Self Made Man: Norah Vincent

[Moon Ace]

I was researching some stuff on the BBC website and came across something interesting. Wanting to listen to the programme and it not loading, I ended up searching for the topic on youtube and found this. I found it really interesting. Have any of you come across this before? And what do you think?

I think it's interesting because to some extent it blows apart prejudice. I also wonder how it work the other way round. On a personal level I couldn't relate, being in the middle. It made me realise how much in the middle I am as I understand both sides while at the same time lacking a lot of understanding on both sides, men and women. Or is this video portraying a typical north American social environment? (I don't think so... at least not entirely... )

At the same time, it confronts me with the social dysphoria I'm constantly feeling, both consciously and subconsciously, much more/in a more direct way. The ending made me wonder as well, as often I play a semi-role to fit in with society's expectations. I often negate who I really am to fit in, in other words... how does that affect me without realising. I know we all do this to some extent, but not related to gender identity.

Not sure if this in the right place... I was considering posting this in the philosophy thread instead...

[Calligraphette_Coe]

I liked her book. I'd recommend it, in fact have. But when it comes to her transphobia, I have to respectfully part company. Especially with utterances like this one in The Advocate:

“So why, as adults, do transsexuals mutilate their bodies in order to make them conform to the fashionable version of the opposite sex and gender? That only reinforces oppressive stereotypes every bit as much as liposuction or a bimbo's boob job. If you're a man in a woman's body, then live androgynously if you're such a revolutionary. Don't conform. I do it every day, and it isn't particularly easy. Half the time I'm sir, and half the time I'm ma'am, and that's how it should be when sex and gender don't matter.

If you truly want to thwart gender norms, don't pull a fast one on the dictionary or your poor blameless privates. Live with all the polymorphy God gave you, body and soul. It's a lot more radical.”

I'm only a little bit surprised by the 'female privilege' comment, as she seemed to never particularly care about people like me from her conservative ivory tower.

Credit where credit is due, but why make another facet of the community members' lives more difficult with conservative positions?

Read more: http://zagria.blogspot.com/2013/06/norah-vincent-196-journalist.html#ixzz3MNmgGgcG
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution

[Moon Ace]

I don't know a lot about her. I just like the video. I must say that the quote you insterted is a bit strange to me. She makes it sound like trans people, aces, etc... are doing this to challenge gender norms and perceptions about sexuality and gender... That, to me, is a bit of a strange stance.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

I don't know a lot about her. I just like the video. I must say that the quote you insterted is a bit strange to me. She makes it sound like trans people, aces, etc... are doing this to challenge gender norms and perceptions about sexuality and gender... That, to me, is a bit of a strange stance.

Welcome to the minefield of GLBT politics. At one point in time, it really got a little vicious between the G and the T in the big tent of GLBT re. Vincent et al. There are some gay cisgendered people who are very opposed to, as some of them put it, "delusional mutilation of genitals". I remember getting some flack first hand in the 90s when I was still surgery tracked from both lesbians and gay men to whom I tried to form closer friendships. The one thing that always came up was ' why are doing this? Why can't you just accept that you are a gay man? Are you ashamed of that?"

How could I answer that knowing that I was of the asexual variety?

And then it all blew up on me when I had a medical meltdown which prevented me from taking hormones unless I wanted to suffer dire consequences. That didn't matter, as I got much the same flack in reverse from transsexuals who no longer considered me to be one and pretty must disowned me.

From my ordeals, I came to find out that it's best to avoid people with agendas altogether. Even though I really should embrace what Vincent has said in the past because of the new reality I have had to accept, I just can't help notice that that is a pretty heavy-handed, identity-nullifying erasure of surgery tracked folks. And that just makes it wrong.

I think I understand why both sides think that way, and it's gender roles and sexuality that are the reasons. And a lot of us struggle with those. Perhaps too many of us to accept that there is one pat answer that everyone should accept.

Like I said, it's all very confusing and maddening. And all I'm saying is that Vincent has said some things that are not inclusive. And that the reader should decide for herself how to evaluate her message as a whole based on that.

[Moon Ace]

Hmm...yes... there are bigots and people who just fail to walk in someone else's shoes for whatever reason everywhere. What you went through sound very much like tribalism to me. If you don't do/have xyz then you don't belong here... and complete lack of understanding.

I wonder if she is more nuanced in her beliefs now, after her experience of living as a man. Part of me feels it would be beneficial for society if everyone could do that. I know a lot of pretty judgemental and close minded people who grew up with a strong binary opinion built on quicksand. I found that a lot of the time it's not nastiness but lack of understanding and openness because they can't see beyond the little cardboard box they live in and feel comfortable in. They wish for everyone to feel comfortable in the same kind of box and stamp on people to make them fit... all with 'the best intentions'.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

I'd stop waaay short of saying Vincent is a bigot, but I can't give her a free pass for 'not understanding'. I think she's just very opinionated on the matter and thinks she is a little more expert on the subject than before after having crosslived as a man. But if you read the book, you'll see it took a toll on her-- she committed herself to a mental health facility/treatment after she finished crossliving. I'll let that up to the individual reader to ponder upon, too.

I do think she was blindsided by the experience and expect men to live down to her expectations and was genuinely surprised and, indeed, had grown attached to some of the men in a platonic way. She did say she felt regret at having 'tricked' them. I'm wondering if that isn't the reason for her feelings about transitioning trans people-- she just thinks, based on her own experiences and rulesets, that it's someone deceitful to be a gender that doesn't match hour chromosomes. *We* know that's not so, but I don't think she can get past that for whatever reason.

And I'm not sure if she'd be open to a frank discussion over coffee, for example, of the hell I went through socially and medically. She'd probably say, "You did this to yourself, why couldn't you just leave well enough alone and be like me--- live as an androgynous gay person and accept the consequences-- they have to be better than your way."

To which I'd have to say, "You just don't understand......"

But then I'll never know, and it may be unfair to speculate.

[Heart]

Part of me feels it would be beneficial for society if everyone could do that. I know a lot of pretty judgemental and close minded people who grew up with a strong binary opinion built on quicksand. I found that a lot of the time it's not nastiness but lack of understanding and openness because they can't see beyond the little cardboard box they live in and feel comfortable in. They wish for everyone to feel comfortable in the same kind of box and stamp on people to make them fit... all with 'the best intentions'.

I often think it would be a great benefit to society as a whole if it were possible for everyone to live in a differently-sexed body for a little. Not forcing anyone -- people here of all people know how bad that can feel, to be forced to exist in a body you are very uncomfortable with and feels very wrong -- but given the option. I think that a lot of people who aren't trans would still try it, and I think they would get a lot out of it. Open-minded people, at least.

Anyways, I don't mean to derail the thread. I don't know much about this particular video or the background, I just struck against that comment and it got me thinking :)

[Moon Ace]

Part of me feels it would be beneficial for society if everyone could do that. I know a lot of pretty judgemental and close minded people who grew up with a strong binary opinion built on quicksand. I found that a lot of the time it's not nastiness but lack of understanding and openness because they can't see beyond the little cardboard box they live in and feel comfortable in. They wish for everyone to feel comfortable in the same kind of box and stamp on people to make them fit... all with 'the best intentions'.

I often think it would be a great benefit to society as a whole if it were possible for everyone to live in a differently-sexed body for a little. Not forcing anyone -- people here of all people know how bad that can feel, to be forced to exist in a body you are very uncomfortable with and feels very wrong -- but given the option. I think that a lot of people who aren't trans would still try it, and I think they would get a lot out of it. Open-minded people, at least.

Anyways, I don't mean to derail the thread. I don't know much about this particular video or the background, I just struck against that comment and it got me thinking :)

I think the people who would need it most wouldn't though...

[Calligraphette_Coe]

Part of me feels it would be beneficial for society if everyone could do that. I know a lot of pretty judgemental and close minded people who grew up with a strong binary opinion built on quicksand. I found that a lot of the time it's not nastiness but lack of understanding and openness because they can't see beyond the little cardboard box they live in and feel comfortable in. They wish for everyone to feel comfortable in the same kind of box and stamp on people to make them fit... all with 'the best intentions'.

I often think it would be a great benefit to society as a whole if it were possible for everyone to live in a differently-sexed body for a little. Not forcing anyone -- people here of all people know how bad that can feel, to be forced to exist in a body you are very uncomfortable with and feels very wrong -- but given the option. I think that a lot of people who aren't trans would still try it, and I think they would get a lot out of it. Open-minded people, at least.

Anyways, I don't mean to derail the thread. I don't know much about this particular video or the background, I just struck against that comment and it got me thinking :)

I think the people who would need it most wouldn't though...

How true! Those who benefit most from gender privilege would be the most vulnerable to its absence and *nobody* likes being vulnerable. It teaches some pretty harsh lessons and leaves a lot of scars. It's like surgery for the psyche and sometimes wounds more than it instructs.

I gave this book to a very close female friend of mine to read, and her reaction to the men in the bowling league chapter was EXACTLY like Vincent's: she asked me 'do men really do that, feel generous enough to help the men they compete against?' She thought it had to be an exaggeration, and said "Women don't do this. At all. They take an almost gleeful approach to seeing another woman they don't like fail and get her comeuppance. And they *may* pretend at feeling bad about it to their face, but as soon as they leave the room....."