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Greece's new radical left government


Kanenas

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Greece now has a radical left government after the most votes went to SYRIZA. Over the course of the night it will be determined whether the new prime minister Alexis Tsipras and his party can reign as the absolute majority or if they need to partner with another party. Anarchists, greens, communists, extremist leftists, center leftists, apoliticals, all came together. During Tsipras' speech various flags were flown. Especially prominent were green and LGBT flags. Am I dreaming?

Every fourth Greek is without a job. The quality of the health system has rapidly declined. Alexis Tsipras not just promised to loosen the austerity measures, but to get rid of mandatory military duties and aim at more protective laws. He said the church will be separated from the state, finally. Years before he got all these votes he promised to work for LGBT and equal rights, same sex marriage and adoption if elected one day. The only other efforts I ever heard coming from politicians were about banning such practices.

In the 2012 elections SYRIZA lost to the center right, having the second most votes. On February 25th 2015, finally the corrupt two party system of chronic underachievers has been abolished. We are currently aiming at the 40% mark! Bitter aftertaste: The neo-Nazis have the third most votes. The center rights have the second most votes. A coalition could be formed with a centrist party, if needed.

I cannot know whether this is a victory or a plateau for Greece. But no matter how much or how little happens within the next few years... This is a very clear sign. For and to all of Europe. The rise of fascism is being countered, loud and bold. The TV news covered the admiring and joyful congratulations from fellow leftists of Spain and Italy. Tsipras verbally killed TROIKA during his speech. He said we won not for Greece, but for every austerity ridden nation. Hopefully his actions will speak even louder than his words. Whether you like it or not, something very historic has happened tonight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5CzCjkvF3A

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The politics and economics of Greece being in the Eurozone in the first place aside for a moment, I really do hope that the election of this Left-wing party does cause some sort of change within the EU. The introduction of QE by the ECB against the wishes of the German finance minister (Wolfgang Schable?) seems to indicate that something is beginning to change, but whether QE will have any effect - good or bad - remains to be seen; even its introduction is in doubt at the moment I believe.

While I believe that the EU is good overall (and I'm a British citizen, and we're not exactly known as an EU-friendly nation!), it doesn't really seem to be doing itself any favours at the moment. We are coming up to seven years after the financial crash that these problems stem from, and we still have problems like this (Yes, I'm aware there are deeper, longer-running problems under the immediate surface; letting Greece into the EZ in the first place when Greece was clearly unfit to be admitted at the time being the big one)!

Hopefully change will start to come soon....

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I did some research into the Greek banking sector and property market for work for a client last year and I remember thinking, how is this country even functioning still ? Anyway, I hope the Change in government brings some good to the country, although I don't think an anti austerity left wing political administration is what Greece needs right now.

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Exactly, Xavy! Everything is corrupt, slowed down and exhausting. So many young people left the country and the older people are too stubborn to change for the better. It's sad. Some of the world's finest doctors are Greek. They leave for all kinds of places within and far outside of Europe. In Greece, many doctors demand to be bribed before giving proper treatment. There was a woman on TV last night whose child has a chronic heart condition and the doctor refused to perform surgery because she could not afford the bribe (apart from the actual cost) he asked.

It's very important to note that we had pro-austerity governments over the last years and they gave us the final push off the cliff. They bent over backwards for everybody who was not affected by the crisis and that, I hope, has ended now. At least temporarily. There were few alternatives to the two party system; radical left or radical right. The rise of nationalism in Greece is a serious threat, so I am very glad that this time it was the other extreme end. It is unthinkable what will happen if Tsipras fails in the eyes of the people. That would open the gates for the far right parties!

While I believe that the EU is good overall (and I'm a British citizen, and we're not exactly known as an EU-friendly nation!), it doesn't really seem to be doing itself any favours at the moment.

The Euro is a failed experiment. It never meant to create unity. It was made with the intent to divert. Had it been meant to unite, we wouldn't be having a Eurozone, but all of Europe would have it. It was cunning and cold, carefully calculated. Those people who got Greece and countries such as Spain, Italy, Portugal and Croatia into the Eurozone deserve to be bludgeoned. I wish we had been smart like the UK. Not joining the Eurozone is the best thing you guys have ever done. Otherwise, I promise you this, you'd be under the boot of some nations plagued by seemingly simultaneous inferiority and superiority complexes. You have all the room you need to breathe, be thankful. It's important to mention that the only reason we got stuck in this position though is because our own government has always sabotaged us and most were stupid enough to vote for them again and again and again. Had Greece not been absolutely blind and deaf for so long, nobody else would now be in the position to take advantage of all of this so very much.

It is beyond unacceptable that the EU measures punish the honest citizens and protect the corrupt systems and practices. It cannot be that one country rules another, that we have packs of wolves forming, ready to gnaw on who they deem the sheep. And that is not as much northern vs. southern Europe, it is a handful of countries which see themselves in the position to do that. They are scared of Tsipras. Which is ridiculous. He is now simply a very burdened man. People on TV last night said, and I quote, that they will now all find work, their children will get better education and the banks cannot take their houses any longer. How? How on earth?

SYRIZA scored at 36,5%, two parliamentary seats short of being the absolute majority. Here comes the kicker. They formed a coalition with a populist right wing party. I was so enthusiastic last night and now this. But that was a very tactical move. That party was the only Euro-skeptic one not consisting of Neo Nazis. Tsipras apparently wants to stay in the Eurozone, but he also wants to get Greece to stand on it's own feet. And that is absolutely impossible with the current measures dictated by others. I guess he justifies this so he can more or less stick to his announcement of loosening austerity measures. I wonder what this means for all the promises he made about equal rights and education. I stand behind it, if things don't change for the better now, they never will. Nobody ever cared for equality of the sexes, minorities and queer people before. The Neo Nazis (who scored over 6%) say that "after the immigrants, the faggots are next". That beating up immigrants is fun, killing communists is work. They beat up children on the school grounds and murder people in the open streets. The cops escort them to safety afterwards. But we don't need Nazis for that. Greece is so cozy with heteronormativity and gender roles that I don't believe anything will ever change. Tsipras is that one tiny light at the end of the tunnel.

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Greece got itself into its debt issues, to seek debt forgiveness now after other EU countries bailed it out? Fuck that.

On paper, the EZ sounds like a very risky idea to me. Linking currencies between governments that are managed and operated under different laws is just asking for collective punishment. Especially if some countries who were allowed to join never met the "ideal" financial conditions to begin with (Greece comes to mind, I believe Italy as well).

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The Euro is a failed experiment. It never meant to create unity. It was made with the intent to divert. Had it been meant to unite, we wouldn't be having a Eurozone, but all of Europe would have it. It was cunning and cold, carefully calculated. Those people who got Greece and countries such as Spain, Italy, Portugal and Croatia into the Eurozone deserve to be bludgeoned. I wish we had been smart like the UK. Not joining the Eurozone is the best thing you guys have ever done. Otherwise, I promise you this, you'd be under the boot of some nations plagued by seemingly simultaneous inferiority and superiority complexes. You have all the room you need to breathe, be thankful. It's important to mention that the only reason we got stuck in this position though is because our own government has always sabotaged us and most were stupid enough to vote for them again and again and again. Had Greece not been absolutely blind and deaf for so long, nobody else would now be in the position to take advantage of all of this so very much.

I agree wholeheartedly. However, if the Euro goes down - temporarily or permanently - you can bet your bottom dollar that it will take non-EZ countries, like the UK and Denmark, with it.

On paper, the EZ sounds like a very risky idea to me. Linking currencies between governments that are managed and operated under different laws is just asking for collective punishment. Especially if some countries who were allowed to join never met the "ideal" financial conditions to begin with (Greece comes to mind, I believe Italy as well).

Again, I agree. The EZ was a political construct that paid no mind to the economic realities of Europe as a whole. And now some (read 'Germany', but I doubt they are the only one) balk at any kind of political union that might help to alleviate or remedy the sorry situation (NOT that I'm saying a political union is desirable, just that it's a possible solution).

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I worry that the new government in Greece might try to leave the Eurozone. That is not a recipe for progress. The EU needs to be strengthened in order to ensure that financial policies of its members states matches that of monetary policy. The dissonance between the two is what caused the disaster.

Still, the rise of neo-fascists in the West has been concerning. While we've failed to develop something that counters the Teabaggers here in America, I am at least glad that Greece is able to do this to an extent, especially since it is notably conservative compared to other European states.

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Doubt it, Augustus. They are critical (which one must be) but I think Tsipras does intend to remain in the Eurozone for... Whatever reason he sees fit. I really don't know. I am well aware of the fascist/nationalisti/populist rise in all of Europe, but at least in the north you have a little bit of protection. In Greece, most cops openly admit to having voted for the Neo Nazis. They stabbed a man in the heart on the open street a year ago, a lynch mob of 30 members. About 12 police officers watched from the other side of the street and canceled the emergency call that has been placed. While they made the murderer the scapegoat (who now gets VIP treatment in prison), all the members and the cops of course were "not identifiable". There were so many eye witnesses and damn TV cameras.

Greece got itself into its debt issues, to seek debt forgiveness now after other EU countries bailed it out? Fuck that.

On paper, the EZ sounds like a very risky idea to me. Linking currencies between governments that are managed and operated under different laws is just asking for collective punishment. Especially if some countries who were allowed to join never met the "ideal" financial conditions to begin with (Greece comes to mind, I believe Italy as well).

It's much more complicated than that and trust me, nobody bailed us out. We are only more miserable now than we have been before. Greeks did not want this blood money (that we also never saw a single cent of, by the way). I'd rather shoot myself. My father told me when I was little "If you don't work, you don't have to eat. Simple as that". I had more working hours in my teenage years than adult northern Europeans and yet I am called a welfare snatching lazy cheating wog by someone who could not even point to Greece on a map? Unfortunately the mistakes of the government are now carried on the shoulders of the citizens. That is not a Greek but a universal problem. There's countries in much greater debt than Greece, yet Greece has one of the most severe conditions because the economy completely collapsed.

We relied on tourism. It's a very sweet bonus and visitors are always more than welcome, but one should not rely on it. In my opinion, we have the worlds best olive oil, veggies and spices, but you don't make money with that like you do with cars. Young people leave the country and their family with a heavy heart because they have no perspective. It's very sad because Greece always had more talent than it could hold. These days, there's two prominent scenarios; overqualified people who work shitty jobs with irregular laughable loan and people (most with academical background) who have been unemployed for years. It basically doesn't matter whether you go to school any longer or not or what your life plans are. And that is the result of austerity. That it even could come this far is the Greek government's fault, though. Nobody can sell you if you're never bought in the first place. That the government agreed to those bail out packages (more like push further into crisis packages) is heinous. Had somebody offered me this austerity, I would have punched them in the face and immediately started to print drachmes that night and many people I spoke to agree.

Still, the worst part of all of this is the racism that it gave way to. Now everybody hates Greece (the less educated the person is, the merrier their hate speech) and Greeks hate everybody else. It's cancerous and I'm afraid it will stick. Germany is the leading force, but Belgium, Luxembourg and France are also to blame. And of course Greece!

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BerenErchamion

"Radical left"? As far as I can tell, they aren't interested in abolishing the capitalist mode of production anytime soon.

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II know. Tsipras was the member of communist groups in his youth. SYRIZA are the only party to at least pretend to care for LGBT rights and equality between the sexes and for minorities, so maybe that's why they have been tagged that. I don't see them as extreme or radical at all. They are the only humane party I can spontaneously think of.

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Syriza is the first of European anti-austerity parties winning national elections. Maybe the next will be Podemos (in English: "We can do that"). It was established only a year ago, and the polls told before Christmas, that it is the most popular party in Spain, already.

Article of the co-operation of Syriza and Podemos by The Guardian today:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/26/spain-podemos-syriza-victory-greek-elections

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Greece got itself into its debt issues, to seek debt forgiveness now after other EU countries bailed it out? Fuck that.

On paper, the EZ sounds like a very risky idea to me. Linking currencies between governments that are managed and operated under different laws is just asking for collective punishment. Especially if some countries who were allowed to join never met the "ideal" financial conditions to begin with (Greece comes to mind, I believe Italy as well).

It's much more complicated than that and trust me, nobody bailed us out. We are only more miserable now than we have been before. Greeks did not want this blood money (that we also never saw a single cent of, by the way). I'd rather shoot myself. My father told me when I was little "If you don't work, you don't have to eat. Simple as that". I had more working hours in my teenage years than adult northern Europeans and yet I am called a welfare snatching lazy cheating wog by someone who could not even point to Greece on a map? Unfortunately the mistakes of the government are now carried on the shoulders of the citizens. That is not a Greek but a universal problem. There's countries in much greater debt than Greece, yet Greece has one of the most severe conditions because the economy completely collapsed.

We relied on tourism. It's a very sweet bonus and visitors are always more than welcome, but one should not rely on it. In my opinion, we have the worlds best olive oil, veggies and spices, but you don't make money with that like you do with cars. Young people leave the country and their family with a heavy heart because they have no perspective. It's very sad because Greece always had more talent than it could hold. These days, there's two prominent scenarios; overqualified people who work shitty jobs with irregular laughable loan and people (most with academical background) who have been unemployed for years. It basically doesn't matter whether you go to school any longer or not or what your life plans are. And that is the result of austerity. That it even could come this far is the Greek government's fault, though. Nobody can sell you if you're never bought in the first place. That the government agreed to those bail out packages (more like push further into crisis packages) is heinous. Had somebody offered me this austerity, I would have punched them in the face and immediately started to print drachmes that night and many people I spoke to agree.

Still, the worst part of all of this is the racism that it gave way to. Now everybody hates Greece (the less educated the person is, the merrier their hate speech) and Greeks hate everybody else. It's cancerous and I'm afraid it will stick. Germany is the leading force, but Belgium, Luxembourg and France are also to blame. And of course Greece!

Yeah I have no doubt the hit to tourism via the 2008 global recession was a huge factor, but if even half the information I read regarding your public sector employees (benefits, hours, pay, % of population vs private sector) was true it was only a matter of time before everything unraveled - the global recession just made that slide more abrupt. I do recall an article a while back (when these austerity measures were being put in place) detailing the transit of educated and professional people fleeing to Germany for jobs so that probably didn't help Greece in the long term either.

By the way, you can't really fault Germany's bitterness. They're pretty much the anchor keeping the EZ stable, but at the end of the day, there really were several countries that shouldn't have been let in before they fixed their financial situations (Greece being one of them).

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Public sector is a disaster! Nothing ever gets done, maybe you're luckier with a bribe here and there. It's really absurd. They canceled TV and radio programs in 2013 and completely re-established them with mysterious methods. Corruption from within as a strong point, but it's not like anything has changed. Word on the street is because some channels spoke a little too critical of the government, they thought spontaneously eradicating them would work wonders. But I always said and always will say... Those people are one side. What really aches me is what this has done and will continue to do to the average person on the street. Greece has been found guilty of violating or not properly protecting the rights of minorities (LGBT, immigrants, other religious confessions, etc.) and nobody gives a fuck. We got bigger problems, they say. Oh, of course, are we republicans in the US now? "Tsipras should not concern himself with same sex marriage because, who cares? We've got more important things". Replace same sex marriage with any other issue a first world country would usually be discussing. It feels like there is no air to breathe, no room to improve. Tsipras actually chose to do only a political vow, which no other PM has opted to do before him. They all took the blessing of the Archbishop. Now I turn on my computer and the first thing I see on the internet is some sort of petty revenge protest saying "Tsipras, there is a reason there's a cross on the Greek flag bla bla bla" which then ends in a fascist tirade. I am absolutely stumped. An atheist PM, what's next, faggots marrying? And that is unfortunately a quote.

But yes, I do blame Germany for it's bitterness. Politics are politics and nothing else. They can hate the Greek government (which they still know nothing about) as much as they like, but that has nothing to do with the citizens. That people start being incredibly nationalistic and racist towards others is nothing short of a shame and no politician or government, media or lack of education can be held up as an excuse for that. Neither in Germany, nor in Greece.

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Princess of Ruin

(Greek here) : It's a shame they had to make a deal with the right-wing party "Independent Greeks", now it would be an exaggeration to call them "radically left" ,they're more like centrists.

Some of the members of our new government are very skilled and well-respected , so I have faith in them . After all , they can't be worse than that fascist Samaras.

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I'm not liking what I'm seeing from Tsipras so far in relation to using new Russian sanctions as leverage for debt negotiations. Honestly, debt forgiveness and bringing up Nazi Germany's war debts?

Fuck that.

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Germany never paid Greece full war reparations. Far from it. Though I would love to know how a € could pay for a life lost.. The suffering which Germany brought Greece during WWII is never mentioned in the history books. Neither are the heroic acts of martyrdom and resistance of the Greek citizens. It's irrelevant to today's situation, but I think that many people who must live with the bare minimum draw parallels, because we all remember how our grandparents and great grandparents suffered. It can't be the solution, no. But I understand where thoughts such as those are coming from.

Until last Sunday, there were only puppets on strings. The Greek government never intended to help the country, the politicians are fascist populists and opportunists. Tsipras, as much as people's opinions about him and his politics clash, is the first one to think things through and speak clear words. This is going to be controversial, no matter what approach he sees fit. I guarantee you that, he will be the scapegoat during and after all of it. He is a very stark contrast already, simply because he is saying something. Everything he does or even just says now will seem very drastic. Because there was no resistance beforehand.

I remember him seeking a dialogue with foreign politicians years before he was elected. And every single time they blocked him, no matter the topic. They probably hoped he would go away. No, most politicians could never hold a deep conversation, but they could at least pretend to care. Now, whether they actually finally listen to Tsipras or not, they have to think of a reply, at least. They cannot "whatever!" him any longer, like a 14 year old girl would do. He has displayed intellect and drive and if that is a threat to other politicians, they'll now have to step up their game. And whether I agree with his moves or not, I am very thankful for that.

I am absolutely delighted we now have professor Yiannis Varoufakis as the new minister of finances aboard. He is a mastermind who taught in the UK, US, in Greece and Australia. Worked in economics and the video game industry. He is also very humorous and approachable. I hope he is going to be one of the very few to use his gift to help others, not to manipulate. I don't trust a single one of those bastards, but Varoufakis is a stellar guy.

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The suffering which Germany brought Greece during WWII is never mentioned in the history books. Neither are the heroic acts of martyrdom and resistance of the Greek citizens.

"The song "Bella ciao" was sung by the anti-fascist resistance movement active in Italy between 1943 and 1945 [...] As a hymn of freedom internationally known it was intoned still recently in many events: during the 2011 movement Occupy Wall Street in New York, during 2013-14 protests in Turkey in Taksim Gezi Park, during 2014 Hong Kong protests, during the funeral of two victims in the Charlie Hebdo shooting in Paris (January 2015), in Greece 2015 political campaign of the Coalition of the Radical Left (SYRIZA) and in Syria by the Kurds." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bella_ciao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AStrn7jDqtE

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(me greek)

the extra leftists + communists and anarchists are believing in economic Utopias (Syriza, KKE etc)

the neonazis believe in their very own Utopia without immigrations and deferences (Golden Dawn)

and we also got the conspiracy theorists church-suckers brain-dead idiots (Ind.Greeks)

they all yell to liberals (who do not really exist in greek politics) that they are to blame.

we have the typical, right wind, racist, homophobes etc (ND) (claim to be neoliberals)

and we have the center lefts who got very few votes this year, (PASOK) (claim to be neoliberals)

and we got the centre ones (Potami) who don't belong anywhere

so in a sense most of Greeks voted for Utopias, racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, fascism)

the supposed leftists who gave the big talk before elections now shake hands with the conspiracy theorists

the PM gave a political oath instead of a church one when he took office, BUT before that he went and took the blessing of the head of the church v_v

The Ind Greeks idiot who was given the office military/defence (whatever the name of the office is) first thing he did was to remove the EU flag and bring in a Byzantine Empire one !

...

and with that I leave to go figure out how fast I can fleet this country

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I don't know anarchists who support left parties other than ANTARYSA, to be honest. I know many people who voted for them (their voting booths got damaged last Sunday!) and they have some LGBT supporters. I was very surprised and almost happy when I saw people swinging rainbow flags after Tsipras was elected. It's not much, but I never saw that before. KKE, in my opinion, is a total joke. You are spot on with ND. They are fascists pigs who cover themselves under "good and proper" values. Don't ask, don't tell. To potami would be a huge disappointment... I have no idea what people thought when they were voting for them! Did they trust them? Golden Dawn is the shame of Greek existence. How can one, as a Greek, be critical of present day Germany and yet admire the deeds and ideologies of Nazi Germany? Golden Dawn handed out leaflets in the 1980s of printings of the Hitlerjugend and what not. Only difference is that nobody took them seriously. They cannot be helped!

It's all gone downhill over the last years, but I think it was much worse before the elections. Even if Tsipras turns out to be just one of them... I love the fact that he speaks very clear words with the EU. And Varoufakis is a total champ, simply cunning. Let him be a bastard. All that Samaras and his fascist brigade ever did was bend over and deny it one day, then boast about it the next.

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Kanenas, I will have to disagree on Tsipras and Varufakis

the economic crush didn't fall upon us just one day in 2009, we all know what is going on in greece, the corruption, public sector, yet we scream and yell because EU won't give us any more money for us to spend without paying back.

By the way the WWII loans are a dead story, since couple of decades ago (if I'm correctly during junta) the greek government had signed that greece wont ask for that money any longer.

I personally (and that's where my disagreement is based) don't want to leave the EU nor the Euro. If the rest of greeks are prepared for any consequences if that happens, sorry but I'm not. I don't want to lose my house nor my money, nor to be afraid that anytime Golden Dawn will bring another military junta on us (because as long as we are under EU we secure a democracy, out of the EU we secure nothing )

or even worst, we stupidly start a civil war (history proves that we have done so in the past many times)

As for Potami, as long as it got together with Drasi, it got Drasi's voters.

Drasi and Fileleftheri Symaxia have been talking about separation of church and state, samesex marriages, and everything in between since forever.

it was also GAP who suggested and supported the same sex civil unions and general LGBT rights in 2006 (and Synaspismos under Alavanos)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Greece

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Well, Zero, it's the way it should be. I understand that it can look confusing at first, but we need diversity so we can even have a choice. For example, to me, democrats vs republicans is not even a real choice. The differences between those two parties, to someone who has more parties to choose from, is almost nonexistent. Yes, I think republicans are *insert insult of your choice*, but democrats are far from being leftists. The US two party system is downright pathetic. I know a single person in the US who votes green. And it's not like that would ever even make a difference. To add to that, I know someone who lives in Toronto (involved in politics) and they have told me that every Canadian "conservative" politician is more "liberal" than any US democrat.

I personally (and that's where my disagreement is based) don't want to leave the EU nor the Euro. If the rest of greeks are prepared for any consequences if that happens, sorry but I'm not. I don't want to lose my house nor my money, nor to be afraid that anytime Golden Dawn will bring another military junta on us (because as long as we are under EU we secure a democracy, out of the EU we secure nothing )

Yes, I understand of course. You are right in saying that and I think both of us are damn aware of nightmare scenarios including Golden Dawn. But I love to see someone mixing it up finally. I am far from agreeing with Tsipras on many matters, but I think it's better than what Samaras did. The question is, if not SYRIZA... What is the alternative? GD, I fear. And what is the positive alternative? In this moment, I cannot think of one. PASOK and ND obviously failed miserably. I do not watch TV really or am interested in celebrities and the media, so I do not know what kind of person Theodorakis is. But had this discussion with ANTARSYA voters about Potami. They all said that many involved with Potami are either indifferent towards or downright against equality. I heard many homophobic views coming from their voters.

I personally don't mind whether we stay or exit the Eurozone, I don't have strong feelings about either scenario. I just want everybody to have room to breathe and grow. But I do believe that had we left 5 years ago, we would now have something that... Maybe resembles an economy. But it's easy for me to say "could have, should have" now. It just feels like we are stuck.

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If Greece had left the EU 5 years ago it would have went bankrupt. You honestly think that would have been the better option? Think of this as a learning experience for fixing your economy, it was essentially a house of cards.

Shrug, I'm with Germany in this though it really did make a mistake in letting Greece join the EU in the first place.

By the way, I hate our (essentially) two party system here.

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I know, it's really detrimental. Greece had something similar, despite a big pool of available choices, for far too long. And those two parties also do not differ so greatly that you could say "Oh, thankfully X has been elected!".

It's not that one country decides who joins and who doesn't, so you can leave Germany out of this. It's supposed to be the European Union after all, not the European leaderboard. Many countries will suffer from having joined. Croatia joined not too long ago. I don't know what they were thinking. Leaving the Eurozone after having been in it is of course always risky and this is not to be taken lightly. Tsipras knows this very well. He is critical of the Euro, but not against it. I think that it would have been better to leave (definitely not now, but back in then) instead of taking the 5th loan which no one will be able to pay back. This burden is carried on the back of the citizens who never wanted this money, while the rich and corrupt are nowhere to be seen. And, again, ultra nationalist people everywhere in Europe have shot out of every hole since the crisis. Even more so in very wealthy countries than in crisis struck ones. The Eurozone really diverted people, which is a shame.

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I only mentioned Germany specifically because it has provided the largest portion of the loans, and like it or not, it's pretty much the lead EU country in terns of economy.

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Zero, Greece is one of the older members of EU, we didn't join now, but back in 1981. So it was not Germany who decided.

Kanenas, leaving EU would have destroy our economy for many reasons

1. we produce only 30% of what we eat

2. we do not have a heavy productions to support the economy (with just veggies and tourism you can't support anything)

3. we have a huge debt, and nobody would support us economically outside of EU.

4. Tsipras and his fellow guys believe that if we leave EU (now or 5 years ago) Russia will help up, because we are Orthodox like them. But completely ignore the signs such as:

  • Historically Russia never helped anyone but herself,
  • When in 2009 the debt was announced and Greece lost any trust, Russia was FIRST to do an oil embargo to us, and the oil that they didn't give us they sold it to Turkey. (that was out in Kouti tis pandoras back in that day, and a Russian friend of mine confirmed it from Russian news)
  • Russia hasn't shown any signs that they are going to help us in any way

Now even if we stay in EU, but EU refuse to gives us more money, Syriza will do what they have already said many times they will do, tax the ownership even more.

But if we look carefully, who are exactly those who own at least one house? THE middle class, and if they over tax ownership that gives no income what middle class will be? third class. I experience this already since I'm from a village near Athens so we villagers own lands, lands that back in greatgrandparents days were used for agriculture, and we still have vineyard and olives. But there are so few they are for domestic use only not selling, therefore no income comes from those the rest are just so small, you can't build on them. So anyway long story short we own land, it was Syriza's idea in 2013 to tax from first euro, AND to tax land as well for the thought an owner might have and plant imaginary carrots and get an imaginary income, for the THOUGHT of having such income we are TAXED for this imaginary income, even though the yards are not used at all. ND actually took the suggestion and made it a law. Me as a middle class citizen, have to pay so much tax (about 65% all in all) that makes it hard, but I have lived already a poor life before, when my mom didn't have enough money to by fruits for us.

Personally? Never went on vacation, never wore brands, I was even bullied in school for wearing cheap nobrand shoes, was never an outgoing family, we never went to taverns, or cafeterias, or night life etc or long trips, never had expensive car, never had expensive phones. The things that most greeks cry about being poor. All in all I never lived the big life, but I'm the one considered rich by Syriza's standards and I'm the one who will get an 80% tax soon when they will not have money to pay all the public sector workers they have promised to re-heir.

As for Potami, when I first heard them I really despise their homophobic and xenophobic idiots, the Drasi came in and they changed a lot of their views on the social matters and adopted and liberal views of Drasi.

Now on Who would be ideal, to me someone like Papadimos, if they had kept THAT government so longer time we might have come out of the crisis, but you see Samaras (just like Tsipras now) wanted the chair

When GAP asked them all but in 2010 to talk and work together, everyone even people from his own party(PASOK) rejected his offer. Then Samaras happily shook hands with PASOK as long as GAP was out and HE won the elections. Tsipras just did the same, took the chair and shook hands with the worst possible party the brain-burnt ind Greeks, racists, homophobes, xenophobes, conspiracy theorists, etc

not to mention how many from Syriza had called Soible "crippled" and discriminated over his disability, or pfft how many "go get cancer" "why dont you die" phrases have been out of Syriza and Antarsya supporters mouths to everyone who is not agreeing with them.

so I'm not expecting much on the social part of governing from Syriza now especially with Ind Greeks around them.

ND was baaaad very bad but I'm not really sure Syriza will stand up on their pre-election social words

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I never said I want to leave the Eurozone, I said I have no personal strong feelings about either scenario. Because, when I am being honest... I have a bad feeling about every scenario I can imagine. Like you, I had a modest childhood and my mother struggled to bring me up. I know exactly where you are coming from. If you don't mind me asking, who is your party? I'm green through and through. Yes, looking back now, Papadimos deserved the chance. But I only see it that way now, four years ago I was frustrated with interim governments. You always need to fall onto your face at least once!

SYRIZA won't stand up to social issues for two reasons, I believe. It was frustrating to see how quickly the tone changed from "We will legalize same sex marriage" to "We will have to see if we can punch through civil partnerships, Orthodox church, respect, tradition, values, bla bla". First, they claim there are more important issues, which you can hear in every country once minorities demand equal rights. Again, it was amazing to see rainbow flags flying after Tsipras was elected, but I believe that will remain the only instance of happiness in a long while. Second, exactly like you said, Independent Greeks party will throw themselves in front of the bullet if they have to, populist swines. I understand why Tsipras chose that coalition, but it was a disastrous move.

I didn't turn the TV on the past few days. It was getting frustrating. Has Tsipras ever made comments about speculating for help from Russia? I really can't imagine that and desperately hope it's not the way it is. Someone who claims to be interested in equality and human rights cannot share a bed with Putin. After all, it is more than sad that we need help from anybody. I see all of those unpayable "loans" as blood money and nothing else.

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Oh I didn't mean you wanted to leave EU, I just said what leaving EU can mean ^^

and I agree on all of the rest

my party is Drasi, sadly this time around the only way to put some drasi people in the parliament was through potami, v_v before Drasi I was for Pasok LOL (yes I'm one of the few GAP supporters :P )

anyway I'm liberal/libertarian

I want human rights, and a working economy. You can never find everything in one party so I go with what program includes the most of my personal views.

As for Tsipras I don't know if he is the one talking about mother Russia or his fellow Syriza people but they have said so as a party.

and I don't have a TV, so my information comes from the internet form different sources.

Also I have studies in the economic field so I know couple of stuff about economy, and I have also studied political science for a semester when I went on an erasmus program. So hardly anything I say is based on personal opinions of mine :)

I also grew up in the golden age of the 90s pfftt with all the people living the big life with money they didn't have (using credit cards and bank loans) it was the time also I lived the poorest cause the fortune that eventually came to my mom's hands was owned by my grandparents.

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General Patton

Germany never paid Greece full war reparations. Far from it.

Didn't a lot of that have to do with how Germany was punished too heavily after WWI with Versailles, so they didn't want to do it again after WWII?

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