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Different definitions got me questioning (gray vs ace)


b88

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Hello! :)

I'm fairly new here, and new to asexuality, and I've a question about where I fit (gray vs ace). I identified as ace upon reading Aven's definition above - someone who doesn't experience sexual attraction. I don't think I have ever felt this, I feel romantic attraction (fairly infrequently but it's unmistakeable when it's there) and sensual attraction, though.

However. I've had relationships with sexuals, and think I have a fairly high libido. All sex and intimacy (even kissing, really) have always been unnatural and difficult for me - had I never been pressured into trying them I don't think I ever would have, of my own volition. That said, once I had, I continued to have sexual relationships and I enjoyed sex & intimacy for the physical sensation and the emotional closeness to my partner. So I learned to situationally interpret my libido as a desire for partnered sex, even though I was not explicitly sexually attracted to anyone. Even if they're really aesthetically attractive. Even if I love them.

But I've seen other definitions around saying that asexuality is a lack of desire for sex. Libido is a desire to act on sexual arousal - which could be by yourself (masturbation) as well as partnered sex. Some asexuals do have no libido but I didn't think that was what characterized our experience, especially since some asexuals have a libido, so this definition confused me.

Sexual orientation has always been about who you're attracted to (or not), not your behaviour. If having a libido doesn't make me sexual, why do I feel like the way I interpret/act on it make me less asexual? Am I right to identify as asexual or have I somehow misunderstood what being ace actually means? Help D;

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You haven't but others may. Asexuality means different things to other people, just like being gay, or bisexual, means other things to different people. Human beings have this terrible thing called cognitive dissonance which means we get upset when some new idea comes along that challenges that way of thinking.

However, we also have something called Cognitive Discourse which means that we can take two opposing ideas and live with them, eventually combining them. For example, "You're gay... but you also want to have sex with women. You're a gay man who likes women. And Bisexuality is born."

So I don't think it's impossible to be asexual and like sex. To me asexuality is all about the gender you're attracted to, not your sexual practices. I'm not attracted to any specific gender, but I like people, I like their personalities, and if I like them enough, and they like me enough, who's to say sex should be off the table just because their bodies do nothing for me.

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Hi there :) :cake:

AVEN defines sexual attraction as ''the desire for sexual contact with someone else, the desire to share ones sexuality with another person.''

People with ''different definitions'' are not saying Asexuality is anything different from what AVEN is saying it is (!!!) yet they want to make this statement clearer as the AVEN explanation of ''the desire for partnered sexual contact with someone else'' is foggy: Do they mean sexual arousal itself? or the desire to share sexual pleasure with another person? the enjoyment of sharing sexual pleasure? or the enjoyment of the intimacy sharing sexual pleasure brings?... just.. what?! :o This is what people want to clear up.

No one (AVEN included) is saying Asexuality is a lack of 'desire', or a lack of libido. Someone who does say that is wrong. No one is trying to change what AVEN itself defines as asexuality, and nowhere does AVEN say that asexuality is about a lack of libido or a lack of sexual desire, or a lack of masturbation, or anything of the sort, just to clear that up for everyone reading this :cake:

What people want to make clearer is that Asexuality is a lack of the innate, fundamental desire to share ones sexuality with another person. This means that an asexual can have a high libido, masturbate, even enjoy the sensations of partnered sex and have the desire to please their sexual partner by giving them partnered sex, and have an enjoyment of the intimacy they feel from having partnered sex...yet an asexual will not specifically have a fundamental desire inside them to seek partnered sexual contact or a specifically 'sexual' relationship due to the fact that they place partnered sex very highly on the list of things integral to their pleasure in life and integral to a healthy relationship.. see the difference?

Asexuality is not about lack of activity. Many asexuals engage in partnered sex for different reasons: they enjoy the feelings more than masturbation so it's an easier way to relieve arousal for them, they do it to please sexual partners, etc etc and of course many asexuals have a libido and masturbate etc.

Asexuality is about the lack of the fundamental 'need' for partnered sex that allosexuals often say they feel they have. You see time and time again on the internet (AVEN included) allosexuals saying ''Masturbation is just not enough sometimes, I need to be able to share that sexual experience with another person, or I just cannot be completely satisfied, sexually or emotionally''.

All this being said (here is where it starts getting trickier) there are asexuals on AVEN who say they do have an innate and fundamental desire for partnered sexual contact/activity, and feel they cannot have a healthy, emotionally fulfilling relationship without partnered sex. Yet they say they lack the experience of being sexually aroused by other people, and due to their total lack of 'sexual attraction' (ie attraction that causes sexual feelings) they are asexual. They believe it is this completely lack of being aroused by another person that makes an asexual, not the lack of the innate desire for partnered sexual contact. In my experience on AVEN, the amount of people who believe asexuality is about the lack of being sexually aroused by other people, and not the lack of desiring partnered sex to be fully sexually satisfied, far outweighs those who believe it is the other way around (again, this is despite the fact that AVEN's definition of sexual attraction is "the desire for partnered sexual activity")

Yet how does one bridge this gap that has now arisen, between two vastly different experiences, both of which are claiming to be fully asexual? (as opposed to subsets of asexuality)

In my opinion, the people who are not asexual are those who have the experience of being sexually aroused by another person and (at least sometimes) desire to have partnered sex with that person as a result of being sexually aroused by them/sexually aroused by aspects of their appearance/personality/whatever. Someone like this would be a full sexual (or of course Demi or Grey-A depending on the frequency that they feel this attraction+desire for partnered sexual activity)

Therefore an asexual can experience either the desire for partnered sex without that ''being turned-on by someone else'' feeling, or they can experience that ''being turned-on by someone else'' feeling without that turned-on feeling leading to them desiring partnered sex with that person, but they never experience both together, and they don't sometimes experience ''sexual arousal by another person'' and sometimes experience a desire for partnered sexual activity, they only have one of those experiences, and that's all they ever have (or, they are Grey-A, Demi, Cupio, or Allosexual)

I believe the above explanation is the only way to breach that gap between people who say asexuality is the lack of desire for partnered sex, and people who say asexuality is the lack of being sexually turned on by other people (of any gender).

Sexuals and asexuals are in complete agreement that both being 'turned-on' by someone, and desiring partnered sex with someone, are completely different experiences, though for many people they do come hand in hand. The confusion arises from the fact that many people think that they are the same thing: that being turned on sexually by another person means you desire partnered sex with them, and if you desire partnered sex with someone you must be sexually turned on by them. Both of these statements are categorically not true for many people.

Why do some people feel it is important to clear up what exactly the definition of sexual attraction is or is not?

Because Asexuality itself is most often described as the lack of Sexual Attraction, but everyone interprets Sexual Attraction loosely (and often differently) based on foggy internet definitions that really point in no definitive direction.. which makes the whole definition of asexuality itself foggy, no matter how clear it seems at first glance.

No one is trying to be argumentative, we just want to move towards clarity of exactly what sexual attraction is or is not, and whether or not it is purely a lack of this thing called 'sexual attraction' alone that makes someone asexual, or if there can be a combination of factors involved. It's about clarity, not trying to cause more confusion or 'twist the definition' (as some people are very quick to say) .

And it is most certainly not about trying exclude some people from asexuality. As far as I personally am concerned, its about making a definition that is as clear and inclusive as possible. :cake:

Please note also, it is not just one deciding factor that makes someone homo/bi/hetero/pan sexual.. it is the combination of feeling aroused by aspects of certain people of a particular gender/genders and having a fundamental desire to engage in partnered sex with certain people of that particular gender/genders, and for allosexuals these two experiences do not always coincide! Why do we think we can put asexuality down to one particular experience or lack thereof, when the other orientations are about a combination of factors??

To be clear, generally I would not bother with this kind of thing; I feel it is in everyone's own right to identify as they wish, as long as they are happy, who I am I to judge?

But, I myself am someone who feels sexually aroused by aspects of certain other people (especially when in love), or, more specifically, I think about aspects of certain people when I masturbate to help me achieve orgasm faster, yet I have no desire for partnered sexual activity (genital stimulation with and/or by other people) because its just not something I enjoy. I never have, never will; I cannot enjoy something I do not have any desire for. It took me years of suffering and trying to force myself to enjoy something I just did not want, before I finally learned about asexuality and realized that hey, I am not just a broken-sexual, there are other people out there like me who also actually just do not enjoy partnered sexual activity, no matter what the level of their libido is! I identify as fully asexual (as opposed to Grey or Demi) as the connections in my brain that make many people equate sexual arousal caused by someone else, with a desire to be sexually active with them, just are not there in my brain. I am not genital repulsed, I am not repulsed by naked bodies (actually quite like them) I am not intimacy repulsed (I love sensual activity when in love) I just do not desire or enjoy partnered sexual activity.

Due to the above stated facts, I have been on the receiving end of very hurtful elitism on AVEN (even had a post made about ''people who fake their asexuality to be special' after a discussion in chat with a person who wielded the AVEN definition (ignoring AVEN's explanation of the definition) to say ''you are not asexual, because you feel attraction that causes arousal, no matter how rarely, by another person. Asexuality is about the lack of that attraction, not the lack of sexual activity'' (which is a misinterpretation of what 'the desire for sexual activity' actually is. It's the fundamental desire to engage in partnered sexual activity that I lack, I don't want partnered sex but not have it, that would be abstinence: see the difference?) I am not the only one who feels this way, and who has experienced these kinds of the elitism attacks because of this.

Yet on the other side of the coin, you get people who say that ''someone who innately desires partnered sexual activity and needs it to be satisfied in a relationship (regardless of the fact that they feel no attraction) can in no way be asexual, because it's that fundamental desire for partnered sex that sets asexuals apart from asexuals''

So where does this end??? unless we can sort our definitions out, these sort of 'orientation attacks' between people of the same sexual orientation (!) will never stop.

Hope that helps clear things up for you (and other's feeling the same confusion!) and I apologize for the length :o :cake:

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