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Perpetual Virginity


Spectre/Ex/Machina

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Spectre/Ex/Machina

That has nothing to do with anything Im talking about. Next time some one cheats on my friend I should totally smile and shake their hand.

You can actually, if nothing it is polite.

Or nah, I don't take kindly to people hurting my friends.

Im polite to those that deserve it.

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Yes . . . but discussions properly include what other people take to be facts, or knowledge that they have that you do not.

Yes -- but if others say xyz are facts and you don't think they are, you're free to say that and refute them. Especially if what they're saying seems obviously derived from their personal experience as they've explained in their posts. Personal experience is...experience, not facts about anyone else's experience, or some dictum of society at large. The OP seems to be arguing from personal experience and presenting that experience as fact.

Because you are taking me out of context, here is the rest of what I say in those same few sentences. "And, my saying it relates to his notions is. loosely, my idea of 'fact'. . . . What do you want us to use in discussions? They are along the lines of 'I think', yes, but further 'I think this is the fact' and 'because'."

Why else would I promote 'because' if I wasn't promoting discussions between the validity of 'facts' between different peoples understanding? He takes it to be a fact based on personal experience. We can argue with that experience (it's his 'because') in discrediting what he takes to be a fact. But to out and out say that he's not stating what he believes to be a fact (note, that is different from to agree that it is the fact of the matter) is to discredit another person as even having beliefs (beliving something is true). The point: to say that no one can claim that what they are saying as fact, so long as that person is willing to argue the premises, is doing disservice to the entire concept of discussion. They have to be willing to change their mind on the facts, yes, but that doesn't meaning doing away with the lived experience of opinion as fact.

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Yes . . . but discussions properly include what other people take to be facts, or knowledge that they have that you do not.

Yes -- but if others say xyz are facts and you don't think they are, you're free to say that and refute them. Especially if what they're saying seems obviously derived from their personal experience as they've explained in their posts. Personal experience is...experience, not facts about anyone else's experience, or some dictum of society at large. The OP seems to be arguing from personal experience and presenting that experience as fact.

No, Im merely presenting my ideas/philosophy. That's what I do, talk about ideas, but unfortunately we live in a society of literalist who don't always understand that. Im talking about shaking up the status quo, using the words they use to define and put us down for our sexuality and redefining and empowering ourselves with it. Because they view virginity and purity as synonymous, because they say we lose something holy when we have sex. This is how I feel, I am mad at this, I have an idea to make things better, so here I am sharing. It'll be nice if folks truly listened.

I canmnot agree with you enough here. I saw your first post as a very nice conceptual promot that would allow for all peoples differing attitutes towards consensual sex to be on par with one and other, so long as they are doing what they actually want. I have no clue how so many othe people have seen it as sex negative.

Also, to the OP who quoted me, please; just because you read it in a certain way, that shows your biases in reading. It is not reflective of what I typed at all. I'd really like to not have to bold my points and rephrase them in summary every time I type something, and so long as we agree to let people carify their statements, I have no need to do that; and this entails you acknowledging that you are not summarizing me: I NEVER said that we weren't free to refute what other people say. That was in fact, the ENTIRE point of my post. But to refute somebody, you first need to understand them--meaning trusting when they say that that's not what they meant--otherwise you're still not at the point where discussion is possible.

I think this topic is rife with misunderstanding.

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Ricecream-man

No, Im merely presenting my ideas/philosophy. That's what I do, talk about ideas, but unfortunately we live in a society of literalist who don't always understand that. Im talking about shaking up the status quo, using the words they use to define and put us down for our sexuality and redefining and empowering ourselves with it. Because they view virginity and purity as synonymous, because they say we lose something holy when we have sex. This is how I feel, I am mad at this, I have an idea to make things better, so here I am sharing. It'll be nice if folks truly listened.

I think the issue in this particular snippet is your generalization of people that others here are disagreeing with. I don't think anyone sees virginity and purity as truly synonymous. I don't think even the most zealous of Christians consider marital intercourse to be impure. It is the nature and method in which they occur that can cause something to be "pure" or "impure". The too are often related to each other, yes, but synonymous? No.

As for the listening. I see a lot of miscommunication going on there as well. On both parts, yours included. For instance, the first two threads were debating virginity and it's relationship to purity. I was constantly asking you for a concrete definition of virginity according to your beliefs. However, you were unable to give me one and I was only able to understand what your definition was through a chance moment when you were answering Pan-Ficto about something else. I'm not saying you were dodging me nor am I blaming you for not answering me.

I'm just trying to say that what's in your head and what you mean to say, may be different from what you're actually saying. Just a thought.

I think all this stuff, purity, impurity, sluts, prudes, virginity, the hymen myth is nonsense. They are just made up words that exist to police people's sexuality. Why not put all that energy into giving people good comprehensive sex education!

So we shouldn't police cheaters, people who pressure or coerce sex, people who lure other people into bed under false pretenses? I think they should be, they are assholes. I do view them as impure. Sex ed is not enough, society has really messed up ideas of sex. Those words you call nonsense have been thrown around me my whole life, they represent ideas I find important and at times dangerous. I don't see these words going anywhere, in my lifetime at least, so I repurpose them. Kinda like Terminator 2 when the T-800 was repurposed to help the protagonist rather than kill him.

It's okay to try and re-purpose a word, to "take it back" if you will, but you can't expect people to agree or understand your re-purposing of the word. I could try and re-purpose a racial slang all I want, but if I go around saying it I should be well prepared for the backlash.

Not once to I refer to sex-replused people on the tread fyi, just people who look down on harmless consensual sex. I refer to people who preach sex is evil, devilish ( that is what I mean by anti-sex) not referring to sex-repulsed. I thought that was obvious.

You might not flat out say it, but you do allude to it here when replying to Pan-Ficto. I've bolded the section in your original statement to make it easier to see. Just saying, it's easy to misinterpret.

Dude, you are taking this way wrong. No where do I say such things. What I am saying is that sex is only impure when you see sex as impure and act as such . Sex being natural, I can't see sex in the impure way, so the sex I have would be pure. I think you are the one trying to find offense here. I wrote out how I felt with much detail which by the way you speak, you seemed to have ignored for the sake of being confrontational with me, and I think you are being unfair to me.

I'm not disagreeing with your actual viewpoint(at least what I think you mean). I agree that there is nothing wrong with sex as long as you're not hurting yourself or anybody else when engaging in it. But like I pointed out before, what I believe you meant and what you said might be a little different.

Perhaps, instead of this thread being called "Perpetual Virginity", it should be renamed "Discussing the concepts of Spiritual Virginity/Purity as a Sex-positive view". *shrug*

That might be a good idea, I think.

I was trying to make a point.

So were they, and yet you dismissed their ideas like you claim others are doing to yours

You have every right to dislike people for whatever reason, but you're treading a thin line with elitism when you say things like this. It makes it seem like you feel you're so much better than they are, just because they use sex to make people feel bad.

Sex is not the be all and end all of the universe, people twist all sorts of things into insults and mockery. It's like saying people who are rascist are impure. That makes no sense, they're just people who use other people's features to make other them hurt and feel sub-human. It's kind of like how some people would feel if others went around calling them impure for whatever reason.

Sex crimes are particularly cruel and heinous, but people will always find something to be assholes about, and if being assholes is all that they're doing then just ignore them, or take a stand against their mockery, don't just throw the same thing back.

It's not elitism to call out bad behavior. To ignore such behavior would make me complicit.

Well, here you're not just calling out behavior you're passing judgement on a person. You're not saying that they shouldn't do that, you're labeling them as now "gross people" because they've committed an action that you deem inappropriate.

Although, I agree a little in your passing of judgement. If I meet a cheater or someone who's participated in some sort of sexual abuse I become extremely wary of them and am unlikely to take the effort become close to them.

Um no, I am calling them out, I am calling it as I see it. I am also using the language I see most impacting to get a point across, and you are taking it all wrong.

I'm sorry, you are right, labeling people how you see them is calling them out~

Impacting language is really good with getting points across though, like when parents call children vermin, and retarded asshat, to emphasize the extent of their poor grades...

That has nothing to do with anything Im talking about. Next time some one cheats on my friend I should totally smile and shake their hand.

It does relate. He's making a comparison in what you're doing in regards to these individuals to a parent calling a child out.

Here, let's say a boy ditches school and gets caught. His parents are then unlikely to trust him and will be wary of him when it comes to whether or not he goes to school. That's fine.

However, if they say he's a terrible kid for skipping school, they have effectively labeled the kid as a "terrible kid".

I'm not agreeing with either your nor Noky's original viewpoints. Just trying to clarify what's been said.

And with that I'm out. This is getting heated and it hasn't been hotboxed yet, so goodbye until it is.

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Spectre/Ex/Machina

I disagree. but it's become whatever at this point.

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I think you're thinking of chastity.

My father says being chaste is about only having sex at the right times, and about keeping a respectful attitude towards it (like not catcalling at women).

My father says he's a chaste man, but (obviously) not a virgin.

People often mix chaste women vs virgin but it's not the same thing.

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  • 3 months later...
Kuromi Akumura

I feel like the only one who highly values virginity and wouldn't give my body away. I value innocence, purity, chastity and virginity.......i feel kinda outcasted and like i'm doing something wrong for how much people hate it and think it's stupid ect....

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Spectre/Ex/Machina

I think you're thinking of chastity.

My father says being chaste is about only having sex at the right times, and about keeping a respectful attitude towards it (like not catcalling at women).

My father says he's a chaste man, but (obviously) not a virgin.

People often mix chaste women vs virgin but it's not the same thing.

While I like what you say here, my OP was meant to subvert ideas surrounding sex and virginity in western society because they put a negative light on sexuality as a whole. Also, it was meant to inspire sex-positive attitudes.

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Kuromi Akumura

For some reason I view normal vanilla intercourse between lovers to be pure, but I see masturbation as impure, dirty, and earthly. That's part of the reason I stopped masturbating. To me, a person who has sex but doesn't masturbate is pure, while a person who doesn't have sex but masturbates and/or watches porn isn't. Probably the reason why I think this way is because I see sex as a form of spiritual bonding, whereas masturbation is just satisfying corporeal urges without achieving any meaningful end. It all depends on your definition of the word "pure" though.

EDIT: On second thought, what I just said probably has nothing to do with what you said. Sorry, the OP just doesn't make sense.

nyaaaaaa i also dislike m*sturbation, i'm not the only one yay!

But i want to know your reasons and why ^w^ please please please

Also do you think that a male HAS to do it to be healthy? that is what people tell me....

Also what are your views on someone who does it to release sexual bodily frustration ( sexual energy? or something ) or getting aroused very often? ( something else my friend said it is okay to do....i got s*x-positive friends :/ )

I am really interested in to know how you think and feel :D

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Ricecream-man

For some reason I view normal vanilla intercourse between lovers to be pure, but I see masturbation as impure, dirty, and earthly. That's part of the reason I stopped masturbating. To me, a person who has sex but doesn't masturbate is pure, while a person who doesn't have sex but masturbates and/or watches porn isn't. Probably the reason why I think this way is because I see sex as a form of spiritual bonding, whereas masturbation is just satisfying corporeal urges without achieving any meaningful end. It all depends on your definition of the word "pure" though.

EDIT: On second thought, what I just said probably has nothing to do with what you said. Sorry, the OP just doesn't make sense.

nyaaaaaa i also dislike m*sturbation, i'm not the only one yay!

But i want to know your reasons and why ^w^ please please please

Also do you think that a male HAS to do it to be healthy? that is what people tell me....

Also what are your views on someone who does it to release sexual bodily frustration ( sexual energy? or something ) or getting aroused very often? ( something else my friend said it is okay to do....i got s*x-positive friends :/ )

I am really interested in to know how you think and feel :D

To answer the healthy question. There is no definitive science linking the two. There's correlation studies but as of yet nothing to denote causation.

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I think that if you had sex (willing or not, liked it or not... every other factor is irrelevant) and are still calling yourself a virgin, that makes you a liar.

Pretty much the entire world views virginity as a simple yes/no concept: have you had sex before? That's not the sort of thing you can take back after it happens, and trying to suggest otherwise can pose a potential health risk to any future sexual partners you may have.

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MinorThreatGirl

I feel guilty every time I have sex, but that is possibly due to my upbringing (went to Catholic school for a number of years; parents were very controlling and insistent on my sister and I not having sex - at one point I remember by father screaming at my sister when she was 16: "If your boyfriend ever touches you sexually, I will murder him and go to prison! Do you want me to go to prison!") When I found out that my sister wasn't a virgin anymore, my world shattered. I didn't think less of her or anything; I just couldn't believe it. The same thing happened to myself when I lost my virginity - I just couldn't believe it. It seemed unreal. I used to admire the chastity of nuns and think about how great it would be to live a pure, spiritual life. My upbringing is something I had and still have to continually fight with. But either way, I still have a VERY low desire to do anything sexual with anyone... so it doesn't affect me too much.

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Spectre/Ex/Machina

I feel guilty every time I have sex, but that is possibly due to my upbringing (went to Catholic school for a number of years; parents were very controlling and insistent on my sister and I not having sex - at one point I remember by father screaming at my sister when she was 16: "If your boyfriend ever touches you sexually, I will murder him and go to prison! Do you want me to go to prison!") When I found out that my sister wasn't a virgin anymore, my world shattered. I didn't think less of her or anything; I just couldn't believe it. The same thing happened to myself when I lost my virginity - I just couldn't believe it. It seemed unreal. I used to admire the chastity of nuns and think about how great it would be to live a pure, spiritual life. My upbringing is something I had and still have to continually fight with. But either way, I still have a VERY low desire to do anything sexual with anyone... so it doesn't affect me too much.

This is what I was getting at with all of this. You and your sister being put down with puritanical guilt, made to feel a certain non-positive way about your sexuality. I wish to subvert societies views and contribute to helping all of us to move away from harmful ways.

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MinorThreatGirl

That is a good way to look at it then. I do think that people should attach some meaning to sex; it certainly is not the equivalent of shaking hands with someone and it should be regarded in a serious, mature manner. (Never understood the appeal in getting drunk and having one night stands with strangers from bars, for instance.) But not being a virgin shouldn't make you feel sinful or guilty. I have felt that way a lot, as though I've done a bad thing and if people (especially my family) know about it, then they will think of me differently... which should not be the case.

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I personally think that virginity is a social construct :blush:

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Spectre/Ex/Machina

I guess one can say that my OP is a sort of activism.

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