Help me to understand

[SuchFun]

So the first thing I want to say is that I totally respect people who choose to identify as a gender other than the one that their genitals say they are (that sounds wierd...). I just don't understand why they do.

I know some people who ask to be called by a different name that is used for the other gender (such as a Physically male person wanting to be called rebecca) and prefer to be referred to as the other gender, but I'm a bit scared of asking them why incase they think I'm prejudiced or something, so I decided to ask here, since everyone I've seen on these forums so far has been really nice and understanding.

Is it that you feel as though you apply more to the other gender's stereotypes and places in society? Or is it something else?

I know that this kind of thing can be very difficult to explain to someone else, so it's fine if you don't think you can explain it. I'm just curious and I want to have a better understanding of different ways that people decide to define themselves.

Also, on some polls and things I see people refer to a third gender. What is it? And again, why?

I'm really sorry if you get offended by something in here, but as I've said I really just want to expand my own knowledge and there's no better way of doing that then asking people who know.

Thanks and have a lovely day :)

[Emery.]

I can't speak for everyone, but it's great you ask and try to understand :) Your curiousity is totally understandable.

Con short, for different people the reasons are various. I'd say it is hard to exlpain, because it is really emotional. Why the emotions about gender are arranged one way or the other, is individual. Rebecca mentioned by you as an example might just feel awfully bad when referred to as John (or whatever male name she was given). The female name has for her a positive conntation, and the male one - negative. She associates a lot of unpleasant things with it, probably in an unconscious way.

I hope this helped.

[SuchFun]

Thanks hummingbird :) that makes sense

[Zapstileon]

The 'why' is tricky. It implies there's a lot of choice to this, but often, you may find, that there really isn't. Imagine if people demanded of you that you identify as male. You wouldn't know how. It's the same for those who identify as Rebecca when they were born John. There isn't a lot of choice for them. They don't know how to be John, nor are they comfortable with it. It's a bit society and a bit other things. A giant cocktail of psychological and sociological factors. Third gender (and any other gender) opens up the possibility for humans to go beyond male and female. We're thinking, reflecting individuals. Why shouldn't we have any gender we like? Why restrict us to only two?

I have come to see gender from a personality standpoint. A large part of my personality is what people call male or masculine. Kind of like if a part of your personality is to be positive and happy, you might not want to change that part of yourself, even if you could. You like being happy and positive. You could probably learn to be a realist, or to see everything in a negative light if everyone around you told you that's what was expected of you, but you wouldn't be as comfortable with that as you were when you were just being yourself.

But it's a little more than that too. A big part of it has to do with society, of course, especially for people where there's a big gap between the genders. For me, society is welcome to go something itself. I've never conformed to gender roles anyway. If I want to punch some harassing idiot in the face, I'm going to do that, whether that's expected of me or not. So for the larger part, I could live by the gender role assigned to my biological sex and be done with it.

But there's this... wish. I don't know. Imagine yourself longing for something that will always be out of your reach. You can see it clear as daylight in your mind. That's something you want from life. Maybe you want to be married and have kids. Your own kids. And then you can't for some reason and it bothers you. It fills you with this longing, this feeling of sadness that you can't quite explain. Everyone around you tells you that "well, you can always adopt..." But that wouldn't be the same. What I feel is a lot like that. I can always take all these steps to be more of the gender I identify with, but for me, it wouldn't ever be the same as the real deal. For some it is. And I'm happy for them. But I'm just stuck here with that longing for something I can't have.

That's why it helps with another name, with another presentation. Because at least while you're among people, you can pretend for a little while that you have the life you want. That's why Rebecca would rather be Rebecca than John. Because it takes a little of her longing away. It takes a bit of that sadness. Even if she comes home later that day and sees herself in the mirror or in the shower and knows she was born John, being called Rebecca gives her that little ray of happiness through the day.

[Rimethurs]

I can only respond from my point of view and I am heavily biased towards the biological aspect and will probably make the people who believe in gender roles mad. Like they make me mad. We should probably stay away from each other.

Why do you identify as female? You just do right? It's the same with us. I've heard a lot of cisgender people claim to not know how it feels like to be their gender. Actually, they do. They just don't notice it. It's like having an appendix. When everything is fine, you don't notice it's there. When something is off, you notice it. This isn't just limited to trans people. David Reimer was a raised as a girl in an experiment to show that gender is learned. It didn't work, he identified as male, and he later killed himself. A woman tried living as a man for a year as a social experiment. She quit early and had herself committed due to the psychological toll it took on her. An actress who played a transexual character cried everyday they put the prosthetic dick on her even though she knew it would come off.

What people have trouble grasping is the idea that gender isn't roles or stereotypes or any of that nonsense. It's simply the little voice inside one's head that tells them "I'm a boy," "I'm a girl," or whatever they feel like. We can't describe how it feels to be our gender anymore than anyone else can. It just is.

(Note: not all trans people get dysphoria and the ones who do get varying levels of it.

Also, cis just means "on the same side of" and cisgender just means their gender is the same as the rest of their body indicates. I know some people take it as an insult for some reason. Apparently, some people on tumblr use it as such or something? I avoid tumblr. Anyway, it's just the opposite of trans. That said, we're all just people and use of the words cis and trans in reference to gender is only really useful in conversations like this where the distinction is useful.)

Some people do feel that gender roles have an impact on how they identify. Personally, I think they're on the same level as creationism and am pretty passionately against them. I am and will be extremely insulted when people assume that my gender is due to that crap.

Actually, trans people are often faced with a double standard. For example, a cis woman can be as butch as she wants, as much of a tomboy as she wants, wear whatever she wants and still be considered a woman, but if a trans woman does, her gender will be questioned.

As I'm sure you know, brains are physical, biological organs. Sorry to state something so obvious, but you'd be surprised how many people think they're some abstract thing that doesn't really exist. I know I am. Anyway, human brains have structures that are sexually dimorphic (for example, the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis - BNST). Studies so far have shown that trans people have structures similar to those of the gender we identify as. This is thought to happen due to what hormones we were exposed to at certain times in the womb. More studies still need to be done, but this is what the evidence has pointed to so far.

I also want to point out that we can't choose how our brains are structured.

Contrary to popular belief, the sex of a child is determined more by what hormones they are exposed to in the womb than their karyotype. Usually, they match, but not always. After all, no biological process is perfect.

Also, as we should know (but many people don't for some reason despite the obvious existence of intersex people), sex itself isn't binary. There are plenty of variations. I'm inclined to believe gender is also not as binary as people think. And this is what leads to third gender people as I understand it. I'll leave it to them to answer that though.

This is the point of view of a brain fanboy who is studying biology and thinks brains are the most fascinating things ever and wants to learn all the things.

[Zapstileon]

^ That entire post. I love it. This is kind of why I would like the concept of gender to just go away. Or merge with personality and let people be who and what they are without everyone assuming something just because. I almost think that clinging to gender is a bit like conservatives clinging to the anti-gay movement because they're scared of change.

[SuchFun]

Thank you all so much for replying. I think I'm beginning to understand a little more now. I don't think I ever quite made the distinction between gender and sex, but I'm learning that there's a difference. :)

[Emery.]

^ That entire post. I love it. This is kind of why I would like the concept of gender to just go away. Or merge with personality and let people be who and what they are without everyone assuming something just because. I almost think that clinging to gender is a bit like conservatives clinging to the anti-gay movement because they're scared of change.

I'm totally the same mind.

[Rimethurs]

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure what the difference between sex and gender is. Why are some organs used to determine sex, but not the brain? Why are those organs seen as more important to one's sex than the brain is? The brain is the most important organ of our bodies and the seat of everything we are that matters.

I'm heavily biased though.

[butterflydreams]

First, @SuchFun, you never have to feel bad about asking questions. As long as you're respectful and coming into it with a curious and open mind, no one worth your time is going to be offended or upset. If they are, that's their problem, not yours. I suspect most people would almost fall over themselves to help answer your questions. After all, it's in everyone's best interest to have more understanding than less :)

There's a lot of really great commentary in this thread already, so I'll try not to rehash anything.

But it's a little more than that too. A big part of it has to do with society, of course, especially for people where there's a big gap between the genders. For me, society is welcome to go something itself. I've never conformed to gender roles anyway. If I want to punch some harassing idiot in the face, I'm going to do that, whether that's expected of me or not. So for the larger part, I could live by the gender role assigned to my biological sex and be done with it.

I think overall, I'm in agreement with this, but I want to point out that not everyone has the ability to simply "not conform" to gender roles. There are a myriad of reasons for this. If it were that easy, I would've done it ages ago, and I probably wouldn't find myself in the identified location that I am now. I don't want to take flak for this, so please realize this is my opinion, based on my life, and my experience, but I think DFAB people have a much easier time bucking gender roles. That in and of itself is an indictment of gender roles, but it doesn't make it any less true. In many ways, we have feminism to thank for that. I wish we could realize that DMAB people really need the same thing to be done for them.

Beyond that though, even an individual's personality comes into play. For most of my life my primary objective was not be noticed. I learned very early on that being noticed led to pain. Emotional pain. Physical pain. You'd better believe that I did everything I could to minimize that. Unfortunately, that meant conforming to (as best I could anyway) cultural gender roles. Talk about a recipe for sadness and depression over the long term though. Being able to accept my internal gender for what it is, even if actualizing it is extremely difficult, is a huge part of reducing my sadness. Society and culture is what it is, gender roles and all. My best bet is to play ball and identify the best way I can.

But there's this... wish. I don't know. Imagine yourself longing for something that will always be out of your reach. You can see it clear as daylight in your mind. That's something you want from life. Maybe you want to be married and have kids. Your own kids. And then you can't for some reason and it bothers you. It fills you with this longing, this feeling of sadness that you can't quite explain. Everyone around you tells you that "well, you can always adopt..." But that wouldn't be the same. What I feel is a lot like that. I can always take all these steps to be more of the gender I identify with, but for me, it wouldn't ever be the same as the real deal. For some it is. And I'm happy for them. But I'm just stuck here with that longing for something I can't have.

Ok, now this is perfect stuff. And the fact that you used the analogy of having kids hits even closer to home for me personally. For a good number of years now, I've lamented how pointless my life seems because I'll never get to have the experience of having my own child. Like, what an amazing experience, to create life like that, but I can't have it. I can never have it. Just like I can never be female. No matter what I do, or how hard I try, it's asymptotic. Closer closer closer, but never 100%. No matter how tiny the remainder it would still be there, forever taunting me. If I'm totally honest, it's the sole piece that makes me hesitate about a transition. 0.2% might as well be 100%. Unnoticeable to others maybe, but a constant nagging splinter for me.

That's why it helps with another name, with another presentation. Because at least while you're among people, you can pretend for a little while that you have the life you want. That's why Rebecca would rather be Rebecca than John. Because it takes a little of her longing away. It takes a bit of that sadness. Even if she comes home later that day and sees herself in the mirror or in the shower and knows she was born John, being called Rebecca gives her that little ray of happiness through the day.

Yes to this too, though it's flipped for me. During the day, I go about my life. Same as I always have. When I come home, I can be me. I can wear what I want, feel how I feel, be who I am. The internet helps too. I can be whomever I want on here with far more ease than I can in real life. People respect me for it as well. What a critical blow-off valve to have in my life. I've noticed I've become markedly more relaxed and at peace with myself even in real life since allowing myself to be ME online.

Many apologies for so much writing, but I'd still like to address some of SuchFun's initial questions.

Yes, it is a very difficult thing to explain to others. It's difficult to explain to myself. It's feelings I have. It's experiences I've had. It's the future I want. It's knowing that I don't want to be a "man" and will naturally resist that no matter what you do. It's being horrified to find out that I sounded so much like my dad on the phone, my mom couldn't tell the difference :(. It's being so ashamed of having any semblance of facial hair that I resorted to painful tactics to remove it in secret when I was a teenager. It's always feeling like I never belonged with any group of guys. Not the nerds in the computer lab. Not the guys on any baseball team I ever played on. I'm 26 years old. When am I going to meet this group of guys that I'm supposedly supposed to fit in with? Even the handful of best friends I've had who were male. The differences, while ostensibly minor, felt incredibly stark to me. It's wishing that girls would accept me as one of them and not shut me out because, "you're a guy, you wouldn't understand". It's always knowing that making friends with girls was so much easier for me, and far more natural. As though any guy I attempted to befriend would somehow know something was not right. It's hating my face in mirrors and photos and feeling like no picture ever "looks like me".

I could probably go on and on and on, but honestly, doing so would only start to make me feel sad, so I hope I've conveyed even a touch of understanding about what gender and "all that stuff" is like for me.

[SuchFun]

Rimethurs - as far as I can tell (and I've just started learning about it today, so I could be wrong) sex is "i have X chromosomes, so I am of the female sex" or "I have both X and Y chromosomes, so I am of the male sex" it is what you physically are.

Gender is what the brain has to say about it. The way I'm currently understanding it (again, might be wrong, so correct me if you know better) is that it's a bit like sexuality. You can't choose what it is, but you know if it's not what's considered normal.

So basically as far as I can tell, sex is what you physically are, and gender is what you mentally are. I agree that the brain is the most important organ, because it controls everything else, but some peoples brains say "I am female" whereas their bodies say "I am male" (or the other way round) and still other people feel like they aren't either of the genders and think of themselves as ungendered or the third gender.

Neither your sex (unless you have surgery) or your gender can change, but sometimes they just don't add up, and that's how I perceive the difference

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but having read through the above posts, this is the general idea I've been getting.

[Light02]

Rimethurs - as far as I can tell (and I've just started learning about it today, so I could be wrong) sex is "i have X chromosomes, so I am of the female sex" or "I have both X and Y chromosomes, so I am of the male sex" it is what you physically are.

Gender is what the brain has to say about it. The way I'm currently understanding it (again, might be wrong, so correct me if you know better) is that it's a bit like sexuality. You can't choose what it is, but you know if it's not what's considered normal.

So basically as far as I can tell, sex is what you physically are, and gender is what you mentally are. I agree that the brain is the most important organ, because it controls everything else, but some peoples brains say "I am female" whereas their bodies say "I am male" (or the other way round) and still other people feel like they aren't either of the genders and think of themselves as ungendered or the third gender.

Neither your sex (unless you have surgery) or your gender can change, but sometimes they just don't add up, and that's how I perceive the difference

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but having read through the above posts, this is the general idea I've been getting.

Yep, exactly.

[Rimethurs]

Except no one actually knows for sure what their karyotype is unless they have it tested. For example, there have been instances of women who had no clue they had Y chromosomes because their phenotype (both brain and visible sexually dimorphic organs anyway) was female.

Other than that, yeah pretty much. I just don't understand why people think my genitals should define my sex than my brain does. (I don't know for sure what my karyotype is either.)

[Zapstileon]

I think overall, I'm in agreement with this, but I want to point out that not everyone has the ability to simply "not conform" to gender roles. There are a myriad of reasons for this. If it were that easy, I would've done it ages ago, and I probably wouldn't find myself in the identified location that I am now. I don't want to take flak for this, so please realize this is my opinion, based on my life, and my experience, but I think DFAB people have a much easier time bucking gender roles. That in and of itself is an indictment of gender roles, but it doesn't make it any less true. In many ways, we have feminism to thank for that. I wish we could realize that DMAB people really need the same thing to be done for them.

I always struggled with this conforming business myself, actually. It's a very recent accomplishment to have stopped caring. It came with a lot of resentment against humanity, society and the government though...

But that's not what I wanted to say. I wanted to agree with you that it is often a lot easier for DFAB's to present masculinely than for DMAB's to present femininely. For one, nobody ever guessed I was anything but a tomboy. Even now, they think I'm my mother's beautiful daughter (who looks extremely good in a suit, but nobody says that out loud). I get no heat for cross-dressing, because it's not a generally weird custom for females in larger parts of the first world to present masculinely. And I've said before that if I were born a male, I'd be a rather camp male anyway, so I basically shop a little like a stereotypical, feminine, gay man would. People just think me a little masculine, that's all. But for a male to do what I do... I can imagine the turmoil that would cause. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Females may be equal to males, but males are not equal to females (they are shoved ahead, somehow). We need to pull the male gender off their high pedestals. It's as if it's not okay to want to be female. That is to say, it's okay for female to want to be male because male = strong, independent, etc. It's not okay for male to want to be female because female = weak, sensitive, etc. Which is some sort of messed up social construct that needs to go. But that's all society, and doesn't even remotely answer any questions... :P

[butterflydreams]

Females may be equal to males, but males are not equal to females (they are shoved ahead, somehow). We need to pull the male gender off their high pedestals. It's as if it's not okay to want to be female. That is to say, it's okay for female to want to be male because male = strong, independent, etc. It's not okay for male to want to be female because female = weak, sensitive, etc. Which is some sort of messed up social construct that needs to go. But that's all society, and doesn't even remotely answer any questions... :P

I'm not sure I understand how males are "shoved ahead" nor do I agree that the reason it's "not ok" for males to want to be females because female = weak. There are weak men all over the place and no one really cares. I think it has more to do with homophobia than anything. At one time, I think men and women were both stuck in gender roles pretty hard (for whatever reasons). I may not agree with a lot of feminism, especially the modern stuff, but one thing it did for sure was break women from those traditional gender roles very thoroughly especially in the first world. Men are still stuck though. It breaks my heart that modern feminism doesn't seem to acknowledge that, or seem to want to do anything about it. I mean, it did it once, why not do it again? Or if it can't or won't, kindly step aside and let some new movement do it. I wonder how many problems that modern feminism is trying to solve would magically go away if men were broken free of their gender roles.

I have a sneaking suspicion that it's not men who are averse to being freed from their own gender roles. That just doesn't make sense. Maybe we have to start with acknowledging and helping transwomen/transfeminine people become far more widely accepted than they are today. I shouldn't have to be scared shitless about going out into the world as a cute lady-person that doesn't pass 100%. Just the fact that I have to even consider that makes it really hard to identify this way. Do I have hesitations about being a transfeminine person because I have actual hesitations, or because I'm afraid of what it will mean for my interaction with the world? Lots of soul-searching has brought me to the conclusion that it's the latter. And if I feel that way, you can bet there are others.

Anyway, I've made it a point to stay out of that feminism thread in hot box because I know it's a topic that often makes me feel excluded and upset. And it really doesn't have much to do with this thread, so I don't want to get too tied up in it here :)

[R_1]

I've heard a lot of cisgender people claim to not know how it feels like to be their gender. Actually, they do. They just don't notice it. It's like having an appendix. When everything is fine, you don't notice it's there. When something is off, you notice it. This isn't just limited to trans peopl.

Problem is that gender isn't physical at all though there may be physical processes behind gender while an appendix is something that can be felt as there's nerves and all. There's no evidence to suggest that all cis-individuals feel a gender, and you do not represent all cis-individuals. When a cis-individual says "I don't get or a feel a gender", it means that they don't really feel anything about gender and the concept isn't applicable to them as it does not exist as part of them, and you can't really provide evidence against that.

As I'm sure you know, brains are physical, biological organs. Sorry to state something so obvious, but you'd be surprised how many people think they're some abstract thing that doesn't really exist. I know I am. Anyway, human brains have structures that are sexually dimorphic (for example, the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis - BNST). Studies so far have shown that trans people have structures similar to those of the gender we identify as. This is thought to happen due to what hormones we were exposed to at certain times in the womb. More studies still need to be done, but this is what the evidence has pointed to so far.

I also want to point out that we can't choose how our brains are structured.

We know that the human brains are sexual dimorphic, but there exists cases that can be made to suggest that the brain should be considered more or less intersexed, and one example of that case is the documentary named "Male or Female? Brains are Intersex"(DOI:10.3389/fnint.2011.00057) made by Daphna Joel which sums up the argument for that. Another thing to consider is behavioral differences and mental capabilities, and the reason why one is to consider that is to look into consideration of functional differences which arises from observed differences. A PNAS study named "Age group and sex differences in performance on a computerized neurocognitive battery in children age 8−21." points to the evidence that shows the differences in the mental abilities between biological females and males are marginally small suggesting that observed differences does not lead to functional differences. We also have a study done by Reis and Carothers that points to evidence that males and females don't really behave all that different. All of those implies that there is very little amount of functional difference between males and females in averages, and even averages cannot allow you to predict who's male/female.

[Rimethurs]

I actually don't represent any cis people since I'm trans. That doesn't mean I don't know a thing or two about brains. Which, by the way, are made out of neurons - the same cells that nerves are made out of. While I can't provide evidence about how an individual cis person would feel in a situation they have never been in, I can refer to cases where other cis people have been in similar situations. Which I did.

As for the rest, that's what I said. There is absolutely no reason to believe that brain sex is not necessarily binary same as the sex of other organs are not necessarily binary. If you'll notice, I also said that gender roles are poop. The only fundamental difference that I know of between males and females is how we identify. That's it. Identifying as different genders, even if we can't put that difference into words or further categories, is still a difference.

Please do not put words in my mouth. As I also said, I am very insulted by the assumption that I am really so stupid that I'd believe in gender roles.

[R_1]

I actually don't represent any cis people since I'm trans. That doesn't mean I don't know a thing or two about brains. Which, by the way, are made out of neurons - the same cells that nerves are made out of. While I can't provide evidence about how an individual cis person would feel in a situation they have never been in, I can refer to cases where other cis people have been in similar situations. Which I did.

As for the rest, that's what I said. There is absolutely no reason to believe that brain sex is not necessarily binary same as the sex of other organs are not necessarily binary. If you'll notice, I also said that gender roles are poop. The only fundamental difference that I know of between males and females is how we identify. That's it. Identifying as different genders, even if we can't put that difference into words or further categories, is still a difference.

Please do not put words in my mouth. As I also said, I am very insulted by the assumption that I am really so stupid that I'd believe in gender roles.

I know what brains are made out of though not to the extent of a neurobiologist, I'm simply stating that you shouldn't state something on the line of cis-individuals feel a gender, however they don't notice it. There's no evidence to suggest that all cis-individuals feel a gender or even whether the concept of gender as an abstract concept is applicable to them, and no reason to believe that.

I'm not saying that you believe in gender roles, I just want to raise another point regarding differences between the brains of the two sexes, and how differences may not translate into functional differences. I am not putting words to your mouth, I'm just trying to make a comment about that point.

[Rimethurs]

Oh sorry. I thought that went without saying. Oops.

True, I can't say that for all of them. However, there is evidence that cis people feel a gender. I can say that a ciswoman who identifies as a woman does whether she knows it or not because it what makes her identify as a woman and I can say the same for cismen who identify as men. That is, after all, what gender is. At least, it is in my definition. Besides, if trans people have a gender, why wouldn't cis people have a gender? Plus there are the cases I mentioned.

[R_1]

Oh sorry. I thought that went without saying. Oops.

True, I can't say that for all of them. However, there is evidence that cis people feel a gender. I can say that a ciswoman who identifies as a woman does whether she knows it or not because it what makes her identify as a woman and I can say the same for cismen who identify as men. That is, after all, what gender is. At least, it is in my definition. Besides, if trans people have a gender, why wouldn't cis people have a gender? Plus there are the cases I mentioned.

Because some people including trans people defines gender as the sex-based identity that reflects your internal sense of feelings of what makes you, and not every cis-individual actually have that. Other defines gender as identity. This is exactly why I created cis-genderless label.

[Rimethurs]

So if someone identifies as genderless and their primary and secondary sex characteristics are not, but they identify as cis, does that mean I can be a cis man even though I have tits and a vag?

[Emery.]

So if someone identifies as genderless and their primary and secondary sex characteristics are not, but they identify as cis, does that mean I can be a cis man even though I have tits and a vag?

This is where things get tricky, sticky and such. However, I think the point Reptilian is making is that some people don't care about their gender either way: don't feel at odds, but telling them that they do identify as their birth gender is not right, because they are just oblivious to their body, percieve it as a random thing that just happened to them. They don't feel either way: no affirmation, no protest. Flexible sense of self. However, since they feel no protest, they are not trans, hence cis.

[Rimethurs]

Fair enough. Maybe I've just had too many experiences with people who have identified with a gender all their lives and never having experienced what this is actually like telling me that, since gender has never been a problem for them, it shouldn't be a problem for me or shouldn't matter to me.

[Zapstileon]

Females may be equal to males, but males are not equal to females (they are shoved ahead, somehow). We need to pull the male gender off their high pedestals. It's as if it's not okay to want to be female. That is to say, it's okay for female to want to be male because male = strong, independent, etc. It's not okay for male to want to be female because female = weak, sensitive, etc. Which is some sort of messed up social construct that needs to go. But that's all society, and doesn't even remotely answer any questions... :P

I'm not sure I understand how males are "shoved ahead" nor do I agree that the reason it's "not ok" for males to want to be females because female = weak. There are weak men all over the place and no one really cares. I think it has more to do with homophobia than anything. At one time, I think men and women were both stuck in gender roles pretty hard (for whatever reasons). I may not agree with a lot of feminism, especially the modern stuff, but one thing it did for sure was break women from those traditional gender roles very thoroughly especially in the first world. Men are still stuck though. It breaks my heart that modern feminism doesn't seem to acknowledge that, or seem to want to do anything about it. I mean, it did it once, why not do it again? Or if it can't or won't, kindly step aside and let some new movement do it. I wonder how many problems that modern feminism is trying to solve would magically go away if men were broken free of their gender roles.

I have a sneaking suspicion that it's not men who are averse to being freed from their own gender roles. That just doesn't make sense. Maybe we have to start with acknowledging and helping transwomen/transfeminine people become far more widely accepted than they are today. I shouldn't have to be scared shitless about going out into the world as a cute lady-person that doesn't pass 100%. Just the fact that I have to even consider that makes it really hard to identify this way. Do I have hesitations about being a transfeminine person because I have actual hesitations, or because I'm afraid of what it will mean for my interaction with the world? Lots of soul-searching has brought me to the conclusion that it's the latter. And if I feel that way, you can bet there are others.

Anyway, I've made it a point to stay out of that feminism thread in hot box because I know it's a topic that often makes me feel excluded and upset. And it really doesn't have much to do with this thread, so I don't want to get too tied up in it here :)

I don't know about feminism. I tend to move away from that all together, where I can. Let the feminists do what they do best. I only meant that society appears to be of the perception that it is okay for females to be like males, but not for males to be like females. I can see no other reason for this, but that even now, in society, there is a fleeting ideal of men being strong (thus boosting males in the image of strength). Because homophobia doesn't only affect males, but femininity is not okay for males, whilst masculinity is okay for females. If you have a better way of explaining that to me than that humanity perceives one as strong and the other as weak, thereby accepting for all individuals to be allowed to be masculine, yet only half to be feminine, then I'll be happy to see it that way. You see, a lot of the gender equality we are proud of is, in fact, an illusion. We pretend it is there, but if it was, then a man could grow his hair long, wear a dress and make-up and still be a man, just as a woman can cut her hair short, drop the make up and wear jeans, and be a woman no less than before. I may be harsh, but I do see this problem. Men are told to be strong from childhood. They are told not to be girls. Why's that, I wonder, if not for the perception that females are considered weak? I'm not saying it is true or valid to think females are weak or that men are strong. But would it not be more reasonable, then, to tell young boys not to be cowardly, rather than telling them not to be girls?

Since you mentioned homophobia, interestingly, during the frequent and brutal hunt for homosexuality under the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885 in UK and Ireland, the section that incriminated homosexuality did so only for men. Something to think on. Perhaps we did it wrong during the suffragette movements? Perhaps it is the male gender that needed the revolution? Or perhaps we forgot the men along the way, thinking they had the power (thus spawning that extremist feminism that I so desperately try to avoid)? Just a thought.

I too think it's not so much that males don't want to break free. But I have a sneaking suspicion that society has an awful lot to do about that too. Society is a cruel puppeteer, with more and stronger strings than we believe. In fact, I'm almost certain feminists would have nothing to do if men were suddenly free from their gender roles, as women were once freed from theirs (to some extent).

Unfortunately, transwomen are not the only ones with that problem. I can only ever present as a masculine female, because identifying as a feminine male will most definitely get me harassed (also, probably beaten up...). You're not the only one who feels that hesitation, believe it or not. I may be going the other way, but I think the coin is the same. We simply sit on different sides of it.

[butterflydreams]

Females may be equal to males, but males are not equal to females (they are shoved ahead, somehow). We need to pull the male gender off their high pedestals. It's as if it's not okay to want to be female. That is to say, it's okay for female to want to be male because male = strong, independent, etc. It's not okay for male to want to be female because female = weak, sensitive, etc. Which is some sort of messed up social construct that needs to go. But that's all society, and doesn't even remotely answer any questions... :P

I'm not sure I understand how males are "shoved ahead" nor do I agree that the reason it's "not ok" for males to want to be females because female = weak. There are weak men all over the place and no one really cares. I think it has more to do with homophobia than anything. At one time, I think men and women were both stuck in gender roles pretty hard (for whatever reasons). I may not agree with a lot of feminism, especially the modern stuff, but one thing it did for sure was break women from those traditional gender roles very thoroughly especially in the first world. Men are still stuck though. It breaks my heart that modern feminism doesn't seem to acknowledge that, or seem to want to do anything about it. I mean, it did it once, why not do it again? Or if it can't or won't, kindly step aside and let some new movement do it. I wonder how many problems that modern feminism is trying to solve would magically go away if men were broken free of their gender roles.

I have a sneaking suspicion that it's not men who are averse to being freed from their own gender roles. That just doesn't make sense. Maybe we have to start with acknowledging and helping transwomen/transfeminine people become far more widely accepted than they are today. I shouldn't have to be scared shitless about going out into the world as a cute lady-person that doesn't pass 100%. Just the fact that I have to even consider that makes it really hard to identify this way. Do I have hesitations about being a transfeminine person because I have actual hesitations, or because I'm afraid of what it will mean for my interaction with the world? Lots of soul-searching has brought me to the conclusion that it's the latter. And if I feel that way, you can bet there are others.

Anyway, I've made it a point to stay out of that feminism thread in hot box because I know it's a topic that often makes me feel excluded and upset. And it really doesn't have much to do with this thread, so I don't want to get too tied up in it here :)

I don't know about feminism. I tend to move away from that all together, where I can. Let the feminists do what they do best. I only meant that society appears to be of the perception that it is okay for females to be like males, but not for males to be like females. I can see no other reason for this, but that even now, in society, there is a fleeting ideal of men being strong (thus boosting males in the image of strength). Because homophobia doesn't only affect males, but femininity is not okay for males, whilst masculinity is okay for females. If you have a better way of explaining that to me than that humanity perceives one as strong and the other as weak, thereby accepting for all individuals to be allowed to be masculine, yet only half to be feminine, then I'll be happy to see it that way. You see, a lot of the gender equality we are proud of is, in fact, an illusion. We pretend it is there, but if it was, then a man could grow his hair long, wear a dress and make-up and still be a man, just as a woman can cut her hair short, drop the make up and wear jeans, and be a woman no less than before. I may be harsh, but I do see this problem. Men are told to be strong from childhood. They are told not to be girls. Why's that, I wonder, if not for the perception that females are considered weak? I'm not saying it is true or valid to think females are weak or that men are strong. But would it not be more reasonable, then, to tell young boys not to be cowardly, rather than telling them not to be girls?

Since you mentioned homophobia, interestingly, during the frequent and brutal hunt for homosexuality under the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885 in UK and Ireland, the section that incriminated homosexuality did so only for men. Something to think on. Perhaps we did it wrong during the suffragette movements? Perhaps it is the male gender that needed the revolution? Or perhaps we forgot the men along the way, thinking they had the power (thus spawning that extremist feminism that I so desperately try to avoid)? Just a thought.

I too think it's not so much that males don't want to break free. But I have a sneaking suspicion that society has an awful lot to do about that too. Society is a cruel puppeteer, with more and stronger strings than we believe. In fact, I'm almost certain feminists would have nothing to do if men were suddenly free from their gender roles, as women were once freed from theirs (to some extent).

Unfortunately, transwomen are not the only ones with that problem. I can only ever present as a masculine female, because identifying as a feminine male will most definitely get me harassed (also, probably beaten up...). You're not the only one who feels that hesitation, believe it or not. I may be going the other way, but I think the coin is the same. We simply sit on different sides of it.

Yup...I definitely think we're in agreement here :)

The whole argument about femininity being not ok for males, while masculinity is ok for females, having roots in strength and weakness is a super complicated one. That's why I kind of dismissed it and went with homophobia. And you're right, all kinds of homophobia are a problem in this. The strong/weak narrative isn't one I personally experienced, or even really saw. I know it exists, but I have no internal concept of it. Maybe it was because I had a tomboyish sister who despite being two years younger beat me up when I was 7 and topped it off by majorly biting me on my back a couple times. (Seriously, she broke skin. My mom was pissed!) So I never felt like as a child I received that men=strong women=weak line. Far from it. When my dad finally resigned himself to the fact that I was never going to be any kind of an athlete, he moved on to my sister who happily obliged. I had bullies and harassment, not her. Nobody fucked with her. Even when we were teenagers, all my friends were afraid of her. She threw a knife at my friend once. And nobody came down on me like my mom. I was never afraid of my dad, but there were some times when I thought my mom was going to beat me senseless.

That's interesting about the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885. I really do think so much of this stuff is rooted in homophobia. Where the homophobia comes from, that I don't know. I suspect that's the part you're going after.

You're the first person I've ever heard besides me who said that feminists would be out of a job if men were freed from gender roles :) When you describe society as a puppeteer, that's kind of weird to think about, because society is made up of us. All of us. I think in some weird, disgusting way (cultural, biological, who knows) we collectively have some kind of interest in maintaining the gendered status quo. I think you and I are in agreement on the existence of that status quo for sure. How the hell do you break something like that? I haven't the slightest idea.

And yes, I didn't at all mean to imply that transwomen were the only one with that problem. I should've been more open-ended about it. I was just relating to my experience. The feminine transmen and masculine/butch transwomen are probably at the very forefront of all of this. Talk about a giant FU to society's understanding of gender and gender roles. Sheesh! At least masculine transmen and feminine transwomen are still roughly abiding by or aspiring to a "clear cut" gender binary.

So yeah, summing it up...I have no idea where these gendered constructs come from, how they're so consistently enforced, or what we can do about them. Other than slowly continuing to chip away by doing whatever we can to protect all trans people until we get some kind of critical mass for a cultural shift in attitude. Unfortunately, I won't be holding my breath :(

[SirenDragon]

Thank you for trying to educate yourself, and thank you for avoiding saying things such as "a man wanting to be called Rebecca." I can see that you have a high level of consideration for peoples' feelings which many people seem to lack.

Now, to answer your question.

People don't choose to identify as another gender. It is something beyond our control, much like it is beyound someone's control to identify as asexual. Some people simply imagine themselves as a different gender to the one people think they ought to be, for example, I often would forget that I 'was a girl' and the only reason that I didn't start calling myself a boy, etc. is because I knew that people would tell me off and I knew that they expected me to behave a certain way. I often felt demeaned by people who would emphasis me female-ness (you're a lovely young lady) and I felt confused by the way people expected me to behave. As soon as I found a place where I could declare my gender for myself (AVEN) I cast off the label of girl and began the search for a new one.

The reason why I transitioned from female to male (a very difficult, long, and scary process), was because my pain at having to live a certain way outweighed my worries at the difficulty of transition.

As for the 'third gender', there are not three genders, but an infinite amount of genders that all fit on a complex spectrum (or maybe two?).

These other genders (not man or woman) are collectively called non-binary.

Here are a few:

Gender-neutral--not identifying as a man or a woman, but a lack of male-ness or female-ness, but not a lack of gender.

Agender--not feeling like they connect to gender.

Genderqueer--I don't actually know much about this. I think its meaning differs from person to person (don't quote me on that).

Pan-gender--feeling like all genders either separately or together.

Bi-gender--feeling two distinct genders either separately or together.

Genderfluid--constantly changing gender e.g. feeling like a girl some days and a boy others.

There are a lot more, but I'm tired and I can't really think of many right now.

[Hunter James]

I always find it interesting that we can look at the vast array of human variation - from eye color to hair texture to height and weight, to strength, to mental flexibility, to left or right handedness, to sexual orientation - and then still wonder why everyone can't just fit in the standard pink and blue boxes.

Eventually, science will discover the reasons behind it all - the genetics, the hormones in the womb, the structures of the brain. They're uncovering more and more each year. And thankfully, each year our society bends a little further away from the standard pink and blue boxes and our rigid definitions of male and female. They're the labels we use for now, like the labels we use for the variations, and I really don't think there are labels enough, just like you can't organize every woman or man in the world according to a particular shade of skin or size of their hands or whether or not they can digest wheat or milk or taste broccoli the same way.

I really hope that someday - and places like this are working towards it - we find new words and new definitions that are less harmful to young human beings than the straightforward "male" and "female" we have used for so long. I don't know what they will be. But I do know that the lack of understanding comes not from the individual variations of the human beings involved, but rather our limited language and understanding of the terms. It may sound hokey, but take away the concepts and everyone is simply perfect and beautiful as whatever they are.

[Dawnpaw]

I don't care about gender roles or conforming unless I have to, I will just be myself. And what people think is "right" for one gender isn't universally thought of that way, they are cultural and can change. One example is pink for girls and blue for boys. It used to be reversed with pink being seen as a stronger colour like red and blue being more seen as a more dainty colour so people thought that blue should be for girls and pink should be for boys.