why is celibacy so objectionable?

[binary suns]

there are some asexuals who have partnered sex. and those asexuals are not only capable of choosing to engage in partnered sex, they are choosing so.

But what is choice? When we are faced with a decision, we choose one option and take it. That is choice. Decisions are made on the margin, sure, but in order to make a decision, we must desire the outcome. We could walk away from the decision if we do not. So, while it feels uncomfortable to say that some asexuals desire sex, we could still see the choice to be with a partner and have sex with them, in a sense, a desire. It is not our motivation to have sex that is the desire, but something causes us to accept, to choose, to want, the outcome.

when it comes to celibacy, there is a person who desires sex, but chooses not to have it, sure. but why would we say someone desires sex, when they are by choice not taking the action? They are experiencing desire to not have sex, too, after all... and it is the desire to abstain that wins over the desire to engage.

So, why is it that celibacy isn't asexuality? I think that we should embrace celibacy under our flag. It is important to have someone understand that we are not abstaining, but that we don't feel the desire in the first place... but we do not need to shun celibacy by doing so.

[Vega91]

Because people who are celibate can still feel sexual attraction. They may feel that other things (such as their faith) are more important to them than sex, but that doesn't stop them from feeling the attraction in the first place. It's like when the university cafe has some really delicious looking pastries. I may choose to abstain from eating the pastries due to a desire to eat "healthy" or to save money, but I still feel the desire for the cake. That's different from someone who doesn't even want the cake in the first place; the outcome may be the same, but our reasons for it are completely different.

In short, celibacy isn't an orientation, it's a behavior or an ideology. That's not to say celibate people can't identify with some of the issues aces also face, of course, and some celibate people can get support from the ace community. But that doesn't make them aces.

[Midnight Star]

I don't consider it objectionable. It's not my place to tell others how to live. I just don't think it's the same thing.

[the bumbling rotifer]

In some ways I agree with you, Teagan, that we should perhaps embrace celibacy under our flag: after all, celibate people might encounter many of the same issues in life that people on the asexual spectrum experience.

I can, however, forsee potential issues of including celibacy in our flag. In particular, it could undermine our visibility efforts to some degree: people might find it easier to make the assumption that we are all celibate, rather than wrapping their heads around the concept of asexuality. We might also be viewed with greater suspicion, as people may fear that we would try to "recruit" others to our cause.

I'll be interested to see what other people think about this matter :).

[Scottthespy]

Much like a gay man CAN have sex with a woman (either to hide his sexuality or because he doesnt realize he's gay) without that making him straight. Actions do not equal orientation.

[Guest]

Celibacy is a behavior not orientation but it can fall under queer umbrella as well as it's something different than hetero normativity but I mean just lifetime or partial celibacy not just abstinence till marriage because it's connected more with religious believes than personal choice.

[Prairie]

A heterosexual who is celibate is still heterosexual. Likewise for a homosexual. If you use desire in a very general sense of "whatever you choose to do you desired it" then someone choosing to have sex desires it. But if you use desire as some direct drive for something, distinct from choices which are merely strategies which take countless desires into account (including the desire to give others enjoyment even if it means some discomfort for oneself), then someone choosing sex might not desire it at all, just as someone could choose to have sex "outside" their orientation yet still have that orientation.

[5_♦♣]

Taking celibacy under our wings would just reinforce the Asexuality=celibacy myth.

[Guest]

Celibacy just means not having sex.

Some people don't have sex and don't desire to have it. That's part of asexuality.

Some people don't have sex but do desire to have it. That's not part of asexuality.

Some people do have sex but don't desire to have it. That's part of asexuality.

Some people do have sex and do desire to have it. That's not part of asexuality.

Simple four-quadrant sorting, really. ;) Because the only relevant question for asexuality is whether you feel the desire for partnered sex (which some people - unneccessarily complicating thing, IMO - call "sexual attraction"), not whether you have partnered sex.

[Valar Morghulis]

Well they are sexual, dont see wh ythey would call themselves something other than sexuals, sounds a bit out there.

[Guest]

So, why is it that celibacy isn't asexuality?

Teagan I think you may just be a little confused over terminology?

Or..

Maybe you are an asexual who desires and enjoys sex yet for some reason chooses not to have it? (that's not really the actual definition of asexuality at all, that IS celibacy, but if you choose to label yourself as asexual anyway, that's up to you to decide) but for many asexuals it isn't a choice. There is no choice in the matter. We literally don't want partnered sex, so we don't have it. Asexuals who fall under this category would suffer mentally, emotionally, and even physically sometimes, if they forced themselves to have sex. See how that's not a choice? That's forcing oneself to do something that hurts one, just to try and make someone else (ie a sexual partner) happy. So HOW can someone go and say ''you're just choosing not to have sex, you could physically have sex if you wanted to, so you're celibate, not asexual'' .. See how it would be utter identity erasure of these asexuals, if celibacy was included under our flag?

.. Of course there are plenty of asexuals who can have sex without physical, mental, or emotional harm happening to them because of it, but does that mean they are just 'practically' celibate, purely for not choosing to have sex just because it won't damage them in some way? That's ridiculous. They are asexual, not celibate. They don't desire the partnered sex in the first place.

That's the difference between celibacy and asexuality, as everyone else had said.

Celibacy is a choice (though sometimes it is forced upon people, they still desire partnered sex but for whatever reason they can't have it) Asexuality is not a choice, it is a sexual orientation. We aren't choosing to be asexual, we ARE asexual.

Saying asexuality, like celibacy, is a choice, or that they are pretty much the same thing, or very similar, is like saying homosexuality is just a choice, because a homosexual person could physically have sex with someone of the opposite gender, but choose not to. That would be total identity erasure of all homosexual people pretty much.

Just because some asexuals choose to partake in partnered sex, maybe even enjoy it, doesn't make the rest of us celibate by default. It's actually very offensive (to me anyway) that you would suggest that (and yes I get that you weren't actually saying asexuality and celibacy are the same thing, but you were saying that asexuality and celibacy are similar enough that celibate sexual people should be included under the Asexual flag)

There are forums and blogs for celibacy support, celibate sexual people should be embraced there, but not under the asexuality flag as ''one of us'' .. Sure everyone is welcome here, but that doesn't mean they are asexual just because they are welcome here.

To be asexual, you need to be, well, you know, asexual. Not a sexual person who is choosing not to have sex.

there are some asexuals who have partnered sex. and those asexuals are not only capable of choosing to engage in partnered sex, they are choosing so.

So, while it feels uncomfortable to say that some asexuals desire sex, we could still see the choice to be with a partner and have sex with them, in a sense, a desire. It is not our motivation to have sex that is the desire, but something causes us to accept, to choose, to want, the outcome.

As an asexual person who in the past chose to give a sexual partner sex every day for 5 years (I didn't know about asexuality, I just knew that every fiber of my being didn't want sex) I find the above sentence feels, again, a lot like identity erasure of many asexuals. I desired the outcome of having a happy partner, not sex. We give our sexual partners sex out of a desire to make them happy, not because we personally desire partnered sex ourselves. (Yes I am aware there is some controversy over this issue as there are some asexuals here who say they do desire sex, even have sex with their asexual partners, but I am speaking for the vast majority of asexuals that do not desire sex and only give it to please our partners/to try fit in/to try to look 'normal' etc, not out of a desire to actually have partnered sex for the sake of sex itself)

Just to be doubly clear, I have had a lot of sex, but never once have I done so out of a desire to have partnered sex. It's the desire for sex that a celibate person is denying themselves: They have that desire, they choose to deny it though (or as I said previously, in some cases are forced to deny it) ..The vast majority of asexual people do not have the luxury of being able to make that choice. I say luxury because for many of us (romantic asexuals especially) we would give ANYTHING to be able to want sex the way our romantic partner/potential romantic partners want it, and in so doing, give them the thing that they desire and often feel we are denying them out of a lack of love for them..

For many of us, life and relationships especially would be so much easier if we desired sex the way that other people do. Celibacy is a luxury, something that sexual people can choose. Asexuality is a sexual orientation, it's there, and if you're asexual, you just have to find a way to live with it.

In conclusion: Asexuality and Celibacy are such vastly different experiences that no, they should not EVER be included under the same flag. End of story.

[Howard]

As a general rule, celibacy should not be included under the asexual umbrella. There is an exception where behavior and desire would de facto make a celibate fall under the asexual umbrella.

Let's say a celibate chooses to identify as an asexual. He doesn't act on his attractions. We can not see his true desires, only his behavior. Who would be able to say he is not asexual, unless he acts on his attracrions?

If the cap fits, let them wear it. I think asking too many questions can be a form of elitism. If someone behaves like an asexual and says he's one, it's fine by me.

[Prairie]

Let's say a celibate chooses to identify as an asexual. He doesn't act on his attractions. We can not see his true desires, only his behavior. Who would be able to say he is not asexual, unless he acts on his attracrions?

Himself. The only one who can possibly know whether one is asexual is oneself.

[Philip027]

So, why is it that celibacy isn't asexuality?

Simply put, because celibacy is celibacy. Anyone can be not having sex. It isn't anything special on its own.

when it comes to celibacy, there is a person who desires sex, but chooses not to have it, sure. but why would we say someone desires sex, when they are by choice not taking the action? They are experiencing desire to not have sex, too, after all... and it is the desire to abstain that wins over the desire to engage.

I would say, almost universally in cases like these, that there isn't a "desire" to not have sex. The desire is for sex. Logic and rational thinking is what's grounding them not to do it. Like they're kicking themselves, but they know the "right" thing to do is to abstain.

It's the same sort of thing that's going on when you're at the store and you see a nice, delicious, fattening chocolate cake for sale. One's desire would be for the cake (and aces in particular might know how tempting that desire is :lol: ). However, their rational side might cause them not to get it, either because they need to watch their health, or their wallet, or what have you.

[Sally]

Desire to have sex is a feeling, a physical/emotional feeling.

Celibacy is a decision not to engage in an action.

[binary suns]

one person, reptillian maybe, pointed out that desire is both... intrinsic and extrinsic... that someone will desire intrinsically (attraction) or extrinsically. Whenever someone is repulsed by sex, we accept them into the asexual umbrella without batting an eye, yet there are people who do experience sexual attraction but are repulsed. how is celibacy so different?

[binary suns]

celibacy is not just a decision not to engage in the action. if some bloke comes up to some dude and says " dude wanna have sex" and the dude goes "nah bloke I don't really know you yet." that doesnt make the dude celibate. and some people don't choose celibacy, but rather a lifestyle that requires celibacy.. they accept celibacy as a restriction to the lifestyle they want. they don't choose celibacy, you see?

the thing is, that celibacy is something someone is dedicated to, something that is not "just a decision" but much more than that.

[binary suns]

Well they are sexual, dont see wh ythey would call themselves something other than sexuals, sounds a bit out there.

they do call themselves something other than that - they call themselves celibate. if they meet a life partner, it is a key part of their orientation.

[Robin L]

I believe you are confusing "desire" and "want". You don't have to desire something to do it. An asexual may want sex, but they don't desire it. A celibate person desires sex, but don't want to engage in it for reasons.

[binary suns]

So, why is it that celibacy isn't asexuality?

Teagan I think you may just be a little confused over terminology?

Or..

Maybe you are an asexual who desires and enjoys sex yet for some reason chooses not to have it? (that's not really the actual definition of asexuality at all, that IS celibacy, but if you choose to label yourself as asexual anyway, that's up to you to decide) but for many asexuals it isn't a choice. There is no choice in the matter. We literally don't want partnered sex, so we don't have it. Asexuals who fall under this category would suffer mentally, emotionally, and even physically sometimes, if they forced themselves to have sex. See how that's not a choice? That's forcing oneself to do something that hurts one, just to try and make someone else (ie a sexual partner) happy. So HOW can someone go and say ''you're just choosing not to have sex, you could physically have sex if you wanted to, so you're celibate, not asexual'' .. See how it would be utter identity erasure of these asexuals, if celibacy was included under our flag?

.. Of course there are plenty of asexuals who can have sex without physical, mental, or emotional harm happening to them because of it, but does that mean they are just 'practically' celibate, purely for not choosing to have sex just because it won't damage them in some way? That's ridiculous. They are asexual, not celibate. They don't desire the partnered sex in the first place.

That's the difference between celibacy and asexuality, as everyone else had said.

Celibacy is a choice (though sometimes it is forced upon people, they still desire partnered sex but for whatever reason they can't have it) Asexuality is not a choice, it is a sexual orientation. We aren't choosing to be asexual, we ARE asexual.

Saying asexuality, like celibacy, is a choice, or that they are pretty much the same thing, or very similar, is like saying homosexuality is just a choice, because a homosexual person could physically have sex with someone of the opposite gender, but choose not to. That would be total identity erasure of all homosexual people pretty much.

Just because some asexuals choose to partake in partnered sex, maybe even enjoy it, doesn't make the rest of us celibate by default. It's actually very offensive (to me anyway) that you would suggest that (and yes I get that you weren't actually saying asexuality and celibacy are the same thing, but you were saying that asexuality and celibacy are similar enough that celibate sexual people should be included under the Asexual flag)

There are forums and blogs for celibacy support, celibate sexual people should be embraced there, but not under the asexuality flag as ''one of us'' .. Sure everyone is welcome here, but that doesn't mean they are asexual just because they are welcome here.

To be asexual, you need to be, well, you know, asexual. Not a sexual person who is choosing not to have sex.

there are some asexuals who have partnered sex. and those asexuals are not only capable of choosing to engage in partnered sex, they are choosing so.

So, while it feels uncomfortable to say that some asexuals desire sex, we could still see the choice to be with a partner and have sex with them, in a sense, a desire. It is not our motivation to have sex that is the desire, but something causes us to accept, to choose, to want, the outcome.

As an asexual person who in the past chose to give a sexual partner sex every day for 5 years (I didn't know about asexuality, I just knew that every fiber of my being didn't want sex) I find the above sentence feels, again, a lot like identity erasure of many asexuals. I desired the outcome of having a happy partner, not sex. We give our sexual partners sex out of a desire to make them happy, not because we personally desire partnered sex ourselves. (Yes I am aware there is some controversy over this issue as there are some asexuals here who say they do desire sex, even have sex with their asexual partners, but I am speaking for the vast majority of asexuals that do not desire sex and only give it to please our partners/to try fit in/to try to look 'normal' etc, not out of a desire to actually have partnered sex for the sake of sex itself)

Just to be doubly clear, I have had a lot of sex, but never once have I done so out of a desire to have partnered sex. It's the desire for sex that a celibate person is denying themselves: They have that desire, they choose to deny it though (or as I said previously, in some cases are forced to deny it) ..The vast majority of asexual people do not have the luxury of being able to make that choice. I say luxury because for many of us (romantic asexuals especially) we would give ANYTHING to be able to want sex the way our romantic partner/potential romantic partners want it, and in so doing, give them the thing that they desire and often feel we are denying them out of a lack of love for them..

For many of us, life and relationships especially would be so much easier if we desired sex the way that other people do. Celibacy is a luxury, something that sexual people can choose. Asexuality is a sexual orientation, it's there, and if you're asexual, you just have to find a way to live with it.

In conclusion: Asexuality and Celibacy are such vastly different experiences that no, they should not EVER be included under the same flag. End of story.

I am asexual. but talking about whether or not i desire partnered sex is very not so straight and narrow... it's a little deeper than I'm comfortable talking about. but the simple version of it is, that I am libido'd but can't enjoy self-stimulation, however have found that I can (tho not always) enjoy sex. but I'm not talking about myself, I was just thinking of this because someone joined the forums and said they were asexual then described celibacy. and when I read their post, I worried that people might come in and quite roughly tell them essentially "you don't belong here" and I didn't think that would be right.

I'm not trying to say that a celibate person is an asexual person, but rather that there should be a place under the umbrella. I am assuming that most of you would say if asked, if asked "is a demisexual an asexual" you would say "no but they are under the asexual umbrella" a demi or grey sexual does experience attraction, and an asexual does not. how can someone celibate not be seen as something quite alike someone who is grey?

I wasn't trying to say that all asexuals can choose to have sex, I was just trying to show a line of thinking where some asexuals desire sex... I did not word it very well. but seeing reptillians post since then, i can say it better, that an asexual can be seen as someone who doesn't intrinsically desire partnered sex, and some asexuals for various reasons extrinsically desire it. so there is desire, but it isn't intrinsic desire.

[binary suns]

I believe you are confusing "desire" and "want". You don't have to desire something to do it. An asexual may want sex, but they don't desire it. A celibate person desires sex, but don't want to engage in it for reasons.

even if this were true, I still stand by my argument. I'm not trying to say that celibacy is asexuality at all. I just feel that someone who is celibate might want to seek out similar people. and sure, their reason for being sex-free is different from an asexual's.... but they will still struggle with similar challenges when trying to find people to hang out with. sure, they could just go to a celibacy forum, but I really feel like that sort of thinking is unacceptable. I would never tell someone to "just go to another form", and anyway there aren't only asexual people on this forum. there are already sexual partners, and demisexuals and grey sexuals... and I can think of one person who is sexual but for reasons wishes never to have sex again. they haven't called themselves celibate... but I see no reason to like that person any more or any less based off their orientation or other labels.

[binary suns]

duplicate post, ignore

[Guest]

There are sex repulsed *sexual* people, yes..they find sex disgusting and still do it because they desire it, or don't do it, and feel miserable because of that: They still innately *want* partnered sex, they just have to fight that urge because they are so overwhelmed by repulsion for it.

I have only met a few people like that here, and they generally leave (or are removed) pretty fast. One example was a now banned member saying that sex is filthy and disgusting and we need to fight our urges to have it no matter how much that hurts us, no matter how much we suffer because of it, no matter how empty we feel inside without sex, because we cannot give in to our filthy animal urges to play with each others "smelly, dirty genitals" blah blah.. He was clearly deeply, deeply disgusted by partnered sex, but still *needed* it to the extent that he was suffering every day for not having it, feeling empty and miserable without sex ..That is one example of a repulsed sexual who came to AVEN, and left very quickly realizing actually no, this was not the place for them, because asexuals are not people who want sex but are forcing ourselves not to have it, we just don't have an innate desire for it that we have to deny. Many of us even still *have* sex, for various reasons.. We just don't suffer personally at all when we don't have it (actually, the vast majority of us are happiest *without* sex)

Repulsed *asexuals* are repulsed by sex *and* they have no *innate desire to seek sex out with another person* (ie no sexual attraction) .. does that make sense? I'm just trying to illustrate the differences between repulsed *sexual* people and repulsed *asexual* people.

Also, people here who desire sex with other people (sexual attraction) but not strongly enough to act on it (because in this case maybe their repulsion is just so strong that they don't miss sex at all and are not suffering for not having it) would fall under the grey area of the spectrum. They still experience sexual attraction, just not to the extent that they wish to act on it or feel any real stress or anxiety for not acting on it.

And no I'm not saying repulsed sexual people or celibate people should not be welcome on AVEN (as long as they follow the ToS) I'm just saying that no, they should not, they should never be, included under the label ASEXUAL or the asexual flag because they are not, at all, asexual. Celibate yes, some of them may even me gray-a (ie falls in the gray area between asexuality and sexuality in which case yes that IS ace spectrum) as I pointed out, but not *A-sexual* if all they are is a celibate sexual who desires sex but is choosing not to have it.

EDIT: God I'm on my annoying phone (hate doing forums on my phone) I was replying to your first comment today, and now that I've posted my reply I see you made like 8 more replies while I was writing it, I'm going to have to get on my comp later and quote the specific part I was replying to, to avoid confusion, as well as reply to your other comments.

[binary suns]

There are sex repulsed *sexual* people, yes..they find sex disgusting and still do it because they desire it, or don't do it, and feel miserable because of that: They still innately *want* partnered sex, they just have to fight that urge because they are so overwhelmed by repulsion for it.

I have only met a few people like that here, and they generally leave (or are removed) pretty fast. One example was a now banned member saying that sex is filthy and disgusting

not everyone who is sex repulsed and experience sexual attraction is going to be that extreme. I don't really want to discuss it because I know people will flame me left and right for it, but I suspect that sex repulsed people with sexual attraction is more common that we realize. not every sexual person I've met is hyper charged for sex, after all...

Repulsed *asexuals* are repulsed by sex *and* they have no *innate desire to seek sex out with another person* (ie no sexual attraction) .. does that make sense? I'm just trying to illustrate the differences between repulsed *sexual* people and repulsed *asexual* people.

yup makes sense :) I just can imagine a person, who is repulsed by sex.. and does not really care to ask if they intrinsically desire it. once they know it's ok to not want sex, they have no need to question themselves. maybe their romantic attraction takes charge, and any sexual desires are only interpretted as repulsion to sexual content. or something, idk, I'm throwing ideas out here, etc...

And no I'm not saying repulsed sexual people or celibate people should not be welcome on AVEN (as long as they follow the ToS) I'm just saying that no, they should not, they should never be, included under the label ASEXUAL or the asexual flag because they are not, at all, asexual. Celibate yes, some of them may even me gray-a (ie falls in the gray area between asexuality and sexuality) as I pointed out, but not *A-sexual*

I really can't see an argument that validly puts grey and demi under the asexual flag but not celibacy or sex-repulsed sexuals. all four people are people who do or can feel sexual attraction, and so are not asexual. so why do we embrace two under our flag, but not four? it feels like the same thing that LGBTQ+ is doing to us, at times....

[LenaLuthor]

The reason celibacy is objectionable is because it doesn't fit the bullshit construction of what is "normal".

[Robin L]

I really can't see an argument that validly puts grey and demi under the asexual flag but not celibacy or sex-repulsed sexuals. all four people are people who do or can feel sexual attraction, and so are not asexual. so why do we embrace two under our flag, but not four? it feels like the same thing that LGBTQ+ is doing to us, at times....

It's because gray-a/demi is an orientation, while celibacy is a choice.

[binary suns]

I really can't see an argument that validly puts grey and demi under the asexual flag but not celibacy or sex-repulsed sexuals. all four people are people who do or can feel sexual attraction, and so are not asexual. so why do we embrace two under our flag, but not four? it feels like the same thing that LGBTQ+ is doing to us, at times....

It's because gray-a/demi is an orientation, while celibacy is a choice.

the person who I was referring to was celibate due to sex repulsion. he didn't feel like it was a choice for him.

[Robin L]

I really can't see an argument that validly puts grey and demi under the asexual flag but not celibacy or sex-repulsed sexuals. all four people are people who do or can feel sexual attraction, and so are not asexual. so why do we embrace two under our flag, but not four? it feels like the same thing that LGBTQ+ is doing to us, at times....

It's because gray-a/demi is an orientation, while celibacy is a choice.

the person who I was referring to was celibate due to sex repulsion. he didn't feel like it was a choice for him.

Again, sex-repulsed sexuals still have a desire for sex, but do not wish to engage in it. I'll just refer to Pan's posts above.

I feel like this is arguing semantics instead of the concept.

[binary suns]

I don't think that I know what it's like to feel compelled to take an action, so I can't really say whether or not celibacy not being an orientation is valid. Isn't that odd?

[Prairie]

I've heard the term "involuntary celibacy" to describe people who desire sex but aren't having it due to external circumstances.