Kanenas Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 I cannot tell you that for sure! There's two sides to the coin. On one side, if that were to be factual, it still would be no excuse and therefore irrelevant. But then again, you can only pay for damaged materials, not for damaged lives. All this time has passed - It's a little late now. I could not tell you what kind of reparations those who demand them are actually asking for specifically. But anything to further strain European relations... Even if everybody who ever harmed Greece in one way or another were to voluntarily pay the bill now, that still can absolutely not be the solution. One band aid after another does not cure the patient. Link to post Share on other sites
Zerο Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I cannot tell you that for sure! There's two sides to the coin. On one side, if that were to be factual, it still would be no excuse and therefore irrelevant. But then again, you can only pay for damaged materials, not for damaged lives. All this time has passed - It's a little late now. I could not tell you what kind of reparations those who demand them are actually asking for specifically. But anything to further strain European relations... Even if everybody who ever harmed Greece in one way or another were to voluntarily pay the bill now, that still can absolutely not be the solution. One band aid after another does not cure the patient. The point of the band aid is to stop the bleeding, the body is responsible for the healing. Similarly, the loans were to stop Greece form collapsing, the public and the politicians they vote in are responsible for economic reforms. Link to post Share on other sites
Kanenas Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 Yes, it's infected from the inside. And it does not help when someone tries to damage it from the outside as well! Link to post Share on other sites
Astrobot Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 (Greek here) : It's a shame they had to make a deal with the right-wing party "Independent Greeks", now it would be an exaggeration to call them "radically left" ,they're more like centrists. Nope. They are left with a little extreme right. Mixing radical left with far right doesn't make a centrist government. Link to post Share on other sites
Kanenas Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 Astro, I think she called SYRIZA centrists, not the equation of the coalition. While we're on topic. That a centrist or right winger would call SYRIZA radical or extreme left is nothing new, but from my left point of view... What qualifies them as radical? There was some part-time fascist (as long as it's convenient) saying Tsipras, as an atheist, should not be allowed to be a politician. First comment: "Greece, the country were being an atheist is radical. Greece, the country were separation of church and state is extreme". I'd laugh, but it's too sad. Like someone said earlier, if they went the abolish capitalism route, I'd understand the terminology, even though I do not believe at all that it is correct to differ between left and right by communism vs. capitalism. Also, ask the Antifa kids who they voted for. I did not hear SYRIZA one single time. Tsipras' personal views, yes, they would fit with the terminology. I hear his inspiration is Che (boo!) and I know he has ties to "old communists". Love or hate them, but I think of SYRIZA truly as a party, not an individual or a single idea. SYRIZA is not Tsipras. They are a totally mixed bag of treats. And no matter how much they could either fail or improve the situation, I am very confident that it's not their intent to bring Yugoslavian conditions to Greece. Link to post Share on other sites
Zerο Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Really not liking the way the debt negotiations are going. For a country almost entirely dependent on the EU, Greece is making quite a number of demands. Link to post Share on other sites
Kanenas Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Something has to change. Desperately. I don't want to speak in favor of the new government, as I don't trust them. But finally someone is trying something. Link to post Share on other sites
Zerο Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The problem is they want to try something with someone else's money. How are the other nations suppose to trust them when they're currently trying to renege on previous conditions that were agreed to? What's to stop them from doing it again? Electing a new government does not give you a blank slate. I don't necessarily disagree with Varoufakis and the changes he wants to make, but he needs to understand that Greece isn't in a position of trust or confidence. I just hope the rest of the EU makes it out of this okay. Link to post Share on other sites
Kanenas Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 What money? Monopoly money is worth more than the imaginary bills we are talking about here! It's not taxes or donations, it's bank money. It has nothing to do with you or me. And besides that, so many countries are in much higher debt than Greece and nobody tries to sabotage the well being of the citizens. Link to post Share on other sites
Zerο Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Uh yeah, it's not monopoly money given the panic rate Greeks are withdrawing from the banks. Now imagine that happening, but with no money for the banks to give. Inflation is going to be brutal since you'll obviously have to drop the Euro, and the new currency will be worth next to nothing. Link to post Share on other sites
loomborn Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I think it's a change for good whatever happens. As a Spaniard, I see there is too much shit and corruption in Europe now. Banks are harvesting entire countries, a load of tax havens for keeping your dirty money safe, sinister issues with Ukraine and Russia. Not paying debts is the best idea I've heard in some time, specially when those debts are not even yours... I don't know where it goes, but clearly it's a change and right now I love changes. Link to post Share on other sites
Zerο Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 That's not exactly a pragmatical or logical approach but whatever. Shrug, I would have been fine with the stronger EU countries letting the weaker ones fail and I'm sure they would have been to if their economies weren't so interconnected. Link to post Share on other sites
loomborn Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Yeah, it's not a very congruent way of thinking, but see that a person from these countries doesn't have any much to lose. You are not payed for unemployment anymore, you can't find any job because there is none, your governors don't want to create a decent economy and innovate... It's true we can make protests and demonstrations for the indisposition of our politicians to make a middle-class who cares not losing, but for different reasons, we never success even if we are persistent. I don't blame you if you insinuate we are useless. I think Spanish culture has remains of the indifference it had in the past, not a habit easy or quick to change honestly. And I agree you shouldn't care even if we are trying to so hard, but condemning an entire country to pay debts that are not even theirs, that are just the result of the dirty profit certain politicians and banks are making of it, without barely pursuing the bastards who directly ruined a nation, it just feels like an injustice for me as victim of that con. However, what you say makes me feel like it's all my fault, and in my opinion that's pretty low. :/ Link to post Share on other sites
Zerο Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Honestly I didn't mean to offend, my opinion is simply that in a team setting you don't necessarily need to be a contributor but you can't be a detriment. I don't think you're fully aware of the situation as well because based on the information I've read, in Greece's case it gets back the interest on its own loans as long as it follows the austerity measures. Basically, the EU banks aren't really profiting from this - it's a lifeline. Link to post Share on other sites
Kanenas Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 Shrug, I would have been fine with the stronger EU countries letting the weaker ones fail and I'm sure they would have been to if their economies weren't so interconnected. You greatly misunderstand the intentions of the Eurozone. We aren't buddies at all, unfortunately. And if we imagine a Eurozone consisting only of rich countries (nonexistent), or bluntly said... Countries which are not defined by and confined to their massive debt (I am looking at you, Germany and Italy), then they would gnaw at each other until there's "weaker" ones again. This is what they live off of. The citizens don't even understand this. We are so busy finding flaws in the neighbor or even on the other side of the continent that we never even dream of fixing or own. Every single European country is guilty of this. And it's frightening, because this shows you that the average European is racist as fuck, not just gullible, but also scavenging. It's a scavenging ploy, really. But they needed the help of victims willing to comply and that just happened to be the governments of people such as myself and my Spaniard sister loomborn right over there. Link to post Share on other sites
Zerο Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Shrug, I would have been fine with the stronger EU countries letting the weaker ones fail and I'm sure they would have been to if their economies weren't so interconnected. You greatly misunderstand the intentions of the Eurozone. We aren't buddies at all, unfortunately. And if we imagine a Eurozone consisting only of rich countries (nonexistent), or bluntly said... Countries which are not defined by and confined to their massive debt (I am looking at you, Germany and Italy), then they would gnaw at each other until there's "weaker" ones again. This is what they live off of. The citizens don't even understand this. We are so busy finding flaws in the neighbor or even on the other side of the continent that we never even dream of fixing or own. Every single European country is guilty of this. And it's frightening, because this shows you that the average European is racist as fuck, not just gullible, but also scavenging. It's a scavenging ploy, really. But they needed the help of victims willing to comply and that just happened to be the governments of people such as myself and my Spaniard sister loomborn right over there. I think you greatly misunderstand, I was never under the belief that the purpose of the EU is good will. As I made an example of earlier, I think of it as a team - there are (economic) benefits that come with it. Unfortunately, there are some members that are more of a detriment than asset in this case, geographical location aside. You also misunderstand the power of debt. The U.S. has $18 trillion in debt, it still has a top 2 economy in the world and it just keeps chugging along. Russia had $400 billion in reserve and very low debt, sanctions aside just the drop in oil alone would have been enough to put it in a recession - its economy is shit, it's a glorified gas station with limited diversity and rampant corruption (the latter of which would make the US and China pale in comparison). Debt alone isn't the only indicator, you have to consider the strength of the economy and the social infrastructure tied to it. At the end of the day, your own countries got you into the position where you needed bail outs - don't hold it against the rest of the EU (and Germany in particular) just because they had to contain the disaster. An interesting bit of information: http://www.businessinsider.com/greece-spends-90-years-in-default-2015-2 Notice: Spain isn't far behind, and it has twice the number of years as Germany - and the latter lost two World Wars. Link to post Share on other sites
Kanenas Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 If you call it a team, I'd be under the assumption that we work towards the same goal. To me it feels more like cling together, swing together. Thrown into the same bag, see who makes it out. Like I said, predators will find something to pounce on and some make very gullible prey; especially Greece and Portugal, in my opinion. I do believe that Croatia will suffer a similar fate. You are right in saying that in order for a situation to be made worse, it has to be there in the first place. And said situation was terrible in Greece form the get go, yes. I never could defend the actions (or refusal to even take actions!) of the government. But what has come from the outside is also absolutely unacceptable. The racist and nationalist outbreaks this god damn currency has sparked are unbelievable. I cannot speak for Italians and Spaniards, but if you were a Greek traveling or working in another country, you would understand this. You cannot possibly understand the circumstances, not because you're not European. But because you're not from a group of people declared free game. There has always been racism everywhere, but people now have the nerves to violate and murder others in the open streets. Often with the protection of the cops. This is what I lament much more than a shitty economy. Link to post Share on other sites
Earth Sprite Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I think it's a change for good whatever happens. As a Spaniard, I see there is too much shit and corruption in Europe now. Banks are harvesting entire countries, a load of tax havens for keeping your dirty money safe, sinister issues with Ukraine and Russia. Not paying debts is the best idea I've heard in some time, specially when those debts are not even yours... Yes. Iceland did that already, and that was a success. "Nobel laureate Paul Krugman later referred to as "doing an Iceland." Krugman, an admirer of Iceland's dramatic comeback, has recommended a similar policy cocktail for other nations in crisis. The rules are as follows: Allow your ailing banks to collapse; devalue your currency if you have one of your own; introduce capital controls; and try to avoid paying back foreign debts. http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/financial-recovery-of-iceland-a-case-worth-studying-a-942387.html Link to post Share on other sites
ThaHoward Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Considering the virtually non existent rents to Greece and the extremely long time they have to pay it back they are already in reality not paying their debts :p Link to post Share on other sites
SorryNotSorry Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I cannot tell you that for sure! There's two sides to the coin. On one side, if that were to be factual, it still would be no excuse and therefore irrelevant. But then again, you can only pay for damaged materials, not for damaged lives. All this time has passed - It's a little late now. I could not tell you what kind of reparations those who demand them are actually asking for specifically. But anything to further strain European relations... Even if everybody who ever harmed Greece in one way or another were to voluntarily pay the bill now, that still can absolutely not be the solution. One band aid after another does not cure the patient. I agree, the country's political culture has to change before Greece's finiancial problems can be solved. Unfortunately we're talking about a country with a political culture of doling out goodies to your friends and family once you get into office. The "tradition defense" comes into play... i.e., if new laws were to crack down and prevent you from, say, appointing your brother-in-law to be Duke of a Dirtpile, that would be considered selfish and very un-Greek... sort of like here in the US, if someone was to get elected to a legislative post and not cut any deals with lobbyists. Link to post Share on other sites
Kanenas Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 Yes, it's very nepotist and corruption is absolutely everywhere. And it's not even that Greece is much worse than other governments, it's just that they don't even hide it! Link to post Share on other sites
Vestal Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 I support Syriza! Link to post Share on other sites
Zerο Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Shrug, let's see them govern with Greece's own money. Link to post Share on other sites
Vestal Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 I have enormous respect for Yanis Varoufakis, Greece's finance minister. Link to post Share on other sites
Kanenas Posted April 22, 2015 Author Share Posted April 22, 2015 He is a good one. We will see how he does his actual job, but as a person, again, he is a good one. To me, he is not a politician. He is an individual. Can't remember when I last felt like that about someone involved with politics. "I have to learn how to be diplomatic!" :lol: Link to post Share on other sites
Vestal Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 He is a good one. We will see how he does his actual job, but as a person, again, he is a good one. To me, he is not a politician. He is an individual. Can't remember when I last felt like that about someone involved with politics. "I have to learn how to be diplomatic!" :lol: Mr Varoufakis is an AMAZING person! "I am a reluctant politician." http://www.thelocal.es/20150420/varoufakis-the-reluctant-politician Link to post Share on other sites
Vestal Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Syriza is the first of European anti-austerity parties winning national elections. Maybe the next will be Podemos (in English: "We can do that"). It was established only a year ago, and the polls told before Christmas, that it is the most popular party in Spain, already. Article of the co-operation of Syriza and Podemos by The Guardian today: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/26/spain-podemos-syriza-victory-greek-elections I find it fascinating and highly emotive to see a person from Finland talking about Podemos in an American forum. Thanks for posting! Much to my regret, Podemos (We Can) is not the most popular political option in Spain right now. The new leftist party has lost some support in recent months. Link to post Share on other sites
Zerο Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 It looks like it may come down to a referendum on austerity measures. I don't know why it took this long if neither side was willing to compromise. I'm starting to think this is just a way to put the onus of a default on the Greek government given the time needed to do a referendum and the billions of dollars in debt payments due in the next 2 months. Link to post Share on other sites
Tanwen Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I can remember a time when the UK Government was 'held to ransom' by the IMF (1976) - Greece is finding it even harder to keep to the dictats imposed. It's all very well to demand austerity measures but there's a limit to the measures the average person can cope with (will someone pllease tell Cameron) https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/greece-fears-cash-run-two-064002723.html Link to post Share on other sites
Zerο Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Well to be fair the Greek government was supposed to carry out numerous reforms in addition to the austere measures with the 2010 bailout. I'm honestly curious as to why the ECB/IMF/EU didn't critique on them sooner. They're seriously arguing about enforcing measures that should have been implemented years ago. Link to post Share on other sites
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