Society Is Not Reality

[Spectre/Ex/Machina]

For a long time now I have found it difficult to take people serious.

So many people mindlessly following society, no opinions of their own.Though they make claims to individuality there is no follow through.

When issues get brought up they parrot what they've been told. When you question things, you're the freak, you are evil.

When you question things like Age of Consent laws, you are looked upon as if you are a pedophile or rapist sympathizer, when really you just care about youth rights and a young persons right to their bodily autonomy. Since it is the law, most don't questions it. Many forget, law is not morality. Law is justice.

So stuck in gender roles, this society looks upon male victims of many sort with indifference and women are always seen as prey thus feeding rape culture; A culture most turn a blind eye too because it isn't painted in bright colors and requires real work to fix. In an increasingly tech focused world( let the computer do it), real work becomes a new taboo. Pseudo-intellectualism and bad work ethic run rampant.

3 things plaguing us in plain sight:

Gender roles.

Over reliance on technology.

Lack of autonomy.

Im not against tech at all, but we need to draw a line . We need to know when to pick it up and put it down.

Gender is fine, it can be helpful for self discovery(am I x,y or z) and to find a mate. But it should not define you, how you are treated or your goals.

We need to be or own sovereign people. Own who and what we are and what we do. We need to do better.

This was something I wanted to put out there, I may be chaotic but it was the best way I could put this out there.

[SuperHorace]

I agree ^~^ Gender should not construct who you are.

[ThaHoward]

You set your own limitations. I don't follow society or gender norms, I do what I want to and like to and still I am acceåted by society and have "normal" friends. You're limiting yourselves more by fixing yourself into different labels and assuming that society is chaining everyone up in labels and being sheep. In reality it is not like that at all, you set your own limitations.

[Skycaptain]

I agree, in "Post-modernist Western Society" sheep seem to be more individualistic than most humans. As far as autonomy goes fine, but we need to have a framework within which to operate. Total autonomy=anarchy, which is no help to anyone

[Amy Ghost]

I agree with the statement that many people are like puppets. They don't do what others don't want them to. And that is exactly wrong. Our race was made to question everything. If we stop, if we turn in a blind eye we do exactly that what governments want. Because they don't want really do many things. They only say thing that they will do to look good, and just do small stuff mostly. So they do, they must be pushed by society. So if people don't do anything, so they don't because they don't see a need.

Why do many men look at women in the way they do? Because society lets them. They don't question it enough. They don't simply say stop. No, they look away. They even tech the new generations of girl to let them to pick on them because that's how you make them happy. And what does society wants? Women are here to please men. I don't say every man is like that, but that a smaller part.

Just some time back I have come across a part from an article, where they asked people what did the think of statements a rapist would say and asked what did they think of them. Something like "If she wears revealing clothes she's asking for it." And they agreed. The whole society and law makers are feeding rapists.

And if a guy is raped they ask only essentials. But when a girl is they ask first what she was wearing and if was drunk. Ummm, sorry? How the fuck is being drunk a consent?! Or when does it matter who was wearing when?! What are we women supposed to do?! Wear long sleeves and long pants all year long? Even in the warmest of days? I say bullshit! Rape predates revealing clothes! A short skirt does NOT say yes. It says only in what someone is comfortable in!

And if someone is say smacked over the butt and shrugs it off that is like saying it's okay. Tell them no! We are no ones sex objects! If there is something wrong is it their thinking! Saying it's just playing it nonsense! It's saying they want harassment, abuse and rape are okay.

It makes me sick!

Same stereotyping gender roles. Blue is for boys and pink for girls? Short hair for boys and long for girls? I say Bullshit! It's long not what it used to be. Women can do hard work. Women can be tomboys. Women can be in high leading positions. Men can be sensitive. Men can be home with kids instead of their wifes.

I¨d let my kids pick their own colors. I'd let them pick what they want to wear, may it be boys dresses and girls jerseys or mens button up shirts. I¨d both boys and girl let their ears pierced, let them decide in the future if they want earing to wear. Let them both decide if they want short or long hair. Or toys they want to play with. I hate stereotyping, and wouldn't apply it with my kids.

Never assume!

[Vector]

I've been having this discussion with a few friends who like to claim they hate 'political stuff', who don't seem to understand that refusing to think about these things means tacitly supporting the status quo with all of its problems.

I do think, though, that we're sometimes a little quick to judge without first stopping to think just how strong the draw of 'belonging' is for humans. And how scary it is to feel alienated.

[Ficulnean]

I see social reality as a construct and moral reality as one too (this latter due to a belief in Albert Camus like absurdism) but I choose to subsribe to it as meaningful given the impact it has on individuals. Yes, gender roles need some reworking, so does work ethic, and technology needs to bot lead us into a spiral of using the time saved by technology to manage even more technology.

[Spectre/Ex/Machina]

I agree, in "Post-modernist Western Society" sheep seem to be more individualistic than most humans. As far as autonomy goes fine, but we need to have a framework within which to operate. Total autonomy=anarchy, which is no help to anyone

Autonomy is about self ownership. I am not talking about anarchy, Im talking about empowerment.

[Enki]

For a long time now I have found it difficult to take people serious.

So many people mindlessly following society, no opinions of their own.Though they make claims to individuality there is no follow through.

When issues get brought up they parrot what they've been told. When you question things, you're the freak, you are evil.

When you question things like Age of Consent laws, you are looked upon as if you are a pedophile or rapist sympathizer, when really you just care about youth rights and a young persons right to their bodily autonomy. Since it is the law, most don't questions it. Many forget, law is not morality. Law is justice.

So stuck in gender roles, this society looks upon male victims of many sort with indifference and women are always seen as prey thus feeding rape culture; A culture most turn a blind eye too because it isn't painted in bright colors and requires real work to fix. In an increasingly tech focused world( let the computer do it), real work becomes a new taboo. Pseudo-intellectualism and bad work ethic run rampant.

3 things plaguing us in plain sight:

Gender roles.

Over reliance on technology.

Lack of autonomy.

Im not against tech at all, but we need to draw a line . We need to know when to pick it up and put it down.

Gender is fine, it can be helpful for self discovery(am I x,y or z) and to find a mate. But it should not define you, how you are treated or your goals.

We need to be or own sovereign people. Own who and what we are and what we do. We need to do better.

This was something I wanted to put out there, I may be chaotic but it was the best way I could put this out there.

Social constructs may not be objective "reality", they however are "our" reality and therefore are very real. The other two arguments are rather nebulous. Our need to employ technology to maintain our present way of life is very real. Until an alternative can be found to fill that gap, our dependence on technology *is* our reality.

Individuality is an illusion. Where will always be limitations to our individuality - education, social, physical, mental, environmental, etc. There is no such thing as "true individuality" outside of theory.

What determines excess reliance? When determining "good" or "bad", there are no objective guidelines, and there has never been. Throughout the entirety of human history, laws and regulations have developed out of the simple trial-and-error paradigm. Force pitted against force, the victor determined by per-existing conditions, is the law.

Also, study results from experiments like Milgram's lead me to believe you are going to be sorely disappointed if you placed your bets on human initiative and originality for some sort of salvation.

[WhenSummersGone]

I agree. I've noticed people are too afraid to talk about important issues. If you don't follow everyone else you have some mental disorder. I hardly even hear about homosexuality in conversation but it clearly exists. This is why I like the internet because more things are talked about. People are stuck in their ways and nothing changes which is boring to me. I'd like to see more people think for themselves but I don't see that happening soon.

[Spectre/Ex/Machina]

For a long time now I have found it difficult to take people serious.

So many people mindlessly following society, no opinions of their own.Though they make claims to individuality there is no follow through.

When issues get brought up they parrot what they've been told. When you question things, you're the freak, you are evil.

When you question things like Age of Consent laws, you are looked upon as if you are a pedophile or rapist sympathizer, when really you just care about youth rights and a young persons right to their bodily autonomy. Since it is the law, most don't questions it. Many forget, law is not morality. Law is justice.

So stuck in gender roles, this society looks upon male victims of many sort with indifference and women are always seen as prey thus feeding rape culture; A culture most turn a blind eye too because it isn't painted in bright colors and requires real work to fix. In an increasingly tech focused world( let the computer do it), real work becomes a new taboo. Pseudo-intellectualism and bad work ethic run rampant.

3 things plaguing us in plain sight:

Gender roles.

Over reliance on technology.

Lack of autonomy.

Im not against tech at all, but we need to draw a line . We need to know when to pick it up and put it down.

Gender is fine, it can be helpful for self discovery(am I x,y or z) and to find a mate. But it should not define you, how you are treated or your goals.

We need to be or own sovereign people. Own who and what we are and what we do. We need to do better.

This was something I wanted to put out there, I may be chaotic but it was the best way I could put this out there.

Social constructs may not be objective "reality", they however are "our" reality and therefore are very real. The other two arguments are rather nebulous. Our need to employ technology to maintain our present way of life is very real. Until an alternative can be found to fill that gap, our dependence on technology *is* our reality.

Individuality is an illusion. Where will always be limitations to our individuality - education, social, physical, mental, environmental, etc. There is no such thing as "true individuality" outside of theory.

What determines excess reliance? When determining "good" or "bad", there are no objective guidelines, and there has never been. Throughout the entirety of human history, laws and regulations have developed out of the simple trial-and-error paradigm. Force pitted against force, the victor determined by per-existing conditions, is the law.

Also, study results from experiments like Milgram's lead me to believe you are going to be sorely disappointed if you placed your bets on human initiative and originality for some sort of salvation.

Just because our present society is in a certain state does not make it a rule for reality.Individuality is not an illusion, no to people are exactly alike. How are my other points nebulous when other seemed to have understood?....Also yes you can determine when something is over or under relied upon. Finally, pessimism won't get us anywhere.

[Exanimis]

Utopic humanism is utopic.

How do you expect individualism when we group ourselves? When we do not belong to any group, we start belonging to the group of the ones who didn't belong to any group. Individualism gets evened out in the end.

Human society is just a reflection of nature, nothing but that.

[Enki]

Never said it would never change, it will obviously. I but I don't see this great "wrong" you speak of.

No two snowflakes are exactly the same, but they are similar enough to fall the same and melt the same, etc., so whatever differences they do have is irrelevant when analyzing behavior of blizzards. Adequately similar to be virtually identical.

What is "nebulous" is your stance on technology, basically : "Technology should be checked because it is getting out of hand". To understand what is out of order one needs understand order, or at least within the context of a specific goal/issue.

[Spectre/Ex/Machina]

Utopic humanism is utopic.

How do you expect individualism when we group ourselves? When we do not belong to any group, we start belonging to the group of the ones who didn't belong to any group. Individualism gets evened out in the end.

Human society is just a reflection of nature, nothing but that.

I never mention utopia, never expected it. Society is not a reflection of nature, it is a reflection of our perception of nature.

A group can have individual, and those individuals with their own approach to things can come together in a multi-dimensional way and create amazing things.

[Bronte]

Society is an impression of collective behaviour.

[Spectre/Ex/Machina]

Never said it would never change, it will obviously. I but I don't see this great "wrong" you speak of.

No two snowflakes are exactly the same, but they are similar enough to fall the same and melt the same, etc., so whatever differences they do have is irrelevant when analyzing behavior of blizzards. Adequately similar to be virtually identical.

What is "nebulous" is your stance on technology, basically : "Technology should be checked because it is getting out of hand". To understand what is out of order one needs understand order, or at least within the context of a specific goal/issue.

I don't think you understand how individuality works, just cause we have similarities here and there, it is impossible for people to not be individual, not everyones genetics are the same and not everyones experiences are the same. To say there is no individuality is absurd. As for technology being over relied on, Im guessing you haven't noticed a sharp decline in work ethic or the loss in jobs.

[Enki]

lol, OK you win.

[The Joker]

First of all society is reality so far as we can perceive it, there is no thought we think that is not or would not (had there been no society) socially derived. We cannot conceive or perceive of anything outside of our own existences (i.e absolute nothingness), so for better or worse we are stuck with society. As for the gender problems I strongly agree, I feel that gynocentrism runs rampant in this society, the problems of men (which is only addressed by MRA/MGTOW) needs to be addressed instead of constantly babbling over the problems of women (when in reality women constitute a fair portion of the problem). Also I agree on the technology part, western society is all about progress. Progress this, progress that, we never stop and think whether too much of this or too much of that will have any consequences, there has to be a balance in all things lest the scale tip over and we face the consequences of over-endeavoring for lack of a better term. Technology is far beyond society, and we are too immature to handle highly advanced technology at this point in our lives. We are on the verge of taking a star and placing it in a box and thus ensuring our species having 150 billion years of renewable, clean energy and yet our congress cannot decide on where to have lunch, or has you fooled that it can't decide. No we're not ready, man feels he is capable of transcendence when he does not fully understand the ramifications of his ambitions, when he hasn't truly looked at his own nature closely, you can't escape your nature, you are forever bound to it so long as you live. But no worry at some point we will either realize our mistakes and tone it down, or nature (for better or worse) will come calling back to us and I feel we won't like the result of that.

[Spectre/Ex/Machina]

First of all society is reality so far as we can perceive it, there is no thought we think that is not or would not (had there been no society) socially derived. We cannot conceive or perceive of anything outside of our own existences (i.e absolute nothingness), so for better or worse we are stuck with society. As for the gender problems I strongly agree, I feel that gynocentrism runs rampant in this society, the problems of men (which is only addressed by MRA/MGTOW) needs to be addressed instead of constantly babbling over the problems of women (when in reality women constitute a fair portion of the problem). Also I agree on the technology part, western society is all about progress. Progress this, progress that, we never stop and think whether too much of this or too much of that will have any consequences, there has to be a balance in all things lest the scale tip over and we face the consequences of over-endeavoring for lack of a better term. Technology is far beyond society, and we are too immature to handle highly advanced technology at this point in our lives. We are on the verge of taking a star and placing it in a box and thus ensuring our species having 150 billion years of renewable, clean energy and yet our congress cannot decide on where to have lunch, or has you fooled that it can't decide. No we're not ready, man feels he is capable of transcendence when he does not fully understand the ramifications of his ambitions, when he hasn't truly looked at his own nature closely, you can't escape your nature, you are forever bound to it so long as you live. But no worry at some point we will either realize our mistakes and tone it down, or nature (for better or worse) will come calling back to us and I feel we won't like the result of that.

You just agreed with me. Society is not reality, because it is built on assumptions and ideas that are not natural, and in some cases it's an attempt to subvert nature to transcend it. We can indeed change this, but first we must own up to our short comings and allow ourselves to evolve.

[Sally]

Reality includes assumptions and ideas that are not "natural" (whatever that means). And who's "we"? There is no generalized "we", because people are part of individual societies, with individual realities.

Evolution is a gradual process over hundreds of thousands of years, not within one society.

[Spectre/Ex/Machina]

Reality includes assumptions and ideas that are not "natural" (whatever that means). And who's "we"? There is no generalized "we", because people are part of individual societies, with individual realities.

Evolution is a gradual process over hundreds of thousands of years, not within one society.

Ummm nope. Reality is what is, not what you believe. There is a generalized "we" because we the individual are apart of society. The word evolution can be used to mean gradual change in something.

[The Joker]

Hmm yeah I suppose I did end up agreeing with you, my fault I was seeing what you said from a different point, thanks for pointing that out.

Yeah it does need to change if we are going to live for any significant length of time. Do you feel gender problems are the first thing that needs to be addressed?

[The Joker]

Though I must first ask the questions Illuminatus, does it even matter? Is it worth it? I mean you could look at the antinatalists (and they have a point) life is always filled with suffering (which is far more powerful and potent than pleasure and happiness as indicated by suicide) and therefore life is essentially more trouble than its worth. Is it really worth it to try and better our species, and attempt to build something lasting only to have it crushed and wiped from existence forever?

[poindexter]

You have formed your views by drawing upon the evidence you see in the world around you, and by interacting with people, seeing the effect that technology and gender norms have on people. That is the fundamental essence society.

You are as much a product of your society as those you condemn.

[Spectre/Ex/Machina]

Hmm yeah I suppose I did end up agreeing with you, my fault I was seeing what you said from a different point, thanks for pointing that out.

Yeah it does need to change if we are going to live for any significant length of time. Do you feel gender problems are the first thing that needs to be addressed?

Yes the gender thing needs addressing first because it seems to be the cradle of most issues. Also, money in politics.

[Spectre/Ex/Machina]

You have formed your views by drawing upon the evidence you see in the world around you, and by interacting with people, seeing the effect that technology and gender norms have on people. That is the fundamental essence society.

You are as much a product of your society as those you condemn.

I like to think that I have far more free will then you would recognize. I may have been born in the society Im of, but I clearly don't care to follow it's rules blindly. I am critical and won't stand down till improvement have been made.

[Spectre/Ex/Machina]

Though I must first ask the questions Illuminatus, does it even matter? Is it worth it? I mean you could look at the antinatalists (and they have a point) life is always filled with suffering (which is far more powerful and potent than pleasure and happiness as indicated by suicide) and therefore life is essentially more trouble than its worth. Is it really worth it to try and better our species, and attempt to build something lasting only to have it crushed and wiped from existence forever?

Without suffering, we as a species would not progress. Without pleasure, we are unable to take joy in the progress we suffered for. It is the grim and beautiful balance of nature. I believe that we are worth fighting for, I love my species and would love to contribute towards its betterment.

[poindexter]

You have formed your views by drawing upon the evidence you see in the world around you, and by interacting with people, seeing the effect that technology and gender norms have on people. That is the fundamental essence society.

You are as much a product of your society as those you condemn.

I like to think that I have far more free will then you would recognize. I may have been born in the society Im of, but I clearly don't care to follow it's rules blindly. I am critical and won't stand down till improvement have been made.

Free will and society are not mutually exclusive. We can choose to educate ourselves and inform our opinions, we can overcome societal pressure, but we can still be part of and accept our place within society. Your problems have more to do with ignorance, conformity and close-mindedness than society itself.

[Spectre/Ex/Machina]

You have formed your views by drawing upon the evidence you see in the world around you, and by interacting with people, seeing the effect that technology and gender norms have on people. That is the fundamental essence society.

You are as much a product of your society as those you condemn.

I like to think that I have far more free will then you would recognize. I may have been born in the society Im of, but I clearly don't care to follow it's rules blindly. I am critical and won't stand down till improvement have been made.

Free will and society are not mutually exclusive. We can choose to educate ourselves and inform our opinions, we can overcome societal pressure, but we can still be part of and accept our place within society. Your problems have more to do with ignorance, conformity and close-mindedness than society itself.

You do realize that by stating that you can overcome societies pressures, you are agreeing that society is full of shit. That society is not reality. If society were reality, it would be truth and un-overcomeable.

[poindexter]

Being a member of a society does not mean you have to conform to all aspects of it. For example, just off the top of my head, if all your friends are smokers and they think that smoking is great and they think you should join them, it does not mean you are obliged to take up smoking. It also does not mean that you have to stop being their friend.

Apply that to any of the things you mentioned - technology, gender norms etc, and you see that it is possible to conform and not conform and still be a member of society.

Wherever two or more human beings interact on a regular basis, you will find society. If you want to escape it, you have the option to go and live alone in a hut in the middle of nowhere.