Split from Asexual Atheists?

[skycake]

Moderator note: This topic includes posts split off from a thread in Intersectionality. It has been moved from that forum to here.

Qutenkuddly,
Intersectionality Moderator

Why should I be the one showing respect when the other person is the one talking nonsense?

Why? Because it's your opinion that they are talking nonsense. And presumably because you want them to respect you. Otherwise, you wouldn't be talking with them, right?

This thread is starting to sound like those "asexuals are better because we're PURE" threads.

If religious (more precisely: monotheistic) people want me to take them seriously, they have to do two things: 1. prove that this god-thing they're so crazy about actually exists. 2. Explain why they think *thier own* interpretation of religion is the true one. That's how it works with any other subject - except religion, obviously, and I haven't heard a good reason so far why this exception should be made. What...you say you can't prove gods existence? Well, not my problem. I didn't believe in it in the first place, so nothing changes for me. The religious are the ones who should feel a bit uneasy about this, not me.
Now, about respect. I do my best to attack ideas, not people. But I have no problem to admit that this can be difficult at times. When you hear/read the same old arguments again and again and again even if they have been dealt with a looong time ago...yes, that makes me angry, and at the very least I question the persons willingness to educate him/herself on the subject. If the cynic in me gets the upper hand, I might just see it as a form of mental retardation and end a discussion.

If I am wrong, I expect people to tell me so and - if they're in the mood - to explain to me *why* I'm wrong. Whether they do that in a polite, respectful way is something I can't control and I think it depends on how much a person knows about a certain subject, how much we like each other, and - I really hope so - on how wrong I actually am. If I'm really really wrong and I'm talking to an expert on the subject, maybe I'm just the one straw that breaks the camels back and the other person looses his cool. Of course I'd *prefer* a polite discussion, but I can't alway promise that myself so i don't expect it from others. I don't want want people to sugarcoat things. Don't waste words and time, just tell me why i'm wrong and I'll think about it. How else could I learn something? Of course that might sting for a moment, no one likes to be told they're wrong, but it's my job to deal with it. Maybe you see this completely differently, but that's just how I work.

If I told you there was an invisible, undetectable unicorn living in my right ear that tells me when to breath in and out - and that's the only way I can survive, I really hope you'd tell me that this is insane and that it'd be probably best if I was hospitalized immediately. If someone tells me that a jewish man who may or may not have lived two thousand years ago has an impact not only on my life today, but also my afterlife (whatever the hell that means...?) - why should my reaction be any different? I don't see any difference between these scenarios, and if you do, please explain it to me. I may not like to be corrected, but even less I like to be wrong.

If you want to avoid all of the above, that's about the easiest thing ever. Just keep it private. There are two places where you can believe and worship whatever you want. 1. Your own head. 2. Your church. A third place is your own home, but I'd politely ask you (since no one can tell you how to raise your kids, and that's a good thing) to please please please (see, I can be nice when I try :) ) don't even bother your children with it. Let them make up their mind when they're old enough.
If you state your ideas publicly, you better be prepared to have them challenged and, in some cases, ridiculed. Isn't it awesome to live in a time and place where this is actually possible?

Have a nice weekend, and all praise to the whispering unicorn.

[IanH]

Why should I be the one showing respect when the other person is the one talking nonsense?

Why? Because it's your opinion that they are talking nonsense. And presumably because you want them to respect you. Otherwise, you wouldn't be talking with them, right?

This thread is starting to sound like those "asexuals are better because we're PURE" threads.

If religious (more precisely: monotheistic) people want me to take them seriously, they have to do two things: 1. prove that this god-thing they're so crazy about actually exists. 2. Explain why they think *thier own* interpretation of religion is the true one. That's how it works with any other subject - except religion, obviously, and I haven't heard a good reason so far why this exception should be made. What...you say you can't prove gods existence? Well, not my problem. I didn't believe in it in the first place, so nothing changes for me. The religious are the ones who should feel a bit uneasy about this, not me.

Now, about respect. I do my best to attack ideas, not people. But I have no problem to admit that this can be difficult at times. When you hear/read the same old arguments again and again and again even if they have been dealt with a looong time ago...yes, that makes me angry, and at the very least I question the persons willingness to educate him/herself on the subject. If the cynic in me gets the upper hand, I might just see it as a form of mental retardation and end a discussion.

If I am wrong, I expect people to tell me so and - if they're in the mood - to explain to me *why* I'm wrong. Whether they do that in a polite, respectful way is something I can't control and I think it depends on how much a person knows about a certain subject, how much we like each other, and - I really hope so - on how wrong I actually am. If I'm really really wrong and I'm talking to an expert on the subject, maybe I'm just the one straw that breaks the camels back and the other person looses his cool. Of course I'd *prefer* a polite discussion, but I can't alway promise that myself so i don't expect it from others. I don't want want people to sugarcoat things. Don't waste words and time, just tell me why i'm wrong and I'll think about it. How else could I learn something? Of course that might sting for a moment, no one likes to be told they're wrong, but it's my job to deal with it. Maybe you see this completely differently, but that's just how I work.

If I told you there was an invisible, undetectable unicorn living in my right ear that tells me when to breath in and out - and that's the only way I can survive, I really hope you'd tell me that this is insane and that it'd be probably best if I was hospitalized immediately. If someone tells me that a jewish man who may or may not have lived two thousand years ago has an impact not only on my life today, but also my afterlife (whatever the hell that means...?) - why should my reaction be any different? I don't see any difference between these scenarios, and if you do, please explain it to me. I may not like to be corrected, but even less I like to be wrong.

If you want to avoid all of the above, that's about the easiest thing ever. Just keep it private. There are two places where you can believe and worship whatever you want. 1. Your own head. 2. Your church. A third place is your own home, but I'd politely ask you (since no one can tell you how to raise your kids, and that's a good thing) to please please please (see, I can be nice when I try :) ) don't even bother your children with it. Let them make up their mind when they're old enough.

If you state your ideas publicly, you better be prepared to have them challenged and, in some cases, ridiculed. Isn't it awesome to live in a time and place where this is actually possible?

Have a nice weekend, and all praise to the whispering unicorn.

I hate to break it to you, but there is no whispering unicorn. But have you heard the good news? I used to believe that The Great Carp was just fiction, but then he saved me. I've never been so happy in my life when I converted to Carpism. In the name of the Carp, and of the fry, and of the scaley fish, scale-men.

[Ume_Chika]

His noodleiness deserves your respect and admiration, it can't be easy running the universe when you are made of spaghetti. http://www.venganza.org/

[Apostle of Carlin]

Well, look at my username here, what do you think?

Gray-ace, antitheist, humanist reporting in.

While I respect the mods in wanting us to avoid letting these forums degenerate into a cesspool of ad-hominems, I do have to say it.

Most of the people in my life and in the world who believe in religion mean well, and are perfectly nice folks, but my gripe is not with them, it's with the religious belief systems.

I think religion is nonsense. It's Bronze Age superstition, and it's not just that, it's also quite harmful. All you have to do is look at ISIS, Boko Haram, the Holocaust, the Ku Klux Klan, Jim Jones, the Crusades, the struggle between the Israelis and Palestinians, and what I'm seeing is a whole bunch of human suffering driven or aggravated by religion. That's my belief.

Throw in indoctrination of children by scaring the shit out of them with threats of Hell; teaching children to believe in Bronze Age myths about talking snakes, magic trees, and boats full of animals, instead of the theory of evolution, and of the formation of our universe and our world based on scientific evidence, thus making our society more stupid one child at a time; systematic exclusion of women from religious leadership positions, LGBT discrimination complete with citations from the Magic Book, and so on.

Really what I see religion do in our world is divide people against one another and give them a convenient excuse to be nasty to each other.

Maybe not all religion is toxic, but a huge amount of it is, and even the stuff that is not toxic is at best benign nonsense. Religion teaches people to believe what they're told to believe, don't ask questions, don't be curious, just accept the answers handed down to you whether they make sense or not.

There you have it. Why I'm an anti-theist.

[IanH]

Well, look at my username here, what do you think?

Gray-ace, antitheist, humanist reporting in.

While I respect the mods in wanting us to avoid letting these forums degenerate into a cesspool of ad-hominems, I do have to say it.

I think religion is nonsense. It's Bronze Age superstition, and it's not just that, it's also quite harmful. All you have to do is look at ISIS, Boko Haram, the Holocaust, the Ku Klux Klan, Jim Jones, the Crusades, the struggle between the Israelis and Palestinians, and what I'm seeing is a whole bunch of human suffering driven or aggravated by religion.

Throw in clergy molestation of children; indoctrination of children by scaring the shit out of them with threats of Hell; teaching children to believe in Bronze Age myths about talking snakes, magic trees, and boats full of animals, instead of science, thus making our society more stupid one child at a time; systematic exclusion of women from religious leadership positions, LGBT discrimination complete with citations from the Magic Book, and so on.

Really what I see religion do in our world is divide people against one another and give them a convenient excuse to be nasty to each other.

Maybe not all religion is toxic, but a huge amount of it is, and even the stuff that is not toxic is at best benign nonsense. Religion teaches people to believe what they're told to believe, don't ask questions, don't be curious, just accept the answers handed down to you whether they make sense or not.

There you have it. Why I'm an anti-theist.

Wow. You have the same reassons that led me to the decision to become an antitheist. :D

[Bronte]

Well, look at my username here, what do you think?

Gray-ace, antitheist, humanist reporting in.

While I respect the mods in wanting us to avoid letting these forums degenerate into a cesspool of ad-hominems, I do have to say it.

Most of the people in my life and in the world who believe in religion mean well, and are perfectly nice folks, but my gripe is not with them, it's with the religious belief systems.

I think religion is nonsense. It's Bronze Age superstition, and it's not just that, it's also quite harmful. All you have to do is look at ISIS, Boko Haram, the Holocaust, the Ku Klux Klan, Jim Jones, the Crusades, the struggle between the Israelis and Palestinians, and what I'm seeing is a whole bunch of human suffering driven or aggravated by religion. That's my belief.

Throw in indoctrination of children by scaring the shit out of them with threats of Hell; teaching children to believe in Bronze Age myths about talking snakes, magic trees, and boats full of animals, instead of the theory of evolution, and of the formation of our universe and our world based on scientific evidence, thus making our society more stupid one child at a time; systematic exclusion of women from religious leadership positions, LGBT discrimination complete with citations from the Magic Book, and so on.

Really what I see religion do in our world is divide people against one another and give them a convenient excuse to be nasty to each other.

Maybe not all religion is toxic, but a huge amount of it is, and even the stuff that is not toxic is at best benign nonsense. Religion teaches people to believe what they're told to believe, don't ask questions, don't be curious, just accept the answers handed down to you whether they make sense or not.

There you have it. Why I'm an anti-theist.

But there are magic trees :(

[Apostle of Carlin]

George Carlin called god a "stupid, incompetent father figure who doesn't give a shit" and I think you couldn't say it much better than that.

Being the Apostle of Carlin, I do have to point people to George Carlin's epic Religion is Bullshit rant - it explains my position on religion better than I can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE

In the Bullshit Department, a businessman can't hold a candle to a clergyman. 'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.

Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you.

He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

[skycake]

George Carlin called god a "stupid, incompetent father figure who doesn't give a shit" and I think you couldn't say it much better than that.

Being the Apostle of Carlin, I do have to point people to George Carlin's epic Religion is Bullshit rant - it explains my position on religion better than I can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE

In the Bullshit Department, a businessman can't hold a candle to a clergyman. 'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.

Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you.

He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

Aaaah, what a wonderful rant. The first thing I ever saw of George when I just entered his name on YT a couple of years ago. Just realized I misquoted him, though...shame on me :)

I may be embarassing myself here, but I think Carlin and Hitch influenced my view of humanity and life and all the rest more than anyone else I can think of :)

[Zerο]

His noodleiness deserves your respect and admiration, it can't be easy running the universe when you are made of spaghetti. http://www.venganza.org/

Cthulhu would eat the heck out of the FSM.

KNEEL BEFORE THE DARK LORD, PLEBS!

[Apostle of Carlin]

All Hail the Great Dark Lord Cthulhu! Worship him and He'll eat you first!

So don't vote for the lesser evil!

[dashcom]

I find the flying spaghetti monster hilarious. Yet I wouldn't want it as a car sticker or a shirt or what-have-you.

Religion is not something you can argue over the same way as other things; it defies reason, so to speak. Therefore, rather than shoving my opinion down people's throats, I find it easier to just let them believe in what I think is superstition. I have a religious friend that I get along with very well (granted, he is very liberal in his overall views). And usually I will refrain from speaking my mind on this topic unless it is directly adressed by another party - or - when it fuels disrespect/an injustice (e.g. homophobic signs).

To be honest, I don't think atheists need to worry all that much. I believe that religion will fade away over time, even if it takes a few more millennia. You certainly won't make it disappear by confronting stark believers with your atheism.

Teach children science and critical thinking. Angry atheist rants at the dinner table will serve only to hurt others.

PS: Sorry if this might be off-topic.

[Apostle of Carlin]

My gripe with religion is it has no self-correction mechanism. Sure, there's lots of errors and stupid things in science. But the scientific community has the system of peer-review, of open disclosure of research, and critical examination of each other's work. So when a scientist screws up, eventually that screw-up gets called out, everyone re-evaluates, and the body of scientific knowledge is improved.

Compare this to religion, where the core beliefs are handed down in a Magic Book that is Without Error. If you dare to suggest that there are contradictions in the Magic Book, or that the stories have plot holes, or worse, suggest that the prophets and deities depicted in the Magic Book behave like jerks, it's not the Magic Book that's in error, it's you. Automatically. Logic is set aside, critical thinking is shut off, you have to accept what you're given, and don't ask questions.

That's why religion "defies reason" - they're literally teaching people to accept nonsense, and punish the act of asking questions.

Faith is not a virtue. It's a nice-sounding word for shutting off your critical-thinking circuits and accepting nonsense.

[Næt.]

How familiar are you with religious history, Christianity in particular?

[DiEvAl]

All you have to do is look at ISIS, Boko Haram, the Holocaust, the Ku Klux Klan, Jim Jones, the Crusades, the struggle between the Israelis and Palestinians, and what I'm seeing is a whole bunch of human suffering driven or aggravated by religion. That's my belief.

All you have to do is to look here (okay, not literally here but a bit to the east; you get the point) to realize that religion is not necessary for a war. I doubt lack of religion would have been enough to prevent any of those events.

[Asterion Orestes]

His noodleiness deserves your respect and admiration, it can't be easy running the universe when you are made of spaghetti. http://www.venganza.org/

Down with the Sauceless Abomination!

Zero:

Cthulhu would eat the heck out of the FSM.

I was thinking the FSM could easily be one of those Elder Gods in disguise. Doesn't mean Cthulu wouldn't eat it, though.

[Apostle of Carlin]

All you have to do is look at ISIS, Boko Haram, the Holocaust, the Ku Klux Klan, Jim Jones, the Crusades, the struggle between the Israelis and Palestinians, and what I'm seeing is a whole bunch of human suffering driven or aggravated by religion. That's my belief.

All you have to do is to look here (okay, not literally here but a bit to the east; you get the point) to realize that religion is not necessary for a war. I doubt lack of religion would have been enough to prevent any of those events.

I didn't say that religion was the sole cause or necessary ingredient for all of these events, but I did say that they contributed significantly, and aggravated the situation. To me, religion is gasoline on the fire.

[Asterion Orestes]

skycake:

If religious (more precisely: monotheistic) people want me to take them seriously, they have to ... prove that this god-thing they're so crazy about actually exists.

Proof of propositions is pretty hard to come by. Other than in the mind, it seems to only exist on paper. (My presence in this forum, for instance, is shakier than that!)

Apostle of Carlin:

All you have to do is look at ISIS, Boko Haram, the Holocaust, the Ku Klux Klan, Jim Jones, the Crusades, the struggle between the Israelis and Palestinians....

Blah blah blah.

Regarding the Crusades: Here's a bit of perspective.

A general problem with the Litany of Violent Religion is the standard omission of atheist sects/philosphies. I recall arguing with Bad Karma here a few years ago about the true champions of belief-based slaughter. He didn't want to include those dialectical materialists because they didn't kill in the name of atheism--a distinction I find without much merit. Communists exterminated more than anyone who came before them, & it wasn't all that long ago.

Being the Apostle of Carlin, I do have to point people to George Carlin's epic Religion is Bullshit rant - it explains my position on religion better than I can.

Nowadays he's another one of those dead white males. His caricature wouldn't apply to some religions--Buddhism, say.

[Apostle of Carlin]

Ah, the argument that Communists killed for atheism. There's a problem with that. What the Soviet Communists did, especially during Stalin's rule, was attempt to replace the prevalent religions like Christianity, Juadism and Islam, with Stalin's own religion. Stalin ruled a classic cult of personality - a state religion where everyone worshiped him.

I don't know about you, but I don't worship God, I don't worship Stalin. I think it's dumb to worship anyone, real or imaginary. The atheist and humanist movements I'm a part of believe in improving the human condition, for ourselves and others.

As for George Carlin, he was speaking specifically about Catholicism, and Christianity in general - he was raised as a Catholic, then became an atheist. Buddhism is interesting in that you can be an atheist Buddhist. You can treat Buddhism as a philosophy, rather than a religion, treat the stories as metaphor, without believing in supernatural stuff, and be just fine with other Buddhists.

[Asterion Orestes]

Apostle of Carlin:

Ah, the argument that Communists killed for atheism. There's a problem with that.

As Bad Karma noted. To me that doesn't matter.

Stalin ruled a classic cult of personality - a state religion where everyone worshiped him.

Unfortunately he's had company. Fortunately, nowadays, only North Korea seems to function as a (very badly) living museum of Stalinism. But only this week some author said,"North Korea isn’t communist, it is a monarchy. It’s pretty feudal and Confucian." Still, it looks strange when a Stalinist dictator/East Asian despot wildly embraces a flamboyant US basketball star! Maybe he just wants to confuse us...

[Robin L]

Apostle of Carlin:

Ah, the argument that Communists killed for atheism. There's a problem with that.

As Bad Karma noted. To me that doesn't matter.

Stalin ruled a classic cult of personality - a state religion where everyone worshiped him.

Unfortunately he's had company. Fortunately, nowadays, only North Korea seems to function as a (very badly) living museum of Stalinism. But only this week some author said,"North Korea isn’t communist, it is a monarchy. It’s pretty feudal and Confucian." Still, it looks strange when a Stalinist dictator/East Asian despot wildly embraces a flamboyant US basketball star! Maybe he just wants to confuse us...

Wait, Confucian?!

[Guest]

Stalin ruled a classic cult of personality - a state religion where everyone worshiped him.

Unfortunately he's had company. Fortunately, nowadays, only North Korea seems to function as a (very badly) living museum of Stalinism. But only this week some author said,"North Korea isn’t communist, it is a monarchy. It’s pretty feudal and Confucian." Still, it looks strange when a Stalinist dictator/East Asian despot wildly embraces a flamboyant US basketball star! Maybe he just wants to confuse us...

Wait, Confucian?!

Here's what Wikipedia has to say on the matter...

Korean Confucianism

With Neo-Confucianism taken out of the school curricula and removed from its prominence in the daily life of Koreans, the sense that something essential to Korean history is missing led to a rebirth of Confucianism in South Korea in the late 1990s.^[7][2]

It is difficult to find accurate information regarding Confucianism in North Korean religion or practices.^[19] However, the Juche ideology does encourage the Confucian virtues of loyalty, reverence, and obedience.^[20]

>>> Juche (a.k.a. Kimilsungism)

So I guess one could say that Korea (both countries) is Confucian in the way that the US is Puritan and wide swathes of Europe are Catholic... true in broad strokes of cultural legacy/tradition, but not really a solid religio-cultural identity in modern times.

[Sally]

My gripe with religion is it has no self-correction mechanism. Sure, there's lots of errors and stupid things in science. But the scientific community has the system of peer-review, of open disclosure of research, and critical examination of each other's work. So when a scientist screws up, eventually that screw-up gets called out, everyone re-evaluates, and the body of scientific knowledge is improved.

Compare this to religion, where the core beliefs are handed down in a Magic Book that is Without Error. If you dare to suggest that there are contradictions in the Magic Book, or that the stories have plot holes, or worse, suggest that the prophets and deities depicted in the Magic Book behave like jerks, it's not the Magic Book that's in error, it's you. Automatically. Logic is set aside, critical thinking is shut off, you have to accept what you're given, and don't ask questions.

That's why religion "defies reason" - they're literally teaching people to accept nonsense, and punish the act of asking questions.

Faith is not a virtue. It's a nice-sounding word for shutting off your critical-thinking circuits and accepting nonsense.

You're throwing all religions into one fundamentalist pot and treating them as though they're all the same. There's nobody more critical-thinking than Jews and we know our holy book is full of contradictions; we ask questions, argue with each other, and don't accept anything we don't think bears its own weight. There are other religions which do so also. Faith is definitely not a virtue, and that includes faith in one's own rather insulting global theory instead of examination of and respect for different world-views.

[Asterion Orestes]

Robin L:

Wait, Confucian?!

Yeah--a cheap pun.

[Kappamaki]

My gripe with religion is it has no self-correction mechanism...

That's why religion "defies reason" - they're literally teaching people to accept nonsense, and punish the act of asking questions.

Faith is not a virtue. It's a nice-sounding word for shutting off your critical-thinking circuits and accepting nonsense.

You're throwing all religions into one fundamentalist pot and treating them as though they're all the same. There's nobody more critical-thinking than Jews and we know our holy book is full of contradictions; we ask questions, argue with each other, and don't accept anything we don't think bears its own weight. There are other religions which do so also. Faith is definitely not a virtue, and that includes faith in one's own rather insulting global theory instead of examination of and respect for different world-views.

It's probably true that the Apostle of Carlin was thinking about Christianity (Christians kind of dominate religious discourse in Colorado), and Christianity certainly emphasizes faith and has a long history of suppressing discourse and free thought (and occasionally promoting it). But while Judaism has an amazing tradition of religious discourse and criticism - for good reasons, I am much less likely to suspect Jews of being fundies out for my blood than Christians, so yay for that - Judaism is not entirely clean either. Jews who question tradition have been throughout history branded as heretics and persecuted by their communities, and in the rare cases where Jews become the majority religion in a region, they have proven themselves just as capable of intolerance as Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jains, atheists, and all other religions (or atheists) that find it so more difficult to love their neighbors in practice.

Taking the second most famous example, Baruch Spinoza, a Dutch Jew of Portuguese descent who is now renowned as one of Western civilization's greatest philosophers, suggested as a young man that the Pentateuch was not actually written by Moses, among other things. After escaping a retaliatory knife-murder attempt on the steps of the synagogue, he had a writ of herem thrown against him, totally exiling him from his community at age 23. These are the same people who escaped the Inquisition's forced conversion earlier in their lifetimes, and their reaction to a twenty-three year old with ideas that challenged received tradition (faith) was attempted murder and banishment from his family and friends. I doubt you could find a rabbi anywhere in the world who would condone that today.

Even though many religions have a strong tradition of supporting critical thought, and Judaism's is especially commendable, the statement "has a long history of persecuting dissenters" accurately applies to every organized religion with a long history. Religious individuals can be better than this, religion can be a powerful force for good, and organized religions as a whole can escape their histories of persecution and improve themselves. But no religion can claim to have never been a champion of intolerance and irrationality.

... Well, that certainly was Hot Box worthy.

[Sally]

Jews who question tradition have been throughout history branded as heretics and persecuted by their communities, and in the rare cases where Jews become the majority religion in a region, they have proven themselves just as capable of intolerance as Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jains, atheists, and all other religions (or atheists) that find it so more difficult to love their neighbors in practice.

I really can't think of anyone other than Baruch Spinoza who was persecuted by their communities, but am open to hearing about it.

Jews have never been the majority in a region -- any region, ever. Even Israelis, the only majority Jewish country, are mostly secular.

[Kappamaki]

Jews who question tradition have been throughout history branded as heretics and persecuted by their communities, and in the rare cases where Jews become the majority religion in a region, they have proven themselves just as capable of intolerance as Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jains, atheists, and all other religions (or atheists) that find it so more difficult to love their neighbors in practice.

I really can't think of anyone other than Baruch Spinoza who was persecuted by their communities, but am open to hearing about it.

Jews have never been the majority in a region -- any region, ever. Even Israelis, the only majority Jewish country, are mostly secular.

To be honest, I can only think of one other right now, and that's Jesus (in the story as told by Matthew), but that story is definite flamebait considering how it was and is commonly used by Christians to justify antisemitism, so I don't want to use it as an example. The only reason I know about Spinoza is that he wound up being a famous philosopher. A lot of less famous people I've never heard of had similar stories - we know they must have happened, because otherwise 'herem' would not be a practice with a name attached to it. I mean, I'd expect most people who get totally cut off from their communities and left to live out among potentially hostile medieval or early modern goyim don't wind up with successful careers as philosophers or in any field at all.

I don't think your second claim is accurate. Out of the Jewish population in Israel, the number that consider themselves "secular" is about 42% according to the 2010 census. I'd also argue that being secular doesn't make you not Jewish if you still consider yourself Jewish, so there's that. But if you completely discount secular Jews, 42% of 3/4 of the country is indeed less than half, so non-secular Jews would be merely the largest religious minority in Israel, not a majority. Either way, Judaism is definitely the "in-power" religion in Israel, and... it's not totally blameless for... things... there.

Here's an article with those 2010 census results:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3890330,00.html

If Israel doesn't count, Judaism was only very rarely in power. All I can think of are the Khazars and the Kingdom of Semien in the early medieval era. I think it's really awesome that there was both a Jewish barbarian steppe empire and a Jewish Ethiopian "Kingdom of the Gideons" that survived for centuries surrounded by more powerful Christian and Islamic neighbors. It's not really possible to tell whether Judaism was the majority religion for either outside the royalty, though, because we have very few records. Oh, and there's also pre-diaspora Israel. (I'm not always certain that ancient Israelite religion is really Judaism; it often looks like a more formative proto-Judaism to me, especially before the Babylonian Captivity.)

[Sally]

I don't think your second claim is accurate. Out of the Jewish population in Israel, the number that consider themselves "secular" is about 42% according to the 2010 census.

But I said "Israel", not just Jews in Israel. There are secular Israelis who nominally belong to other religions. Although there may not be an actual majority of Israelis who are secular.

The fact that Haredi only work about 50% of the time is shameful. At least they now are not entitled to get out of military service, but that means that the military may become more conservative, which in Israel with compulsory service hasn't always been the case.

But I guess this is off-topic...

[Kappamaki]

Ah, my mistake.

But I guess this is off-topic...

True that! I guess I just wanted to geek out a bit about the Khazars. ;)

[Dantius]

I will try to avoid getting into an argument on the belief in god, and will do what I can to focus on the core subject of the thread.

It could very well be that you have seen no proof of the existence of a creator whatsoever as you say. However, to assume that others have not seen any evidence is the irrational thing to do. These arguments you mention that have supposedly disproven a creator have also been discredited again and again, yet clearly both sides continue to remain stoic in their commitment to their beliefs. I for one do not presume to know why people believe as they do, and so I seek to understand their reasons first. Perhaps they may even convince me.

Believe it or not, there are people who have chosen, after lengthy reasoning, to acknowledge the belief in a creator or other deity. They are as fully capable of reasoning and rational thought as you are, but they have simply arrived at a different conclusion. Some, however, do agree that they believe based on "faith" alone, that they do not have proof, yet they believe it regardless. Some might say this is general foolishness, while others might say they simply "need" it in their lives, and some might even say that they are genetically predisposed towards spirituality. It has been argued that our genetics can influence our interest in spirituality, and there are some (atheists, mind you) who believe that this is a problem, that vaccines can be used to undo this, that spirituality is a "health" issue that must be "fixed". Does this sound familiar at all to you?

I believe people should be allowed to worship and believe whatever and wherever they want, and to express that belief however they choose as long as it aligns with the simple principle of freedom and non-violence. Of course there are people who will believe as they do and violate those principles in the process, but almost every group has those kinds of people. Do we not believe that people of different orientations be allowed to express themselves as they please? Why should religion be made into a "private" or "taboo" thing as homosexuality once was and sometimes still is?

Also, I highly disagree when you say that people should not "bother their children" with religion. If you have a set of morals and beliefs, do you not teach them to your children? Do you not tell them what you believe is right and wrong (if you have any children, that is)? The simple fact that you think they are wrong does not mean you, or anyone else, should have the authority to make such dictations. Because if you can, what is to stop others from doing the same? Regardless of whether or not you believe they are right?

Everyone is wrong about something. There are so many different belief systems for so many different things. Obviously, someone, somewhere has not got all the facts straight. To assume that we are somehow free from that flaw would violate the "no one is perfect" piece of wisdom that I love so much. It would constitute the near epitome of arrogance. If you conduct further research, especially into why some atheists convert, you may find their reasons quite fascinating. In conclusion, neither you, me nor anyone else is right about everything. Our beliefs are not somehow correct simply because they are our beliefs, and this applies to everyone.

Indeed, many religious people so greatly disagree with how others challenge their beliefs, but so do many atheists. I support the freedom of everyone to question the beliefs of others, but something we should not do is assume that everyone who disagrees with us is wrong from the start. Any belief, even the most insane of them all, can be true, because the universe does not care what we believe.

Personally, I support religion, even if I do not adhere to it.

[marchpie]

Personally, I support religion, even if I do not adhere to it.

I support freedom of religion, but I do not support religion.

(I also support the freedom to pass on one's superstitions, racial prejudices, phobias, and fantasies to one's children, but I think it would be better if we did not pass on such beliefs.)