Article on "gentle platonic touch" between dudes :D

[ithaca]

I really enjoyed this article. It's not about asexuality, but it discusses the importance of platonic touch and affection between men.

http://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/touch-isolation-how-homophobia-has-robbed-all-men-of-touch/#.VRBskBzA-7A.facebook

[Mike D]

Outside of handshakes I never touch anyone deliberately, and people generally don't touch me, so I guess I'm doomed. And yet I feel zero desire to get physically close to anyone, male or female, for any reason. I'm not repulsed by touch so much as I'm disinterested in it (although I do actively dislike cuddling). Perhaps I've been conditioned as the article suggests, but if so, it runs so deep in me that it includes both genders.

[Theoryal]

Thank you for sharing that.

This is something that has concerned me since... I guess childhood, seeing how guys are starved of touch and thinking it's so ridiculous that I can walk arm-in-arm with my friends and nobody thinks it's weird but guys will get teased for things like that. The way affection, particularly for guys, has been so strongly connected with sex contributes to what I think is an unhealthy fixation on needing a romantic partner - since that's the only place you're allowed the kind of closeness many people (including guys) need - which in turn leads to a lot of feelings of loneliness and low self-esteem which I think could be greatly mitigated if they could just get some affection from friends and family.

I also think it creates for many people an unhealthy imbalance of affection always being a lead-in to sex, depriving some couples of the general affection and bonding they might want to experience through more extended non-sexual affection, rather than just resorting to sexual things whenever they want touch or closeness. I mean obviously most people do share plain affection, but... it just strikes me that there's an unbalanced push towards always progressing that way and that maybe people would be more content with more cuddles & massages etc. and a little less sex than they think they would be. I think it's probably particularly seen with younger relationships or at the beginning of relationships - with the message that affection = sexual desire in the back of their brain guys may feel uncomfortable or less sure of how to go about general affection and just default to sexual things, skipping some of the more tender interactions that the couple might have enjoyed and leading partners to feel more like all he wants them for is sex, because he doesn't really know how to communicate his affection in other ways (I know that's a bit of exaggeration).

I know everyone enjoys or values physical affection to varying degrees and some people may sincerely not need much of it, just as some people sincerely don't need a lot of social interaction to feel sane and satisfied. But I do feel like affection is an important/powerful way of connecting that can for many people have a deeper more lasting effect than other ways of communicating that you like or care about someone. Friendly affectionate touch can really reinforce the message that someone is here for you, it can create a feeling of connectedness, it can communicate acceptance of someone, it can provide a feeling of safety or comfort as very concrete knowledge that you are not alone. Touch is such a profound way to communicate, in my opinion, and it makes me so sad to see it so limited, to see people hurting from the lack of it.

[SpeckledAngel]

I really enjoyed that article! I immediately connected to it as well, despite being female.

I recently met some really cool women from various Asian countries (I am from the US and keep in mind that although I assume our respective cultures/families had something to do with it, idk), and after a short while of being generally awkward but still involved in the conversations they decided to invite me afterwards to go out shopping.

While walking around the shops, each of them at some point ended up trying to link arms with me. I thought that was great, a good sign towards friendship... but I had no idea how to react, and I've never been particularly prone to touching people other than family. Also, I admit, a bit of worry - did this arm linking somehow imply something that I was simply unfamiliar with?

I ended up just sort of holding my arm out a bit and not moving away, but something in my body language made each of them withdraw. I was saddened, feeling that I had subtly rejected their friendship unintentionally. I ended up watching two of them link arms and seeing the proper way to respond - close your own arm in the same way, of course! I tried this tactic as much as I was comfortable with and, huzzah, managed to walk comfortably with one of my new friends.

So the point of my short story is, I have felt that touch isolation thing myself and noticed some ramifications! Taking note of the right response and reassuring myself that it was alright helped, but I wish it had not been necessary. I am by no means inexperienced with friends, but none of my friends in the States ever initiated such casual touch. Although, most of them were male so perhaps not the best sample?

Alright, random story time over. Thank you for the link!

[ithaca]

I really enjoyed that article! I immediately connected to it as well, despite being female.

I recently met some really cool women from various Asian countries (I am from the US and keep in mind that although I assume our respective cultures/families had something to do with it, idk), and after a short while of being generally awkward but still involved in the conversations they decided to invite me afterwards to go out shopping.

While walking around the shops, each of them at some point ended up trying to link arms with me. I thought that was great, a good sign towards friendship... but I had no idea how to react, and I've never been particularly prone to touching people other than family. Also, I admit, a bit of worry - did this arm linking somehow imply something that I was simply unfamiliar with?

I ended up just sort of holding my arm out a bit and not moving away, but something in my body language made each of them withdraw. I was saddened, feeling that I had subtly rejected their friendship unintentionally. I ended up watching two of them link arms and seeing the proper way to respond - close your own arm in the same way, of course! I tried this tactic as much as I was comfortable with and, huzzah, managed to walk comfortably with one of my new friends.

So the point of my short story is, I have felt that touch isolation thing myself and noticed some ramifications! Taking note of the right response and reassuring myself that it was alright helped, but I wish it had not been necessary. I am by no means inexperienced with friends, but none of my friends in the States ever initiated such casual touch. Although, most of them were male so perhaps not the best sample?

Alright, random story time over. Thank you for the link!

Nice that you found new friends and managed to understand their body language :)

However, I think that the situation described in the article is different. It discusses how society at large has been shunning male platonic touch for a long time, and not the difficulties of understanding someone's platonic affection. It's a different thing, if you understand what I mean.

[Mike D]

The article does make sense, although in my case the coding was more about "being a gentleman" than anything overtly homophobic. A lot of it was just common sense: You don't get handsy with strangers, work mates, etc. In my particular upbringing, though, outside of handshakes and the occasional hug it was only OK to touch someone you were dating, and only once you were absolutely positive they were OK with it. This turned into a stumbling block as I was a very hands-off first date (and second date, and third date) and people would get the idea I wasn't interested at all. Lesson learned, although it doesn't matter now.

I do wonder about the science behind the health benefits notion, however. For the past year or so I've been hearing stories like this -- get more hugs, live longer, etc. -- but the popular press tends to take theories like this and run with them, no matter where they are in the peer review process. I confess, I rather hope it's not true, because I don't want to have to cuddle people to aid my longevity.

[whitesphere]

As a male, I would agree that it's very sad that men are so discouraged from affection through touch. That is one key thing I hope true gender equality can change.

I've read that, interestingly, in India it's precisely gender flipped. It's normal for men to walk arm in arm but women aren't supposed to.

However, I have never been emotionally close to men, possibly due to their own social conditioning. For example, if I cry at a touching movie scene, I can expect to be made fun of.

Also, I so deeply distrust other men that I feel fear from just about any touch from a man. And, otherwise, I just feel emotionally disconnected from it.

Personally, I would love if both men and women could express fondness through touch for friends and such, but that is a huge social change that might be in progress, but is a long way from being complete.

@Mike D

The science behind the "touch allows people to live longer" is the powerful stress reducing hormone oxytocin is produced by pleasant touch (hugs, cuddles, whatever), which helps strengthen bonds between people. Since humans have evolved to be to SOME degree social (people only survived in tribes), it makes sense that humans would thrive best around others.

[SpeckledAngel]

Ugh, just wrote a whole thing in response then backspaced off the page on accident ;-; Please excuse the lack of quoting because I am still failing at it. Basically, my point was that that experience was a particular example of how being raised to not have casual physical affection was not something I usually noticed/minded, until confronted with people who were raised to have it. I don't particularly dislike touch, nor am I particularly oblivious - I simply have never had anyone around me who interacted that way either with me or with other friends. I think I overemphasized the confusion in my original storytelling, apologies. I was too excited to share, I suppose!

[rmnt]

Male affection is the fucking GREATEST THING EVER. Too bad it's FUCKING PROHIBITED in this fucked up, misandric, homophobic society... I've always wanted and needed it so, so badly, and have never had it at all... :(

[uRBAN_Spaceman]

As a man I can say I've never felt deprived of anything I wanted in this life. Even though this article was very well written and even had a few things I hadn't thought about before in it... I still just don't agree with this article or articles that cover a similar topic. I feel like these articles are more a cry for attention by the author/s than anything else. I see plenty of men that are comfortable with contact beyond sports every day in my life. Oh no.... We don't sit in each others laps whispering sweet nothings in each others ears like women do.... That fist bump you just saw those two boys do, those guys at the bar with their arms around each other ordering their next shots, and those boys you see play wrestling in the neighbors front yard are all just fine. They aren't touch deprived. I feel like theres this growing pressure for men to feminize themselves recently and the reason behind it seems to elude me. This author does't appear to live in the same world as me. Because I see my fellow male friends hug each other when it's been a long time, I see them express concern and love when somebody leaves for military duty or returns from military duty, I see hugs passed out like candy when one of us becomes a new father(I could keep going for days). I see homophobia in todays world... yes.... But its nowhere near as rampant as this article would have you believe.

From the heart of this asexual heteroromantic man.... Please don't touch me unless its warranted. Otherwise shit just gets weird.

[ithaca]

As a man I can say I've never felt deprived of anything I wanted in this life. Even though this article was very well written and even had a few things I hadn't thought about before in it... I still just don't agree with this article or articles that cover a similar topic. I feel like these articles are more a cry for attention by the author/s than anything else. I see plenty of men that are comfortable with contact beyond sports every day in my life. Oh no.... We don't sit in each others laps whispering sweet nothings in each others ears like women do.... That fist bump you just saw those two boys do, those guys at the bar with their arms around each other ordering their next shots, and those boys you see play wrestling in the neighbors front yard are all just fine. They aren't touch deprived. I feel like theres this growing pressure for men to feminize themselves recently and the reason behind it seems to elude me. This author does't appear to live in the same world as me. Because I see my fellow male friends hug each other when it's been a long time, I see them express concern and love when somebody leaves for military duty or returns from military duty, I see hugs passed out like candy when one of us becomes a new father(I could keep going for days). I see homophobia in todays world... yes.... But its nowhere near as rampant as this article would have you believe.

From the heart of this asexual heteroromantic man.... Please don't touch me unless its warranted. Otherwise shit just gets weird.

I cuddle with my girl friends, can you say two guys would feel free to do the same and say so publicly without people telling them (or thinking) they're gay?

[uRBAN_Spaceman]

As a man I can say I've never felt deprived of anything I wanted in this life. Even though this article was very well written and even had a few things I hadn't thought about before in it... I still just don't agree with this article or articles that cover a similar topic. I feel like these articles are more a cry for attention by the author/s than anything else. I see plenty of men that are comfortable with contact beyond sports every day in my life. Oh no.... We don't sit in each others laps whispering sweet nothings in each others ears like women do.... That fist bump you just saw those two boys do, those guys at the bar with their arms around each other ordering their next shots, and those boys you see play wrestling in the neighbors front yard are all just fine. They aren't touch deprived. I feel like theres this growing pressure for men to feminize themselves recently and the reason behind it seems to elude me. This author does't appear to live in the same world as me. Because I see my fellow male friends hug each other when it's been a long time, I see them express concern and love when somebody leaves for military duty or returns from military duty, I see hugs passed out like candy when one of us becomes a new father(I could keep going for days). I see homophobia in todays world... yes.... But its nowhere near as rampant as this article would have you believe.

From the heart of this asexual heteroromantic man.... Please don't touch me unless its warranted. Otherwise shit just gets weird.

I cuddle with my girl friends, can you say two guys would feel free to do the same and say so publicly without people telling them (or thinking) they're gay?

Why would I want to cuddle with my boy friends? The idea that I would derive any comfort from it is just beyond me. I could care less about how I am being percieved. My main concern is I literally do not get how it would be comforting to cuddle up with my friends. I don't need that support nor do I want it. I like the strength and independence my upbringing has bestowed upon me.

[Guest]

As a man I can say I've never felt deprived of anything I wanted in this life. Even though this article was very well written and even had a few things I hadn't thought about before in it... I still just don't agree with this article or articles that cover a similar topic. I feel like these articles are more a cry for attention by the author/s than anything else. I see plenty of men that are comfortable with contact beyond sports every day in my life. Oh no.... We don't sit in each others laps whispering sweet nothings in each others ears like women do.... That fist bump you just saw those two boys do, those guys at the bar with their arms around each other ordering their next shots, and those boys you see play wrestling in the neighbors front yard are all just fine. They aren't touch deprived. I feel like theres this growing pressure for men to feminize themselves recently and the reason behind it seems to elude me. This author does't appear to live in the same world as me. Because I see my fellow male friends hug each other when it's been a long time, I see them express concern and love when somebody leaves for military duty or returns from military duty, I see hugs passed out like candy when one of us becomes a new father(I could keep going for days). I see homophobia in todays world... yes.... But its nowhere near as rampant as this article would have you believe.

From the heart of this asexual heteroromantic man.... Please don't touch me unless its warranted. Otherwise shit just gets weird.

There have been studies done in the UK stating that over 50% of men in romantic relationships want more platonic affection, such as cuddling, but are unable to get it. They cannot get it from their friends, or their romantic partner, or their family. So they go without, because it's supposed to be the woman that wants to cuddle. Not ALL men are content with a fist bump. Some do want the same touch as anyone else may, which could include up to cuddling/hand holding, not just "masculine touch". The response from men I know IRL that hear men may like to cuddle for themselves and not just to get a woman to keep having sex with them? "Well, they aren't men, they have vaginas." My partner being friendly with a guy he liked at work had them both being called gay. Any guy in my musical theater group was automatically considered gay just for liking musical theater. Professional cuddlers who discuss the genders of their clients say they get a ton of men (the majority of their clients are male), because they are starved for non-sexual affection. It is an issue for many men, even if not for you. If one does not WANT to do these things, then don't do them. However, if they do want to, it would be nice if they had the freedom to without shame or fear. I mean, just look at all the times Patrick Stewart keeps being called gay because he holds hands with Ian Mckellan (his FRIEND) in public. He took to twitter to inform people you can't catch homosexuality by hanging out with LGBT crowds.

Outside of handshakes I never touch anyone deliberately, and people generally don't touch me, so I guess I'm doomed. And yet I feel zero desire to get physically close to anyone, male or female, for any reason. I'm not repulsed by touch so much as I'm disinterested in it (although I do actively dislike cuddling). Perhaps I've been conditioned as the article suggests, but if so, it runs so deep in me that it includes both genders.

The thing with any "health benefits" from things like this is it is usually from increased happiness, lowered stress, release of certain happy chemicals, etc. If you do not get these benefits from it, then you can ignore it. Unfortunately, they tend to like to write it as "health benefits for all" instead of pointing that out... like sex, they claim it's beneficial for everyone but if you get STRESSED instead of RELIEVE STRESS during it, then it really isn't. They just don't think of those that find the activities unpleasant when writing.

[tuvok]

It is a problem and I don't think the article grasps how big this issue is.

Sure touch is gone and has been for quite a while. That is weird for people who knew a world where that was normal but I never did so I don't miss what I never had.

But we are isolated in so many other ways. Asking a stranger for directions is not only taboo but it will be met with a "just look at your phone" and you get brushed off as the weird one.

Making small talk with the cashier is seen as slowing down the line and remembering the name of the cashier is seen as stalking. (Even though you meet every day)

Talking to strangers is so unacceptable that I question how anyone even know anyone. Sure you know your coworkers but if you can't talk outside of work then it becomes a bit lonely.

Touch is even worse. I can see the dread in peoples faces when I strike up conversation but if I were to touch them it would get so much worse.

I have watched so many people and it seems like unless you are accompanied by friends then you are not allowed to show emotions, be polite or say a word.

I don't know if I want people to rub my feets but a friendlier world would be nice.

Every time I get touched in a non obligatory way I get a rush of joy and I am not sure that I would feel the same if it wasn't so rare.

[Touchofinsight]

Quoted from the first paragraph of the article: "American men can go for days or weeks at a time without touching another human being. "

Try months or years even. I don't remember the last time I even had significant physical contact with another human being beyond day to day interactions. However I just don't get much comfort from other men touching me. *shrugs* I have never longed to cuddle with another man.

[Guest]

I'm not a guy, so I really don't have a whole lot to say about this specific topic I guess.. but I never let that stop me in the past so here goes haha..

Reading the article was just.. well it went completely over my head I guess. It discussed how men would want to cuddle and hold hands etc if they weren't afraid of being considered homosexual, but I would *never* do those things with anyone other than my partner, that kind of touch to me is reserved only for intimate partners.. I have no interest in or desire for that sort of thing with my friends (female or male) so clearly people don't only 'not touch' for fear of being perceived one way or another.

I haven't been touched by another adult in years, literally years.. would have been 2011 before I left my ex I guess, though admittedly I did my best to avoid touching him anyway in case I accidentally initiated sex *sigh*.. and the "lack" of touch just doesn't bother me. I don't need it, I don't desire it, I don't miss it.. I'd rather game or watch a movie with my friends any day than have them platonically fondling me on the couch, that's for sure haha.

I guess "platonic touch deprivation" is just a concept that's beyond me. I absolutely understand that babies and young children, especially, need touch as a healthy part of early childhood development, and I chose attachment parenting to ensure my two daughters were, and are, as happy and healthy as possible, but that was/is for their benefit, not mine. I just don't really comprehend the "need" for touch in adults outside of a romantic relationship. Why bother sitting on a friend's knee when you can just sit on opposite side of the couch and have more space? I don't know.

As a female, I certainly don't want my female or male friends platonically groping me or getting touchy feely, and I can see why a lot of people would feel the same, it's just.. awkward.. Not necessary.

Sure I imagine there are some men out there who wish they could be touched and cuddled by their male friends, but the majority of men I've met/known in the past seem to feel more like uRBAN_Spaceman described above, and how I myself feel ..they just didn't seem to care about being touchy feely amongst their mates (though usually happy to be touchy-feely to a woman if she'd let them I might add, friend or otherwise ) ..it wasn't that they were scared of being considered homosexual, they just literally weren't interested in cuddling and "rubbing" their mates, or sitting on their mates lap or whatever. And they were always comfortable to fist bump or wrestle or even squeeze the others shoulders if he was drunk and upset for example, it's just the whole "touchy feely cuddle hand holding" thing they weren't into except with a female partner.. Again, not because of fear of being considered homosexual and experiencing backlash because of that; They just weren't interested in the first place.

Anyway like I said, I just can't really relate to this article at all (and I don't think that's just because I'm not a man) ..it was well written etc, I just don't really know how relevant it actually was to as many men as it was making out.. some I'm sure, but the article seemed to be suggesting that "most or all" men are longing for platonic snuggles among their mates but are too afraid to express that..

I do agree though that two men *should* be able to cuddle/hold hands etc in public without experiencing any backlash if that's what they both want to be doing, regardless of whether it's romantic touch or just platonic.

Anyway again, not a man, so I'm not entirely sure why I even took the time to comment, just procrastinating about doing the dishes I think :P

[Notte stellata]

Although I agree men should be able to share physical touch with other men without judgment, I think what the article is really advocating is gay rights, and it's just using "touch isolation" to make a point. It's probably true that many men aren't getting enough non-sexual touch, but how many really want to touch other guys? The article just assumes "wanting non-sexual touch = wanting to touch people of the same sex" without any evidence. Like some other people said above, most men don't seem to desire touching other men. It doesn't matter whether it's because of natural inclination or social conditioning; unlike what the article suggests, they just don't want to. And the two sources cited at the end are about the importance of touch, not the importance of touch between men. This part especially makes me cringe:

The lack of touch in men’s lives results in a higher likelihood of depression, alcoholism, mental and physical illness. Put simply, touch isolation is making men’s lives less healthy and more lonely.

Just because you're arguing for the importance of touch, doesn't mean all these things can be attributed to lack of touch. Citation please?

Again, I'm totally for normalizing physical touch between men, but I just don't like the way the article is written.

[DiEvAl]

Asking a stranger for directions is not only taboo but it will be met with a "just look at your phone" and you get brushed off as the weird one.

Making small talk with the cashier is seen as slowing down the line and remembering the name of the cashier is seen as stalking. (Even though you meet every day)

Talking to strangers is so unacceptable that I question how anyone even know anyone. Sure you know your coworkers but if you can't talk outside of work then it becomes a bit lonely.

I have watched so many people and it seems like unless you are accompanied by friends then you are not allowed to show emotions, be polite or say a word.

I haven't noticed any of those problems where I live.

[ithaca]

As a man I can say I've never felt deprived of anything I wanted in this life. Even though this article was very well written and even had a few things I hadn't thought about before in it... I still just don't agree with this article or articles that cover a similar topic. I feel like these articles are more a cry for attention by the author/s than anything else. I see plenty of men that are comfortable with contact beyond sports every day in my life. Oh no.... We don't sit in each others laps whispering sweet nothings in each others ears like women do.... That fist bump you just saw those two boys do, those guys at the bar with their arms around each other ordering their next shots, and those boys you see play wrestling in the neighbors front yard are all just fine. They aren't touch deprived. I feel like theres this growing pressure for men to feminize themselves recently and the reason behind it seems to elude me. This author does't appear to live in the same world as me. Because I see my fellow male friends hug each other when it's been a long time, I see them express concern and love when somebody leaves for military duty or returns from military duty, I see hugs passed out like candy when one of us becomes a new father(I could keep going for days). I see homophobia in todays world... yes.... But its nowhere near as rampant as this article would have you believe.

From the heart of this asexual heteroromantic man.... Please don't touch me unless its warranted. Otherwise shit just gets weird.

I cuddle with my girl friends, can you say two guys would feel free to do the same and say so publicly without people telling them (or thinking) they're gay?

Why would I want to cuddle with my boy friends? The idea that I would derive any comfort from it is just beyond me. I could care less about how I am being percieved. My main concern is I literally do not get how it would be comforting to cuddle up with my friends. I don't need that support nor do I want it. I like the strength and independence my upbringing has bestowed upon me.

I got that. I wasn't asking about you personally in my question. I asked you if you think that two guys would feel free to do the same and talk about it publicly without anyone shaming them or calling them gay.

[Guest]

I got that. I wasn't asking about you personally in my question. I asked you if you think that two guys would feel free to do the same and talk about it publicly without anyone shaming them or calling them gay.

Are you saying you sit around and cuddle your girlfirends in public though Ithica, like, in a coffee shop or whatever? because I know if I did that with a female in a public place, someone would definitely throw a homophobic remark at us and we may be asked to tone it down a little. I can't actually say I have ever seen two women getting really snuggly in public to be honest, now that I think about it. .. Even heterosexual couples often (not always, but often) save the more touchy stuff for at home in private don't they? Sure two men being affectionate toward each other in public would experience harsher backlash that two women, that's how society is, but meh, I just don't know how many people need platonic touch so badly that they need to be snuggling and holding hands with their friends in public in the first place?

Also, are we talking just a cuddle, or full on snuggling? because men give each other bromance hugs (grab, cuddle, pat on the back, let go) all the time during sports events, at airports etc, without experiencing backlash.. women do too of course.. but actual snuggling in public? i'm pretty sure that any people of the same gender would be frowned upon by many if they were getting up close and personal like that in a public place.

Sure it would be good if people who *do* want that touch (whether for romantic or platonic reasons) could do it in public without being threatened and called names etc, but I just don't think it's as much of an 'epidemic' as this article is making out.

Men are suffering from an epidemic of not being able to snuggle their friends in public places.. really? I don't know, I'm just not really buying it.

[whitesphere]

It sounds like there are two very separate, but inter-related issues here.

First are social norms for physical expression of affection. In adults, generally, it seems restricted to romantic partner, immediate family and to some extent, with close friends. Now, obviously, not everyone has the same value for "amount of touch required," so some people can go years without being touched. This part is more of a problem for men and women who require a higher degree of touch than social norms allow.

Second is how deeply male identity is STILL tied to repressing emotions (except anger). Touch is one key facet of emotional expression, and a man who, say, cries or admits openly he feels afraid of something can expect to probably be made fun of by other men and possibly women. He'll be told to "man up," if these people don't openly make fun of him. The reason is that male worth is defined primarily by what they do by society. In the most extreme fictional case, the "heroic sacrifice" is almost always male in movies.

I imagine men who have a higher threshold of platonic touch required would be doubly hurt by the second facet here. Because of social norms, almost all types of touch are in the "only acceptable with your romantic (female) partner" for men.

In my case, for example, I have 2 very close female friends I've known for over 10 years. Both refrain from touching me almost all of the time to avoid giving me unconscious mixed messages.

Well, there is one acceptable outlet for platonic touch --- pets. I haven't yet heard a man get called nasty names for hugging and sweet talking his dog. In my case, I cuddle my cats fairly often (this annoys most of them). But human touch would be nice, because to me, touch is a key communication channel for all types of fondness and love.

[ithaca]

I got that. I wasn't asking about you personally in my question. I asked you if you think that two guys would feel free to do the same and talk about it publicly without anyone shaming them or calling them gay.

Are you saying you sit around and cuddle your girlfirends in public though Ithica, like, in a coffee shop or whatever? because I know if I did that with a female in a public place, someone would definitely throw a homophobic remark at us and we may be asked to tone it down a little. I can't actually say I have ever seen two women getting really snuggly in public to be honest, now that I think about it. .. Even heterosexual couples often (not always, but often) save the more touchy stuff for at home in private don't they? Sure two men being affectionate toward each other in public would experience harsher backlash that two women, that's how society is, but meh, I just don't know how many people need platonic touch so badly that they need to be snuggling and holding hands with their friends in public in the first place?

Also, are we talking just a cuddle, or full on snuggling? because men give each other bromance hugs (grab, cuddle, pat on the back, let go) all the time during sports events, at airports etc, without experiencing backlash.. women do too of course.. but actual snuggling in public? i'm pretty sure that any people of the same gender would be frowned upon by many if they were getting up close and personal like that in a public place.

Sure it would be good if people who *do* want that touch (whether for romantic or platonic reasons) could do it in public without being threatened and called names etc, but I just don't think it's as much of an 'epidemic' as this article is making out.

Men are suffering from an epidemic of not being able to snuggle their friends in public places.. really? I don't know, I'm just not really buying it.

I did not say publicly as in cuddling publicly. My question was clearer in my first post I believe. Do two guys feel free to cuddle when friends, at home or whatever, and then say they did (to other friends or whoever) without being considered gay?

[Notte stellata]

It sounds like there are two very separate, but inter-related issues here.

First are social norms for physical expression of affection. In adults, generally, it seems restricted to romantic partner, immediate family and to some extent, with close friends. Now, obviously, not everyone has the same value for "amount of touch required," so some people can go years without being touched. This part is more of a problem for men and women who require a higher degree of touch than social norms allow.

Second is how deeply male identity is STILL tied to repressing emotions (except anger). Touch is one key facet of emotional expression, and a man who, say, cries or admits openly he feels afraid of something can expect to probably be made fun of by other men and possibly women. He'll be told to "man up," if these people don't openly make fun of him. The reason is that male worth is defined primarily by what they do by society. In the most extreme fictional case, the "heroic sacrifice" is almost always male in movies.

Agreed. I don't think two guys being called gay for showing physical affection is always a demonstration of homophobia, because there may be different reasons behind it. People may call them gay because of the social norm that physical affection is reserved to romantic partners, and this doesn't only apply to two guys. A guy and a girl holding hands or cuddling will most likely be perceived as a couple too (and depending on the culture, it may be the same for two girls). This has nothing to do with homophobia.

Another reason is a guy openly displaying affection is perceived as feminine, and being feminine is closely linked to being gay. Even in this case, it's not necessarily homophobia; it may just be stereotypes. For example, Raj in The Big Bang Theory is often seen as gay by his friends because of his feminine behaviors, but his friends don't say it in a derogating way. They just believe a feminine guy must be gay. The stereotype annoys me very much, but I don't think it's homophobic.

The article advocates gay rights as a solution to the touch isolation problem, but I think even if homosexuals have equal rights, the problem will still exist because of social norms regarding touch and gay stereotypes.

[Chardog]

This also affects male/ female non-sexual physical affection. It places touch into the category of = can only lead to sex/have sexual intentions behind it. And we wonder how sex/love have become confused and inextricable interlinked.

[Batman's Ace]

It sounds like there are two very separate, but inter-related issues here.

First are social norms for physical expression of affection. In adults, generally, it seems restricted to romantic partner, immediate family and to some extent, with close friends. Now, obviously, not everyone has the same value for "amount of touch required," so some people can go years without being touched. This part is more of a problem for men and women who require a higher degree of touch than social norms allow.

Second is how deeply male identity is STILL tied to repressing emotions (except anger). Touch is one key facet of emotional expression, and a man who, say, cries or admits openly he feels afraid of something can expect to probably be made fun of by other men and possibly women. He'll be told to "man up," if these people don't openly make fun of him. The reason is that male worth is defined primarily by what they do by society. In the most extreme fictional case, the "heroic sacrifice" is almost always male in movies.

Agreed. I don't think two guys being called gay for showing physical affection is always a demonstration of homophobia, because there may be different reasons behind it. People may call them gay because of the social norm that physical affection is reserved to romantic partners, and this doesn't only apply to two guys. A guy and a girl holding hands or cuddling will most likely be perceived as a couple too (and depending on the culture, it may be the same for two girls). This has nothing to do with homophobia.

Another reason is a guy openly displaying affection is perceived as feminine, and being feminine is closely linked to being gay. Even in this case, it's not necessarily homophobia; it may just be stereotypes. For example, Raj in The Big Bang Theory is often seen as gay by his friends because of his feminine behaviors, but his friends don't say it in a derogating way. They just believe a feminine guy must be gay. The stereotype annoys me very much, but I don't think it's homophobic.

The article advocates gay rights as a solution to the touch isolation problem, but I think even if homosexuals have equal rights, the problem will still exist because of social norms regarding touch and gay stereotypes.

I can confirm the guy/girl thing. Being female-bodied and comfortable around guys I've known a while led to me being asked "how long have you two been together?" quite a few times in high school and college. And I myself have seen two girls holding hands and thought "?" before realizing I actually have no real grounds to make an assumption like that.

There are several factors that can cancel out the association (affection = totally into each other), like a big age gap or a clear family resemblance, but the default remains the same. I agree that homosexual rights isn't the solution to this particular problem; a healthier attitude towards genuine friendships and touch in general would improve things a lot more.

I'm actually finding the whole "girls are allowed" vibe puzzling. That really depends on where you are. I see plenty of hugging, not limited by sex. I see arms around shoulders, mostly men. I see leaning, mostly women. I see playful touches, bumps, and roughhousing, mostly men. I'm pretty sure the women in my (pretty conservative) circle get no more meaningful platonic contact than the men, and probably less. On the other hand, I look at pictures of women outside my circle and there I see sitting in laps and other stuff the women I know well would NOT do. Touch is not a consistent thing across "the culture" because there isn't one "the culture", there's a wide variety of social attitudes.

[Prairie]

I think that one part of their view is that the fact that people don't want to touch others much when they become adults is due to the phenomenon of pushing lots of aspects of relations to intimate/sexual partnerships only, that these things work at a conditioning level. I don't particularly desire a lot of contact with people but I don't rule out there being some of what the article discusses (though not male-specific as it focuses on).

[Guest]

I got that. I wasn't asking about you personally in my question. I asked you if you think that two guys would feel free to do the same and talk about it publicly without anyone shaming them or calling them gay.

Are you saying you sit around and cuddle your girlfirends in public though Ithica, like, in a coffee shop or whatever? because I know if I did that with a female in a public place, someone would definitely throw a homophobic remark at us and we may be asked to tone it down a little. I can't actually say I have ever seen two women getting really snuggly in public to be honest, now that I think about it. .. Even heterosexual couples often (not always, but often) save the more touchy stuff for at home in private don't they? Sure two men being affectionate toward each other in public would experience harsher backlash that two women, that's how society is, but meh, I just don't know how many people need platonic touch so badly that they need to be snuggling and holding hands with their friends in public in the first place? Also, are we talking just a cuddle, or full on snuggling? because men give each other bromance hugs (grab, cuddle, pat on the back, let go) all the time during sports events, at airports etc, without experiencing backlash.. women do too of course.. but actual snuggling in public? i'm pretty sure that any people of the same gender would be frowned upon by many if they were getting up close and personal like that in a public place. Sure it would be good if people who *do* want that touch (whether for romantic or platonic reasons) could do it in public without being threatened and called names etc, but I just don't think it's as much of an 'epidemic' as this article is making out. Men are suffering from an epidemic of not being able to snuggle their friends in public places.. really? I don't know, I'm just not really buying it.

I did not say publicly as in cuddling publicly. My question was clearer in my first post I believe. Do two guys feel free to cuddle when friends, at home or whatever, and then say they did (to other friends or whoever) without being considered gay?

I don't think "they must be gay" would cross my mind quite as fast as "okay so why are they telling me about what they do in private? I don't care" ..lol. I don't go and tell people "my partner and I were cyber-cuddling for 3 hours last night" .. and I don't see other people doing the same.

Do you go around and tell people the next day if you had been cuddling one of your friends on the couch the night before Ithica? And if you did tell people that last night you and your friend Susan cuddled on the couch for three hours while watching movies would some people maybe think you and Susan might be interested in each other in "that way"? or if you have a male friend and you go around telling people you snuggled him for 3 hours last night while watching movies, would people think maybe you and your male friend are "interested" in being 'more than friends' with each other?

I'm just saying, it's often automatic for many people to assume "relationship" if two people are very physically close (sad but true) regardless of the orientations of the people involved.

Sure it's sad that two men of any sexual orientation may face cruel homophobic backlash if they went around telling people that last night they cuddled while watching a movie.. but again, do they *need* to tell other people about it? as long as they had a good time, that's what matters. who cares if other people know or not? Same goes for any of the examples I used.

And yeah I agree with the above poster about the "girls are allowed" vibe being a little puzzling. In some places I'm guessing close female platonic intimacy in public is fine, but I know here a woman sitting on another woman's lap in public would experience homophobic backlash, it's just not the "done thing" .. even a heterosexual couple or a male and female friend displaying that kind of public closeness would get funny looks.. so it depends on where you are too I guess.

[AceofThrones]

America...it effing sucks being a young person who desires platonic soft touch in today's world. Even asexual people who do not desire sex have a problem keeping their minds "out of the gutter" when they see hugging, platonic intimacy, kissing, etc. We jump to the assumption that one man and one woman must be the role models of touch, and they must be in a romantic relationship to be touching in the first place. Why in the would have we let ourselves be so bloody well brainwashed to think out of the ordinary or unusual for today's American culture is some big deal and must be scorned and avoided? I remember as boys, we were more quick to show our inner emotions. I believe being brainwashed and fed this shit that we can't let out emotions out as we become older is a complete and utter sack of horse poop! I know some people have stated above that they really don't like touch. Well, that may be because you weren't taught how to touch properly... Or shown how it can be indeed therapeutic. And let us realize that some proven therapy and love gestures aren't for everyone. But my guess is that men of my age (27) and somewhat older and all younger are all shown in movies and shows, taught by ther schools and their friends, families and the society they live in that touch is saved for that person to whom you must flirt with, and eventually have some form of intercourse with.

As I said....America!! In other countries, we kiss on cheeks, with everyone! Old and young alike! And let's not forget our beginnings. Being "feminine" (that saying really annoys me) like the King who wore many rings and adornments and fancy gowns and make up and wigs? And the most powerful man was to be touched in platonic reference...maybe we are all too soft. We haven't seen enough hardships like other countries..:poor countries where your fellow brother is starving and you starve with him...and to ease the pangs of hunger, a comforting cuddle is all that you can give. I think we sometimes don't touch because we are spoiled and rotten.

[Ashmedai]

I don't get touched all that often, other than the occaisonal handshake or obligatory hug. I'm quite fine without it, and could actually go without said obligatory hugs. The fact that this article says that this should be making me sick is rather unfortunate.

[Guest]

I don't get touched all that often, other than the occaisonal handshake or obligatory hug. I'm quite fine without it, and could actually go without said obligatory hugs. The fact that this article says that this should be making me sick is rather unfortunate.

Yeah, it shouldn't assume EVERYONE wants touch. Plenty of people are either OK without, or touch averse and would actually be harmed by getting it. :(