#AgenderProblems

[SleepyFox]

Excitedly pointing out the Agender/ Gender-fluid/ Gender-neutral section in a book about gender non-conformity to Mum:

Me: "hey Mum look! That's me!."

mum: *reads the article and makes vaguely disapproving sound, never mentions it, pretends it doesn't exist."

I mean, I'm all for trying to educate my family if they want to ask questions but it's really hard when they just don't engage with you in any discussion about identity, be it gender or sexuality.

[Blueberry Pie]

Not too long ago I was talking to the people I sit with at my school's cafeteria, and I mentioned that I wish clothes/accessories like dresses and makeup shouldn't always define someone as a woman and that someone who is not a woman should be able to wear them. One of them said that there was a "reason" for why someone who's not a woman can't wear that stuff, and when I asked what that "reason" was she practically said it was because of biological sex. I didn't say anything about how biological sex is NOT gender and that gender shouldn't keep a person from wearing what they want either because I was afraid of starting a big argument, but I kind of kick myself now for not saying anything. I feel like if I came out as agender to those people they would say that I have to be female just because I'm biologically one.

[Dodecahedron314]

2 hours ago, Blueberry Pie said:

Not too long ago I was talking to the people I sit with at my school's cafeteria, and I mentioned that I wish clothes/accessories like dresses and makeup shouldn't always define someone as a woman and that someone who is not a woman should be able to wear them. One of them said that there was a "reason" for why someone who's not a woman can't wear that stuff, and when I asked what that "reason" was she practically said it was because of biological sex. I didn't say anything about how biological sex is NOT gender and that gender shouldn't keep a person from wearing what they want either because I was afraid of starting a big argument, but I kind of kick myself now for not saying anything. I feel like if I came out as agender to those people they would say that I have to be female just because I'm biologically one.

How...what...does...any...set...of...physical...characteristics...have...to...do...with...makeup...or...dresses...????  This person's attempt at logic confounds me.

[Luftschlosseule]

7 hours ago, Dodecahedron314 said:

How...what...does...any...set...of...physical...characteristics...have...to...do...with...makeup...or...dresses...????  This person's attempt at logic confounds me.

 

Now I am thinking about magic clothing that will strangle the owner if the clothing does not like this person.

[Mezzo Forte]

9 hours ago, Dodecahedron314 said:

How...what...does...any...set...of...physical...characteristics...have...to...do...with...makeup...or...dresses...????  This person's attempt at logic confounds me.

 

Sorry to intrude on an agender space, but if anything, dresses/skirts are more suited to male-associated anatomy. (If I remember correctly, the only reason why pants became a thing is basically because of horseback riding.) The only reasons why they might look like they suit female-associated anatomy is because 1) society reinforcing an indexical link between the two, which leads to 2) most people designing dresses to fit estrogen-based fat distribution. 

 

Although I gave it away some years ago, I did own a dress that probably would have suited masculine people pretty decently. Heck, I have some "women's" clothes that I'm holding onto because I'm going to look like a goddamn rock star in them once I get top surgery. 

[Blueberry Pie]

18 hours ago, Luftschlosseule said:

 

Now I am thinking about magic clothing that will strangle the owner if the clothing does not like this person.

Holy guacamole! Now I'm imagining that my gym clothes are attacking me.

[Toothlesss]

On 03/12/2016 at 8:58 PM, Blueberry Pie said:

Not too long ago I was talking to the people I sit with at my school's cafeteria, and I mentioned that I wish clothes/accessories like dresses and makeup shouldn't always define someone as a woman and that someone who is not a woman should be able to wear them. One of them said that there was a "reason" for why someone who's not a woman can't wear that stuff

 

Also, actors, newscasters, etc- all have to wear makeup regardless of gender. Stage lights (including sound stages) tend to drown out facial features. 

[Blueberry Pie]

On 12/5/2016 at 3:04 AM, cowgirl326 said:

 

Also, actors, newscasters, etc- all have to wear makeup regardless of gender. Stage lights (including sound stages) tend to drown out facial features. 

That's true! I should have mentioned that to them.

[SleepyFox]

I did my Diploma in Makeup Services last year; included a whole range of things from beauty to stage to editorial to special effects and NOT ONCE did the trainers demonstrate how to do makeup on male skin. I had to pester them nearly every class about "How would we do this on men?", "what about guys?", "how would I do that technique on rough or stubbly skin?"

Coincidentally this was also when I slowly realised I was Agender so I was already feeling like a fraud sitting in an entire school of very girly girls. (Don't even get me started on being called ladies and girls full time for the year).

 

I would always get weird side-looks for asking about how to make faces appear more masculine or doing makeup on men. And what REALLY gets me is that I only ever got one response on male makeup which was "go with the grain of the stubble" which doesn't work in all cases.

 

I'm a huge believer in makeup being gender neutral and not always for fashion purposes and the fact that qualified trainers refused to even acknowledge that men could wear makeup outside of drag shows makes me so annoyed. Plus I feel like I was cheated out of important knowledge for my degree. I'm tempted to go and get trainer qualifications just to turn up at that school and be all "ALRIGHT HERE'S WHAT THEY DIDN'T TEACH YOU, PEOPLE".

 

ahem. Sorry for the rant. Gender neutral makeup is a topic that's close to my heart. :/

 

(P.S. add guys who have acne scarring or birthmarks or generally take care of their appearance to that list of men who wear makeup. Even politicians. Any one in front of a camera will wear it. )

[i_am_me2]

being constantly told you do not dress gender appropriately. ie: you are a girl, girls wear pretty things, one day i will see you in a dress. sigh. i do not feel like a girl  i may dress masculine but i do not feel masculine. i am me 

[Andiamo]

I was in my theater class yesterday and we were all giving our final performances. I was sitting next to my genderfluid friend. One girl gave her performance then sat next to us. The two of us congratulated her on her performance, and she turned to us and said "Thanks, girls!" Nope. Wrong on both counts.

[Sibemarie]

I spend many years of my life alongside the same group of close friends, who accepted me as i am and making no questions (with a few exceptions from aquaintances that asked annoying questions here and there)

So for long i did not have to bother much with gender - based questions. But since my country went through this nasty economic crisis i never again got a decent job here, and i have to work abroad. Which means new social environments, and obviously mostly binary and sexual people. Girls usually dress up or put the cute make up on, they use cleavage shirts, dresses at parties or nights out and i always the same, a mix of grunge/ metal, long shirts, large shirts, boots, turtlenecks, lumberjack shirts, jeans, no make up, long messy hair (more like a grunge singer hair more than a girls hair), i only like to dress stuff that make my body shapeless, almost like as if i had a (much desired)10 year old body. Shapeless, genderless. So recently i was working abroad and there was this girl talking to me (she was kind and friendly, generous and helpful coworker, had good intentions, but...i just could not tell how i am, sometimes it just awkward and exhausting to tell the WHOLE story about me and make people accept and/or understand....

She said: "You are nice and fun, you should discover and improve the woman in yourself, you should dress more feminine, you are dressing like a man - you should love yourself and open your heart so you can find the love of your life"

I just said something "well i'm kind of hmm, alternative, rocker, you know, i just dont bother much on dressing up"

"But you should, give freedom to your mind and body, find happiness, because you are nice and pretty, and a lot of men would like you!"

Oh my, oh my...

Years ago i was kind of in a protected social bubble, but since i started working abroad and meeting new people sometimes it is complicated to deal with these situations over and over again. you are in another country, away from home, friends and family and then you have a lot of social pressure around, and on the top of this you have these things like this that can be exhausting and stressing.

[Sibemarie]

On 09/12/2016 at 1:50 PM, SleepyFox said:

I did my Diploma in Makeup Services last year; included a whole range of things from beauty to stage to editorial to special effects and NOT ONCE did the trainers demonstrate how to do makeup on male skin. I had to pester them nearly every class about "How would we do this on men?", "what about guys?", "how would I do that technique on rough or stubbly skin?"

Coincidentally this was also when I slowly realised I was Agender so I was already feeling like a fraud sitting in an entire school of very girly girls. (Don't even get me started on being called ladies and girls full time for the year).

 

I would always get weird side-looks for asking about how to make faces appear more masculine or doing makeup on men. And what REALLY gets me is that I only ever got one response on male makeup which was "go with the grain of the stubble" which doesn't work in all cases.

 

I'm a huge believer in makeup being gender neutral and not always for fashion purposes and the fact that qualified trainers refused to even acknowledge that men could wear makeup outside of drag shows makes me so annoyed. Plus I feel like I was cheated out of important knowledge for my degree. I'm tempted to go and get trainer qualifications just to turn up at that school and be all "ALRIGHT HERE'S WHAT THEY DIDN'T TEACH YOU, PEOPLE".

 

ahem. Sorry for the rant. Gender neutral makeup is a topic that's close to my heart. :/

 

(P.S. add guys who have acne scarring or birthmarks or generally take care of their appearance to that list of men who wear makeup. Even politicians. Any one in front of a camera will wear it. )

The only kind of make up i can use nowadays (and very very rare situations when i put it on, very seldom really) it's a bit of pale color powder on my face (to look more pale) and black shades around the eyes. it is a very gothic make up i think, that can be seen in gothic people, both guys and girls, anyway it is like a kind of a smooth "vampire/zombie" soft version i might say and i think it's very genderless make up, i think at least.

[Toothlesss]

8 minutes ago, Sibemarie said:

She said: "You are nice and fun, you should discover and improve the woman in yourself, you should dress more feminine, you are dressing like a man - you should love yourself and open your heart so you can find the love of your life"

*sigh* same reaction when I read a website or something online when it goes on and on about that. There isn't a woman inside me, there isn't a man inside me- it's neither. The term "woman" doesn't compute. 

 

10 minutes ago, Sibemarie said:

"But you should, give freedom to your mind and body, find happiness, because you are nice and pretty, and a lot of men would like you!"

The sad part is- they probably can't fathom the very existence of non-binary genders. That being said- anyone can wear feminine clothing or vice versa. :/   

[The Mechanic]

2 hours ago, cowgirl326 said:

*sigh* same reaction when I read a website or something online when it goes on and on about that. There isn't a woman inside me, there isn't a man inside me- it's neither. The term "woman" doesn't compute. 

 

The sad part is- they probably can't fathom the very existence of non-binary genders. That being said- anyone can wear feminine clothing or vice versa. :/   

If there's one thing that's always bugged me about our modern culture it's the stereotypes and messages in clothing.  Everything from the colors to style to messages on them is designed to exemplify binary gender stereotypes

[Sibemarie]

16 hours ago, cowgirl326 said:

*sigh* same reaction when I read a website or something online when it goes on and on about that. There isn't a woman inside me, there isn't a man inside me- it's neither. The term "woman" doesn't compute. 

 

The sad part is- they probably can't fathom the very existence of non-binary genders. That being said- anyone can wear feminine clothing or vice versa. :/   

There is no feminine side of me, neither woman as they say, so nothing will come up. I can't act feminine, i dont want to, i dont need to.The few times i simply had to dress slighlty more feminine in a few occasions in my youth i felt awfully unconfortable and it felt so wrong. It was not me there. I don't want to look feminine and i don't want to find any man, the only man in my life is my best friend, and that's it, i am glad i live in western countries where we can choose not be feminine or find a partner or worse: sex and children. I would kill myself if i was forced to.  The sad thing is that people who talk like that girl they are educated, but often misguided, they don't know or never heard about nonbinary or asexuality. Never ever, so according to the common education and information they read or learn, someone like me is seen as repressed, low self esteem, shy, closet lesbian, and all of this is totally not my case. This was a person interested in yoga, tantra,energies, eastern philosophies, etc, which is an educated person. But most of these eastern doctrines and philosophy/practices seem to be very rooted in defined binary genders, and maybe this people can see us as repressed or something like that. Usually they try to dig deeper on where there is nothing to dig. This is me, plain and simple. And i am a person who does not have patience anymore to explain that i am ok like i am, simply because it is my natural way to be.

[The Mechanic]

I don't understand why it's assumed that I have to follow society's concepts of "masculine."  I like listening to both metal and Lindsey Stirling, I weight lift in the gym to build muscle and I also like yoga, and the list goes on.

 

I don't feel like either; I just am.

[Clearly~Dust]

On 12/9/2016 at 7:50 AM, SleepyFox said:

I did my Diploma in Makeup Services last year; included a whole range of things from beauty to stage to editorial to special effects and NOT ONCE did the trainers demonstrate how to do makeup on male skin. I had to pester them nearly every class about "How would we do this on men?", "what about guys?", "how would I do that technique on rough or stubbly skin?"

Coincidentally this was also when I slowly realised I was Agender so I was already feeling like a fraud sitting in an entire school of very girly girls. (Don't even get me started on being called ladies and girls full time for the year).

 

I would always get weird side-looks for asking about how to make faces appear more masculine or doing makeup on men. And what REALLY gets me is that I only ever got one response on male makeup which was "go with the grain of the stubble" which doesn't work in all cases.

 

I'm a huge believer in makeup being gender neutral and not always for fashion purposes and the fact that qualified trainers refused to even acknowledge that men could wear makeup outside of drag shows makes me so annoyed. Plus I feel like I was cheated out of important knowledge for my degree. I'm tempted to go and get trainer qualifications just to turn up at that school and be all "ALRIGHT HERE'S WHAT THEY DIDN'T TEACH YOU, PEOPLE".

 

ahem. Sorry for the rant. Gender neutral makeup is a topic that's close to my heart. :/

 

(P.S. add guys who have acne scarring or birthmarks or generally take care of their appearance to that list of men who wear makeup. Even politicians. Any one in front of a camera will wear it. )

You should go check out Edward Avila. He is a YouTube Make-up tutorial guy. He lives in Korea, but still. Here's the url to his channel. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNM5-NRrDxL0PWC5H52smaQ 

[Sibemarie]

1 hour ago, jackdog1 said:

I don't understand why it's assumed that I have to follow society's concepts of "masculine."  I like listening to both metal and Lindsey Stirling, I weight lift in the gym to build muscle and I also like yoga, and the list goes on.

 

I don't feel like either; I just am.

I can listen both Enya or Norwegian black metal, regardless from definition of gender tendences. It depends on my mood, not on my gender. I can also sing a bit of these kind of clean medieval vocals, but at a point i get bored. I rather play drums in metal rehersals. Metal drums fits more my personality than clean "female" vocals (and i would never go on medieval dresses to sing live, just because it does not fit my way of being). When people know that i play heavy/black metal drums, they always get surprised because i am female born, not of the quality (very basic, amateur quality) of my drumming skills. This annoys me a bit because drums on metal bands is very much bound to gender paradigm and perceived as a male thing. But i can play, i LOVE to play, so i play. Don't feel like man or woman, when i play i am simply a drummer, putting my soul and emotion on music.

[Toothlesss]

Having a username that's feminine, but you're not feminine, and you're comfortable with it. 

Unsure whether you, as yourself can post in another thread- because you're more agender then anything else. 

 

Unsure whether you should've posted the post as it's own thread. 

[Mychemicalqpr]

This one has a happy ending.

 

So today we had my brother's friend, my step brother, and his wife over, and we decided to play the board game Life.  I and everyone else had the sudden realization that the blue peg for male player and pink peg for female player setup was going to be an issue for me.  Mom asked me which one I'd rather have, and I started to get anxious.  Fortunately though, my step brother then had the idea to cut a piece of a toothpick and use that.  I don't remember directly coming out to him, but I guess he picked up on the hints?  The toothpick piece actually stayed in the car, unlike the actual game pieces that are prone to falling out.  

[Ix Phoen]

23 hours ago, Sibemarie said:

She said: "You are nice and fun, you should discover and improve the woman in yourself, you should dress more feminine, you are dressing like a man - you should love yourself and open your heart so you can find the love of your life"

I just said something "well i'm kind of hmm, alternative, rocker, you know, i just dont bother much on dressing up"

"But you should, give freedom to your mind and body, find happiness, because you are nice and pretty, and a lot of men would like you!"

Oh my, oh my...

I'd say, I did give freedom to my mind and body. That's why I dress this way. Can't you tell? ... and I want people to like me as I am, not because I conform to social expectations like a plastic doll. What about you? 

[Dodecahedron314]

13 hours ago, Sibemarie said:

This was a person interested in yoga, tantra,energies, eastern philosophies, etc, which is an educated person. But most of these eastern doctrines and philosophy/practices seem to be very rooted in defined binary genders, and maybe this people can see us as repressed or something like that. Usually they try to dig deeper on where there is nothing to dig

This is the one reason I've been hesitating on coming out to my mom, because she's very much into that whole belief system, and so I feel like she's otherwise super liberal about a lot of things and has binary trans friends and everything, I'm still not entirely sure that she doesn't have some of those weird binarist things still going on on some level because of her spiritualist side.

 

Speaking of which, I also have a more amusing #AgenderProblem (or perhaps just general #NonbinaryProblem): I'm at my mom's house for the holidays, and she's been listening to nothing but David Bowie ever since he died in January. This means that I hear his song "Rebel, Rebel" at least 4-5 times a day, and every time it gets to the line "You've got your mother in a whirl/She's not sure if you're a boy or a girl", I have to struggle to keep a straight face and not snicker just a little bit at the situational irony. I'm not saying that this is my actual plan for coming out, but I am saying that there's a nonzero chance that I will wind up coming out because of this song.

[Blueberry Pie]

So I recently came out as agender to a few of my friends, and one of them was very confused about the whole idea of non-binary genders. I can't blame her since she apparently never heard of anything outside of the binary. Anyway, here's a few things she said:

 

"Oh, so you are biologically a woman but mentally a man?" -- Nooooo. No.

"Okay, you're biologically a woman but mentally other?!" -- The way she said this made it sound like I had a mental illness or something.

"It's like a disorder?" -- (*facepalm*)

"So it's just a thing?" -- Basically saying that I'm just experiencing a phase.

[Sibemarie]

On 13/12/2016 at 10:03 PM, Blueberry Pie said:

So I recently came out as agender to a few of my friends, and one of them was very confused about the whole idea of non-binary genders. I can't blame her since she apparently never heard of anything outside of the binary. Anyway, here's a few things she said:

 

"Oh, so you are biologically a woman but mentally a man?" -- Nooooo. No.

"Okay, you're biologically a woman but mentally other?!" -- The way she said this made it sound like I had a mental illness or something.

"It's like a disorder?" -- (*facepalm*)

"So it's just a thing?" -- Basically saying that I'm just experiencing a phase.

That's why i get exhausted to explain to people. They are often young, quite educated or at least they are around in the era of comunication on the world wide web, they should be open minded. The thing is people are only "openminded" towards anything sexual or binary. Ahead from that is totally unknown, because we dont fit in the binary world.The thing is for us it's quite pure and simple, we are what we are as humans, regardless of gender. But people get smashed somehow with that "void" that stays inside their heads with you say what you are, because they need to fill it with something they can understand. Somehow it is so simple and pure that...people just cannot get it. The modern culture remained hyper-binary so to speak. It is how they move, how they speak, how they dress.

If i dress like Kurt Cobain which i often did,people tried to put me into binary terms like thinking i was lesbian. I am not. I am actually slightly fond of male beauty aesthetics to a certain point, the charm of a personality. However, never to feel love or whatever. But still i dont feel female. But neither a man. I live probably more according to "male" standarts, but if i do a "mostly" male activity, like fixing a wall or playing army games like paintball, i do it because i feel like to, not to feel a man. This is very hard to explain because most human activities are put into binary tendences. If i sing with clear voice medieval songs i do it because i feel, if i cook i do it because i want to, not to feel a woman.

I dont feel man or woman doing the things i want or like. I am a human. For me, that's enough.

I tried already many things but it's difficult. Even this kind of stuff (similar to things i like to do):

"A group of people walked through the forest, climbed a hill and spent overnight in tents, playing guitar outside and telling stories around the fire, are they men or women?"

People can be confused "I dont know..." "Women?...".."Men?" "Both?"

They can be anything. They are climbers, hikers, campers. That' swhat they are doing that defines who they are, not what they have between their legs.

People will stop to think, but again their binary clock starts ticking .."Yes, but..."

Oh my, here we go again...

 

 

[Toothlesss]

20 hours ago, Sibemarie said:

if i cook i do it because i want to, not to feel a woman.

The people "gendering" that activity, clearly forget that there are famous celebrity male chefs out there.. (ie. Bobby Flay, Gordon Ramsey....) along with it being a very real profession for anyone who can afford the schooling for it. 

[ChillaKilla]

GUY FIERI

[Blueberry Pie]

I went out to dinner with my brother and dad yesterday, and the waitress who served us kept calling us "gentlemen." I don't want to be called a gentleman or lady or whatever, but I was actually kind of happy because it showed that I can pass as not being a woman (AFAB). Then my dad, who I'm not out to, decided to say "you'll always be my little girl!" and "sugar and spice and everything nice!" to me as if he thought I was insulted by the waitress. To make matters worse, he said that if I took off my baggy coat I would be immediately recognized as a girl because of my breasts. Well, I guess I won't take off my coat! 

[Guest And Peggy]

When agender autocorrects into a gender

[ChillaKilla]

2 hours ago, CakeSpadeAce said:

When agender autocorrects into a gender

"That is the opposite of what I have"