Masturbation

[Xenon]

It may be for some people. But certainly not for everyone.

Not once did I say it was, nor did I try to imply it. But im glad we agree on something.

The way you phrased your earlier argument, it certainly sounded like you were saying that this applied to everyone, or nearly so. Methinks you overstate you case.

[Jesse]

Wee_Little_Me and all no i'm not Asexual. yes i know that it feels good after it, and all the rest of it. but for how long? you come down and that coming down is not so good. you need another fix of it after a while, its adictive as drugs (not that i have done them). simular to like shopping you feel good after you puchased somthing, (yes a diffrent type of feeling good) but the prinsaples the same. theres a high then a low (over a period of time) i'm not saying sex is bad or anything but i'm looking at the more long term effects on values. and it is suggested in a 2005 study by Tim Kasser et el, that spiritual & communial people are more happy and health, compared to poeple who are into material goals. AND spirital poeple is ussally a common reason for celibacy, and the study also suggested that the more material poeple also have more sex. and past studies looked at the well being of the two types of people. and the less materialistic ones were much happier and healther and all the rest of it, compared.

So there is good grounds in which to conduct the study.

[Mithril]

Jesse your study sounds really interesting, good luck with it.

Wow, I came in here with the intention of sharing my own experiences with masturbation, but the raging debates are just a little intimidating. Makes it feel awkward. *runs away from conflict shouting "I'm Switzerland, I'm neutral, I'm Switzerland, neutral, neutral,neutral"* -- *Finds corner, sits cross-legged, rocking back and forth, munching on purple cake *

[Wee_Little_Me]

It may be for some people. But certainly not for everyone.

Not once did I say it was' date=' nor did I try to imply it. But im glad we agree on something.[/quote']

The way you phrased your earlier argument, it certainly sounded like you were saying that this applied to everyone, or nearly so. Methinks you overstate you case.

Methinks you gravly missunderstood -- again.

yes i know that it feels good after it' date=' and all the rest of it. but for how long? you come down and that coming down is not so good. you need another fix of it after a while, its adictive as drugs (not that i have done them).[/quote']

*ahem* I hope you dont plan on putting "as addictive as drugs" anywhere if you want to be taken seriously. Every drung has their own level of addiction which also influences differently to different people. And there are TWO kinds of addiction: physical and mental. You might want to decide what kind of addiction sex is before you get on with this study of yours.

simular to like shopping you feel good after you puchased somthing, (yes a diffrent type of feeling good) but the prinsaples the same. theres a high then a low (over a period of time)

Compare how many people go shopping vs how many people are addicted to shopping. Once again, not exactly a comparison you want to be using if you want to be taken seriously. Or perhas thats exactly the comparison you should be using. From studies i have seen this would be the case. Many many people having sex, very very few addicted to sex (and even fewer have a condition that actually inables them from leading a normal life).

i'm not saying sex is bad or anything but i'm looking at the more long term effects on values.

I would love to know how you plan to show that sex is bad in the long-term. infact some of the 'oldest' cultures in the world credit their long life to sex. sex way into their 80's and 90's. Keeps them fit, keeps them healthy, keeps them emotionally high-spirited. You'll probably run into the problem of having to prove that sex has nothing to do with their lifespan.

and it is suggested in a 2005 study by Tim Kasser et el, that spiritual & communial people are more happy and health, compared to poeple who are into material goals.

Which....supports sex. Sex isnt material, its spiritual and emotional and physical. :roll:

AND spirital poeple is ussally a common reason for celibacy,

...no. Very few spiritual people are celibate. And celibate people are a different topic all together and one that you of all people dont want to get into. The history of the celebate isnt a posetive one.

and the study also suggested that the more material poeple also have more sex.

Clearly needing to fulfill their emotiona/spiritual/mental "quota" since their material values dont do it. And I could make up any number of reasons that would make perfect sence off the top of my head. I dont see the logic you're trying to present.

and past studies looked at the well being of the two types of people. and the less materialistic ones were much happier and healther and all the rest of it, compared.

Sex isnt materialistic. How is sex materialistic? How can you possibly compare them? If anything the study you have presented suggests that sex is GOOD, HEALTHY, and mentions NOTHING about its addictive qualities.

So there is good grounds in which to conduct the study.

:shock:

[spinneret]

wee_little_me, enough of the abusive fisking. You're creating a hostile environment discouraging actual discussion by being willfully ignorant and intentionally antagonistic. Enough is freakin' enough.

I don't just mean this thread, either.

[Jesse]

Very good Wee_Little_Me.

People who take spiritual practice seriously always include a life of celibacy i am not talking about people who go to church three times in there life, (birth Marriage, death) or toughs whom go one a week or something. or every Christmas. spirituality in this context is about self discovery and god discovery. These types of people are spiritual people and life's are different by following certain disciplines or practices.

The core of religious/spiritual esablishments, those who life by and uphold their organisation are celibate

The example of shopping was to get you to see from a different prospective.

In the study, sex was more apparent to thought who are materialistic then appose to toughs who do not

How does the study suggest sex is healthy, when materialistic ppl are less healthy physically and mentally ?

Celibacy in the past was seen as a very positive it;s only know people laugh at it. the past was very much religious based and in religion celibacy is/was honored. and i think you will find in the oldest cultures celibacy is too honored. and anyway celibate people look younger. especially those who have been throughout their life, everyone knows that!!

You need to read what i have said and be open when reading, instead of instantly going into judgment mode if you want to understand. other wise you will keep feeling anxious and feel you have to disprove.

(speaking about that past posts in particular)

spinneret hes not creating a hostile environment, it just makes it more exciting spinneret what you will find in life , if you have not already. something true to yourself that either befits yourself or others. people will take things out of context or become instruments to create obstacles, well know example martinluthaking and Gandhi they were doing things that they felt was true to themselves, both helped millions and both shot dead. but you see the context in which i;m coming from.

peace.lol

[spinneret]

spinneret hes not creating a hostile environment, it just makes it more exciting spinneret what you will find in life , if you have not already. something true to yourself that either befits yourself or others. people will take things out of context or become instruments to create obstacles, well know example martinluthaking and Gandhi they were doing things that they felt was true to themselves, both helped millions and both shot dead. but you see the context in which i;m coming from.

peace.lol

Take a look at Mithril's post above. That's indicative, to me, of a hostile environment. And like I said, it's not limited to this thread.

No, I actually have no idea what point you're trying to make with Martin Luther King Jr. or Mohandas Gandhi, nor what "context [you're] coming from." Frankly I can't make sense of much of anything you say either, but at least you're not hostile. Condescending, yes.

[deladangerous]

I had no intention of participating in this discussion, but I have to step in and say that I'm with spinneret-- there never should have been any need to yell in this of all threads, and what it has turned into... "exciting" ain't the word.

When people can't even contribute to civil discussion in here (or any thread) without feeling as though they'll have to walk on eggshells, it's not a good sign.

So... Everybody chill? Please?

[Jesse]

yes yes i;m aware was just lightening things.... badly.lol

[Wee_Little_Me]

Celibacy in the past was seen as a very positive it;s only know people laugh at it. the past was very much religious based and in religion celibacy is/was honored. and i think you will find in the oldest cultures celibacy is too honored. and anyway celibate people look younger. especially those who have been throughout their life, everyone knows that!!

:?

Yes yes thats all well and good, its the cause of the celebacy that im after. Orgy's, pedaphelia, rape, sexual repression. There are a lot of TERRIBLE sideffects acociated with celibacy all through history. Oh its looked as a great thing. However there is a very dark side to it.

spinneret hes not creating a hostile environment,

pst. Im a woman. ;)

And Im quite happy you dont view my posting as hostile. Thats not my intention at all. XD youre awsome!

[Xenon]

When people can't even contribute to civil discussion in here (or any thread) without feeling as though they'll have to walk on eggshells, it's not a good sign.

So... Everybody chill? Please?

MODERATOR POST:

What she said. (And thanks, Dela. This is along the lines of what I would have posted had I been here earlier...)

So, let's keep things civil and tone down the rhetoric just a bit, okay? Thanks.

[oneofthesun]

Enforced celibacy does cause huge problems. The Catholic Church is just one example. Years ago I read an article about rape being very common among the Amish... Yes that's right, the Amish. The article said that a lot teenage Amish boys rape their sisters. Since their religion believes in total forgiveness the girls' parents tell them they must forgive their brother and so he can continue doing it all he wants.

[Wee_Little_Me]

Enforced celibacy does cause huge problems. The Catholic Church is just one example. Years ago I read an article about rape being very common among the Amish... Yes that's right, the Amish. The article said that a lot teenage Amish boys rape their sisters. Since their religion believes in total forgiveness the girls' parents tell them they must forgive their brother and so he can continue doing it all he wants.

Yesm. There was a big long TV thing about some sisters comming out about that. The brothers were charged with rape but the Amish community thought that the judge was being an idiot, their beliefes dictate that they are forgiven, and the people of the Devils Playground (us) are so horrible for putting them in jail and blah blah.

Yes celibacy has a very dark side indeed.

[Jesse]

Wee_Little_Me what do you mean there are side effects of celibacy? that is hardly a side effect. people who are celibate don't end up raping etc...

if people do all that sort of stuff then they are not celibate. refer back to my point about heads of religions.

Celibacy in my books is not to perform any sexual behaviours including masturbation, people who claimed to be celibate and end up doing that, probably did masturbate and/or have erotic thoughts, and your thoughts (which would implying that they do not want to be celibate ) after time, results in some form of actions related to your thoughts. that goes with most things e.g. Thought "i want to be a doctor" Action "take steps in becoming a doctor study etc". the more time you invest in the thoughts the higher probability of that coming into action. so going back to the point, so they were mostly being celibate just for show and not out a honest heart.

These people are in a minority compared to the number of people who also are celibate. monks, nuns, Buddhists-monks, sanyasis etc. and tend to live away from Society

And i am not surprised that there are people end up being bad eggs, in places celibacy is called a practice or study (depending were you look) implying that it;s not like going to your aunties home. just look media and the way people dress. "everywhere" you go, we are in some shape or form bombarded with lust/sex.

so i can see were your point of view. again the majority don't end up doing that sort of stuff. if you were to ask a million people so stay celibate for five year or even one year or 5 weeks only a handful would probably be able to abstain, and i also mean not to even think about it. you can ask yourself that question.

peace

[Xenon]

if you were to ask a million people so stay celibate for five year or even one year or 5 weeks only a handful would probably be able to abstain, and i also mean not to even think about it. you can ask yourself that question.

Why am I suddenly reminded of the "Master of Your Domain" episode of Seinfeld? :lol:

[Shockwave]

Why am I suddenly reminded of the "Master of Your Domain" episode of Seinfeld? :lol:

Probably for the same reason I was also.

[Jesse]

Seinfeld, i have heard of that but don't watch it.

Even if it was in episode of Seinfeld it;s still a relevant comment.

p.s. Wee_Little_Me. Something that i had remembered about celibacy resulting in "odd" behaviours (rape etc). so the same side effect but be of having sex too right? because i'm sure that there are more people who have sex and have also performed "odd" behaviours, compared. right? so SHOCKING REALISATION! this must mean a side effect of sex must be ... must be... if you have sex you also end up raping etc .lol. seriously now. And anyway if we were start making irrational comments it;s more likely you would end up performing the "odd" behaviour if you have had sex. logically thinking about it. if have not experienced / had something why would you want it/do it. you are more likely to want something after having it already. like when you go to a restaurant, you are more likely to order something you have already had, appose to something you have never had ( Wee_Little_Me this just an example okay!! not comparing the two lol ;) When someone who has not had sexual experience and also made that conscious wish to remain celibate, why would they perform "odd" behaviours. especially to those extremes. someone who has had sexual experiences is statically much more likely to commit them sorts of behaviours. That guy who raped his sister was no doubt would have been masturbating and/or involved with pornographic material. and i dont think it was he even wanted to be ceibate. but was born into a family with that as his values, mind you that does sound odd. why would a family be celibate (mother and father have sex 4 children = family)..hmm you sure celibacy was in their culture? or was it just abstancance which is diffrent to celibacy. abstancance tends to be celibacy untill marrage pr sex for just children,however propper celibacy is more of a life long thing, including not having children.

peace

[Wee_Little_Me]

Wee_Little_Me what do you mean there are side effects of celibacy? that is hardly a side effect. people who are celibate don't end up raping etc...

Thats the thing. They do. Take a look at the history of the celibate. It DOES have a dark side. They DO rape. They DO have orgy's. Sure, asexuals can go their lives without having sex with no problems. The sexually active who decide to do it end up destroying themselves physically, emotionally, and spiritually. The IDEA of celibate is excellent. However it doesnt work very well in practice.

Something that i had remembered about celibacy resulting in "odd" behaviours (rape etc). so the same side effect but be of having sex too right? because i'm sure that there are more people who have sex and have also performed "odd" behaviours, compared. right? so SHOCKING REALISATION! this must mean a side effect of sex must be ... must be... if you have sex you also end up raping etc

No. When I said 'odd behaviour' (did i actually say that?) it has to do with the anguis a sexual person goes through when they are forced into celibacy (through their own choice, or influence, or whatever). But the problem is not that they arent having sex. The problem is not that they are sexually frustrated. The problem is that because they arent having sex they are sexually frustrated, and because they are sexually frustrated they end up raping. Its happened all through history. Celibacy doesnt sit well with the sexuals. I doubt there is a single 'celibate' person who has managed abstained from sex and masterbation for the rest of their lives. It just doesnt happen.

The church created this 'celibate' idiocy to keep money within the church. If people who ran the chuch started having kids than their dvotion would also be to the kids, money would move down to them, be split up amongst them, it just wouldnt work very well. Sexual humans are not ment ot abstain from sex. There are dangerous sideffects. Its happened all through history, it continues to happen, and is very dangerous.

[Jesse]

hello Wee_Little_Me

"that's the thing. They do. Take a look at the history of the celibate. It DOES have a dark side. They DO rape. They DO have orgy's"

i think your not quite right on that one. because they do not. there millions who are celibate, monks nuns, other religious and spiritual people . and i know quite a large number of people both males and females whom have been celibate for either a large proportion of their lifes or their whole lives across the world, out of choice. i dont know why you are thinking this, but that just does not happen. perhaps in the church institution, which i probably a minority. but what about the rest of the world? in other culture.

that just does not happen and again your not reading what i'm saying

and celibacy does work, it can be lived and may do. what about monks and nuns ???? and sanyasi's???

i dont understand why you are saying it does not work when there are millions who are celibate. why do you say that they DO end up doing "odd" stuff. because it just does not happen. more the half my friends must be rapists and orgy lovers then :P

You making small things from the past into a mountain and read what i said again and PROPPERLY!!! :)

peace

[oneofthesun]

I think Wee and I are talking about enforced celibacy, i.e. being a member of a culture or group that expects you to remain celibate - If not for life that at least for a long period of time. What I meant was that trying to make people celebrate who don't want to be always backfires.

[Jesse]

oneofthesun and all , lol then yes perhase enforced celibacy may result in them odd behaviours which i did say that it had to be out of ones own personal choice.

But thats not exactly relavent to my study either, or have anything to do with what i have been saying.lol and i'm not proposing to make everyone celibate either by comparing the two...it's ment to simply will show a contrast.

poeple get getting side tracked i think it;s time to call it a day on this discussion...

[Wee_Little_Me]

i dont know why you are thinking this, but that just does not happen.

What is the 'profession' that turns out the largest number of pedaphiles?

Its not construction worker, pychiatrist, teacher, icecream truck driver, it is church institutions. People who have vowed to celebacy. That is a fact. And it cant be a coincidence that most pedaphiles through history have been celibate, yet most people through history have not been celibate.

I think Wee and I are talking about enforced celibacy, i.e. being a member of a culture or group that expects you to remain celibate - If not for life that at least for a long period of time. What I meant was that trying to make people celebrate who don't want to be always backfires.

Well yes. Its one thing to CHOOSE celibacy and then not be celibate when you feel you dont want it any more; its another to be celibate because of beliefs/culture. Disasteroius.

[Jesse]

lol this is just becoming comical.

Teacher, ice cream truck driver since when do they vow this.

this is new to me.lol

well tell who ever is telling you this to ask teachers and truck drivers if the take vows of celibacy.lol

but again on serious note, it has be done out of a true heart, so they do it because they want to do it, not out of show.

if you are going to carry on make nonsense comments i'm not going to be taking part in this discussion. but it is quite funny.

[ghosts]

She actually said that it's not those professions, it's the church institutions.

Its not construction worker, pychiatrist, teacher, icecream truck driver, it is church institutions.

[Xenon]

She actually said that it's not those professions, it's the church institutions.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing some stats or something to back up that assertion. Plus keep in mind that it's only the Catholic Church that has its clergy remain celibate...

[ghosts]

::shrugs:: Yeah, I'm not sure how accurate it is either, Torgo. It would be interesting to see some stats on that.

[UglymanCometh]

Masturbation? What's that?

okay, okay... I know what it is, I just don't participate in it. Like a rhyme in one of my poems go:

"Masturbate?... Naw, I'm straight...."

[Jesse]

Appolagies sorry about that We little and everyone else,

but okay then again it also comes down to whether they actually wanted to be celibate or not, everyone can make a Vow. they might of just wanted the job, to do the services and everything else church people do, but that.

but yes i'm not sure whether that it;s mainly churchers that do "odd" stuff.

i don't think anything to do with a profession , or they could have even got the job just to do the "odd" stuff. never know.

and it also comes back down to the quality of churchers who do that, i;m sure it;s just a small minority.

[Brodertun]

well tell who ever is telling you this to ask teachers and truck drivers if the take vows of celibacy.lol

Teacher here. I've never taken a vow of celibacy and I've never been asked to either.

[Jesse]

Triple A, there was a misunderstanding, if read further down from that post.