life, my mother asked me to stop and took me shopping for lace-ridden bras instead. I resisted wearing shorts after that as well, for a number of reasons - the new distribution of fat on my body made me think my thighs were too big, which in turn was partly because of the myriad neuroses about eating that my mother imparted onto me, also because I was not allowed to shop for sensible boy's shorts that covered what I thought of as a problem; instead of wearing the tissue-thin and far too short girl's shorts offered to me, I chose to wear jeans all through the summer, every summer, until I was nearly twenty. I never necessarily felt the need for gender-neutral clothes; I just wished what was considered 'male' could be considered gender-neutral instead. I didn't want to wear cargo shorts and polo shirts because they were masculine, I just liked them and I didn't see why they had to be limited to boys.

That must be hard. Sorry to hear that you have to go through that. I also have body image problems too. I hope that you will be able to wear whatever you want and your mom will stop making you wear clothes you don't want to wear.

Sorry for messing up the reply look