Kink, BDSM, and Cake

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[Ms.Frankenstein]

A question for this thread:

Soon (don't know exactly when) a new subforum will open in TGA where we will move all sex related topics that might be considered TMI. Would you all prefer for this topic to stay in the main Gray Area, or would you like it to move? I don't mind it either way, although the mod in me thinks it might be better to move it.

Thanks much :)

Since BDSM isn't actually about sex (although it can be) I think it should stay here. A lot on people thing wrongly that BDSM is always sexual. I don't think that we should perpetuate that by putting it in the sex subforum.

[superseen1]

A question for this thread:

Soon (don't know exactly when) a new subforum will open in TGA where we will move all sex related topics that might be considered TMI. Would you all prefer for this topic to stay in the main Gray Area, or would you like it to move? I don't mind it either way, although the mod in me thinks it might be better to move it.

Thanks much :)

Since BDSM isn't actually about sex (although it can be) I think it should stay here. A lot on people thing wrongly that BDSM is always sexual. I don't think that we should perpetuate that by putting it in the sex subforum.

I agree with Ms. Frankenstein's points that:

A) By textbook definition, BDSM does not incorporate sex

B) A sizable number of people correlate sexual activities with BDSM

With that being said however, perhaps it might be an idea to first define what this community considers to be "BDSM," whether that be the textbook definition or something else, before deciding the fate of this forum. At least if everyone - or else a majority of individuals - are going by a mutually agreed upon definition of BDSM then this not only clears up the waters on where this forum ends up but can also help serve as a benchmark/precedent for community members who have yet to discover this forum and who may ask some of the questions that we are discussing now?

[borealmist]

A question for this thread:

Soon (don't know exactly when) a new subforum will open in TGA where we will move all sex related topics that might be considered TMI. Would you all prefer for this topic to stay in the main Gray Area, or would you like it to move? I don't mind it either way, although the mod in me thinks it might be better to move it.

Thanks much :)

I think that depends a bit on the name and description of the subforum. I agree with the ToccattaGirl and Ms.Frankenstein that avoiding perpetuating the conflation between BDSM and sex would be a good idea on AVEN, since realizing that distinction might be important for those coming to terms with what can seem to be a strange discrepancy.

There is also the issue of visibility, it would be unfortunate if it got hidden away together with things that might TMI a lot of people for completely different reasons than the BDSM contents. When there can be so completely different things involved it's almost impossible to draw any specific line as people will have so different reactions; it's no longer a difference in level of explicitness, it's a difference in nature.

So if the subforum was called "Explicit sex!", then, no, I don't think it should be moved (although it might be useful to have a sister sticky there, where any BDSM discussion involving explicit sex could be held).

If it was called "Alternative intimacy", then moving it could be good, but then it wouldn't quite match the TMI purpose.

So... Too Little Information :)

[Ms.Frankenstein]

I really like the idea of a sister thread for the sex stuff. Maybe "power exchange" in this forum and "kinky sex" in the other (or something along those lines). Then again, that may confuse things a bit.

[scarletlatitude]

Thanks for the responses. There was some debate among the admods as to whether this thread should move or not. I agree that this isn't necessarily TMI so it can stay put. :) Although once the new subforum opens, you all are welcome to make another thread there if you want to.

[borealmist]

Although once the new subforum opens, you all are welcome to make another thread there if you want to.

Ok, then we can have a Kink, BDSM and Sex thread there, and keep the Cake related stuff in this one. :).

Hmm, as we're talking whole threads and not forums here, how would it work when dealing with individual posts?

[Guest birdlady47]

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[Skwarlogirl12]

My boyfriend likes to take part in Kitten Play but I'm new to it so I was wondering If anyone could tell me more about it.

Please and Thank-you!

[borealmist]

My boyfriend likes to take part in Kitten Play but I'm new to it so I was wondering If anyone could tell me more about it.

Please and Thank-you!

Welcome to AVEN! Have some cake :cake: :)

Kitten play is basically roleplay, or embracing feline attributes of identity, and doing various kitten or cat like things ranging from sunbathing and nuzzling to chasing and playing. Sometimes with gear such as ears and a tail.

There's a fairly large kitten community at Fetlife, and there seems to be several aces into it there as well.

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[Feral_Sophisticate]

My boyfriend likes to take part in Kitten Play but I'm new to it so I was wondering If anyone could tell me more about it.

Please and Thank-you!

Welcome to AVEN! Have some cake :cake: :)

Kitten play is basically roleplay, or embracing feline attributes of identity, and doing various kitten or cat like things ranging from sunbathing and nuzzling to chasing and playing. Sometimes with gear such as ears and a tail.

There's a fairly large kitten community at Fetlife, and there seems to be several aces into it there as well.

That sounds *adorable* I'm going to die of cuteness overload. I didn't even know that was a thing.

Oh, it totally is "a thing". My girl often goes into "cat" or "bunny" mode (or, even sometimes into Pokemon mode, but that's more of a cosplay thing). Hell, we sometimes do fetish medical scenes where she's a nekomimi.

I know a few kittens in the local (and FetLife) community. Some of them are a lot of fun at events, especially those focusing on non sexual play (like tickle parties).

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[Feral_Sophisticate]

One day I will be brave enough to go to kink events...one day.

Well, if you ever visit the Toronto area, I'll be happy to chaperone you to one. I've done that for more than a few friends in the past, and will gladly do it as long as I have breath in me. :)

[GwendolynAngel83]

My boyfriend likes to take part in Kitten Play but I'm new to it so I was wondering If anyone could tell me more about it.

Please and Thank-you!

Welcome to AVEN! Have some cake :cake: :)

Kitten play is basically roleplay, or embracing feline attributes of identity, and doing various kitten or cat like things ranging from sunbathing and nuzzling to chasing and playing. Sometimes with gear such as ears and a tail.

There's a fairly large kitten community at Fetlife, and there seems to be several aces into it there as well.

Oh....oh my goodness.....that sounds amazing. I tend to have very cat-like behaviors in showing affection to anyone I care about (nuzzling, curling up next to them, etc. and I love making cat-like noises) so that sounds like something is enjoy a lot. That's a fetish thing? I wouldn't have thought of it like that, though now that I am it makes sense.

On a different note, how hard would you guys say iris to find someone willing to try new things with you bsm/fetish wise without them expecting any sort of romantic or sexual relationship from it?

[Feral_Sophisticate]

Oh....oh my goodness.....that sounds amazing. I tend to have very cat-like behaviors in showing affection to anyone I care about (nuzzling, curling up next to them, etc. and I love making cat-like noises) so that sounds like something is enjoy a lot. That's a fetish thing? I wouldn't have thought of it like that, though now that I am it makes sense.

On a different note, how hard would you guys say iris to find someone willing to try new things with you bsm/fetish wise without them expecting any sort of romantic or sexual relationship from it?

My girl does the nuzzling, curling next to me and the cat-like mewling noises all the time. Usually to get something she wants. I cave far more often than I would if she'd just asked me.

Yeah, I'm a pushover that way, sometimes.

As for how hard it is to find someone who will try the fetishy stuff with you, without entitlement or expectation making things difficult... Well, that depends on the person. If you go slow, you tend to weed out the ones that want to use the fetish stuff to get into your pants. Generally, a good partner will wait, and not pressure you. One that won't wait, or that pressures you, likely isn't a good fit.

At least, that's been my girl's experience. I know I'm probably the first guy who did stuff with her, without expecting more. If you're on FetLife, let me know, and I can send you a link for the story on how we met (there isn't any TMI bits in it).

[borealmist]

That is awesome, geeze I still have a ton to learn. I cannot get over how adorable that is and it sounds amazingly fun.

One day I will be brave enough to go to kink events...one day.

Yes, it is quite adorable :).

To maybe help you a bit on the bravery part, my own reinvolvement in the local kink community is going well, and I've been to one fetish event and two munch-like things. The first munch-thing was a bar hang, basically just about a dozen locals hanging out at one of the alternative-friendly bars, about a third newbies, one or two of the oldtimers in fetish clothing. The arranger is very careful with keeping undesirable elements away, to ensure that people can feel relaxed, so no unwanted touching, etc.

The second was a cafe in one of the community-owned facilities here, where I had some pie and coffee and people were playing Cards against Humanity, very relaxed and pleasant.

There was very little kink-related awkwardness, more the usual meeting new people awkwardness, compounded a bit with the problem of talking with strangers about everything but the specific things you have in common. That's helped a lot by experienced organizers providing social activities like games of course. And organizers introducing some newbies who wanted help.

It feels a bit strange that it took figuring out the ace thing to start feeling more comfortable with the bdsm thing again. But right now I'm in a really good place.

[borealmist]

Oh....oh my goodness.....that sounds amazing. I tend to have very cat-like behaviors in showing affection to anyone I care about (nuzzling, curling up next to them, etc. and I love making cat-like noises) so that sounds like something is enjoy a lot. That's a fetish thing? I wouldn't have thought of it like that, though now that I am it makes sense.

On a different note, how hard would you guys say iris to find someone willing to try new things with you bsm/fetish wise without them expecting any sort of romantic or sexual relationship from it?

Mmm, I have very cat like behaviour with my cats at least. And some people too. :) There's a huge range of things falling under the kink/fetish umbrella, and as the community is usually very accepting and inclusive it can often become the natural gathering place for tangential expressions of identity and affection.

On meeting people willing to try new things, like Feral_Sophisticate said, it will depend a lot on who it is, and that's one of the reasons I think it's important to actually join and become part of the community without necessarily playing or forming any romantic relationships at first. Then you'll usually be able to find people who will play with friends without involving sex or relationships in it. At the bigger events there can often be opportunities to try some things out as well.

[Feral_Sophisticate]

On meeting people willing to try new things, like Feral_Sophisticate said, it will depend a lot on who it is, and that's one of the reasons I think it's important to actually join and become part of the community without necessarily playing or forming any romantic relationships at first. Then you'll usually be able to find people who will play with friends without involving sex or relationships in it. At the bigger events there can often be opportunities to try some things out as well.

This ^^^

SO true. :)

[Yatogami]

I have way too many fetishes, and almost all of them don't involve other people. They only kink's I have, have to do with technology. Glad to see I am not the only one on here. XD

[Ricecream-man]

Oh....oh my goodness.....that sounds amazing. I tend to have very cat-like behaviors in showing affection to anyone I care about (nuzzling, curling up next to them, etc. and I love making cat-like noises) so that sounds like something is enjoy a lot. That's a fetish thing? I wouldn't have thought of it like that, though now that I am it makes sense.

On a different note, how hard would you guys say iris to find someone willing to try new things with you bsm/fetish wise without them expecting any sort of romantic or sexual relationship from it?

My girl does the nuzzling, curling next to me and the cat-like mewling noises all the time. Usually to get something she wants. I cave far more often than I would if she'd just asked me.

Yeah, I'm a pushover that way, sometimes.

As for how hard it is to find someone who will try the fetishy stuff with you, without entitlement or expectation making things difficult... Well, that depends on the person. If you go slow, you tend to weed out the ones that want to use the fetish stuff to get into your pants. Generally, a good partner will wait, and not pressure you. One that won't wait, or that pressures you, likely isn't a good fit.

At least, that's been my girl's experience. I know I'm probably the first guy who did stuff with her, without expecting more. If you're on FetLife, let me know, and I can send you a link for the story on how we met (there isn't any TMI bits in it).

Haha, I don't think anyone could blame you for being a pushover in that situation :P

To add on to what Feral_Sophisticate said, there are a lot of groups that don't allow for sexual play during their meets at all without prior approval. There's one in San Antonio that I go to which is like that. I'm sure there are some up in Austin as well depending on which drive is easier for you.

Another option you can look at, if you're not looking for romantic or sexual obligations is to find someone at one of your local dungeons who's already partnered but is comfortable topping others. There are quite a few people out there who I know of who are perfectly okay with that kind of interaction once they get to know and like you as a person.

Check out Fet, look up local events and the rules for them, and if you want to be extra sure message the group owners (although they're sometimes inactive) or the event hosts for clarification.

[Holy Ghost]

I came to lurk, I don't have a kink or a libido but I was curious. I watched this episode of Forever where Dr. Morgan went and experimented with BDSM, I couldn't stop laughing.. It looked so awkward but it seems fun XD. Asexuals with kinks and fetishes are quite interesting.

[Feral_Sophisticate]

I came to lurk, I don't have a kink or a libido but I was curious. I watched this episode of Forever where Dr. Morgan went and experimented with BDSM, I couldn't stop laughing.. It looked so awkward but it seems fun XD. Asexuals with kinks and fetishes are quite interesting.

Indeed, they are. My experience to date with asexuals who have (and recognize) their kinks has been a positive (and highly rewarding) one.

[Flyaway4me]

I haven't identified with the BDSM community honestly until recently because I always felt as if sex was necessary for it to "count", you know? Realizing that you don't have to get so far as to have sex with someone made me realize that is is not as foreign to me as I thought it was. Are there any Female/Feminine identifying dominants out there?

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[scarletlatitude]

I think that I would enjoy being a dominant if I had the opportunity, and I am (mostly) female. :) It's definitely a possibility.

[Lazo]

I think BDSM psychology is really interesting, although it's challenging to truly understand what drives people to seek out this type of behaviour. First of all there's the intrinsic difficulty of understanding our minds, complex little things that they are. But on top of that, there's the stigma that surrounds BDSM and the consequent effect that this stigma has had on research efforts and opportunities. Still, it seems to me like the stigma is reducing day-by-day, so hopefully there'll be less conjecture in the future when it comes to figuring out what's going on - and why so many people like to engage in activities that, on the surface, seem harmful to the practitioner.

Anyway, with that to one side, I'll offer up some of my thoughts as to why D/s can be appealing. I'm speaking as someone who is sub/bottom for the most part, so the dom(me)/top psyche is more of a mystery to me.

1. The appeal of masochism:

This is one of the easier ones to understand. It's rather well-known that receiving pain can trigger a neurochemical release that feels amazing. Non-kinky people too, for the most part, appreciate certain kinds of pain. The pain of a workout or a tough run, the pain of a cold shower, the pain of a sports massage, etc. Why are these pleasurable, when there's a clear element of pain? Well...because these activities are accompanied by a release of feel-good chemicals, which more than make up for the unpleasantness. Similarly, pain in a sexual context can bring pleasure that far outweighs any discomfort.

2. Embracing the nature of life:

I don't know how many people I can speak for when I make this point, but this is how I see this point: Life is not rosy all the time, suffering is an inescapable fact of life. Some philosophies, such as Buddhism, go so far as to view suffering as being at the core of embodied existence. On a deep psychic level I think it's very difficult to come to accept this fact. BDSM, I feel, can offer a healthy way of coming to terms with the impermanence of life, with the fact that - in the end - our bodies will decay, and we will be overwhelmed by forces far greater than our own. We face a curious paradox every day that we live on this earth. On the one hand, we should strive towards self-preservation; on the other, we must accept that - sooner or later - we will all fall victim to forces greater than our own. Time will continue to tick along, and sooner or later, there will come a time where each and every one of us must learn to let go. For me, submission is at times a type of spiritual surrender. To let go of the animalistic drive towards self-preservation, to embrace the fact that, on a fundamental level, we have less control over the flow of our lives than most of us would like to have...these are things that I believe carefully practiced BDSM can provide a safe haven to explore these thoughts and emotions. I am not surprised that recent studies point towards BDSM practitioners as being rather mentally stable. It can be very cleansing.

3. A deep symbolic commitment to your partner:

When you submit to someone, you are indicating a desire to please them so strong, that you will endure all necessary hardships just to satisfy your prerogative - that is, to satisfy your partner. Of course, in the real world it doesn't quite work like that. There are going to be limits on both the sub and dom(me)'s part, and no matter how much you want to please your partner, there are going to be certain things that turn you off to the point where you will quickly snap out of the role you are in if presented with such a suggestion. But I do think that many submissive's preferred kinks are rooted in this desire to please, "at any cost". I also think that it's interesting to reflect on the non-kinky view of 'selfless' behavior i.e. actions that you take for the good of others. It is well-researched that a life of gratitude and a life of servitude, where one dedicates their life to the betterment of the world, of society, of their friends and family, tends to bring a truer happiness than if one instead engages in hedonistic pursuits. If a sub finds a partner who is deserving of such dedication, then the very act of giving oneself to another, can be a great opportunity for growth for the submissive.

4. Connection through vulnerability

Everybody knows that many people go through their lives 'shut off'. In fact, I would venture to say that almost everyone has certain parts of themselves that are shut off to outsiders. Because, in a sense, we all have to wear a mask. We all have our frailties and our insecurities, and our perceived weaknesses. But, in the dog eat dog society that surrounds us, you can get eaten alive if you do not develop a protective layer, an ego, a persona. It's not a bad thing in and of itself, in fact, it's a necessary thing. But, the danger is that one can forget how to drop the mask and show your true nature to those who will not betray this trust. And that is essentially what such an act is about: trust. It is pulling back the curtain on one's identity, and sharing one with another as they are, warts and all. But such an act of trust is crucial, because it is only in this space that the human connection we need is to be found. I think D/s properly done is a wonderful catalyst for true connection. One party is surrendering themselves fully to another, while the dominant must assume the responsibility of ultimately preserving the well-being of their partner. It is this delicate dynamic that can foster the sturdiest of connections.

5. The neuroscience of fetishes

Another factor that plays a role is that certain kinks or fetishes can have a simple neurological reason for their appeal. For example, the foot fetish is probably the most common fetish out there - at least among guys. Interestingly, studies have shown that the brain area that manages your genitalia is adjacent to the area concerning feet. So, for subscribers of the 'cross-talk' theory, a foot fetish may very well be the result of a neurological overlap. In the same way that our hands and feet aren't perfectly equal, or our faces aren't perfectly symmetrical, we are all wired a little irregularly, and, depending on the affected region, that may have an effect on our sexual proclivities.

6. The influence of traditional sexual roles

It's interesting that there is a greater number of sub-leaning males than there is domme-leaning females in the general population. Perhaps one of the reasons why so many males identify as submissive is because, historically speaking, the male has usually adopted the role of pursuer, and the woman of pursued. Biological reasons, such as the fact that women are the ones who must go through pregnancy and should therefore be particularly selective when deciding on a sexual partner, may offer an explanation for why these are the roles played between the two sexes over the course of most of our evolution.

Anyway, if you consider that men's sexual advances are more frequent (and, consequently, more frequently rejected by the women they are propositioning), it stands to reason that rejection is an unavoidable reality for both genders, but over the course of our history, perhaps particularly so for men. And yet, for a man to avoid rejection altogether would be a terrible strategy. It could, after all, only be fully avoided if one doesn't try at all, and the reasons why this strategy would not be an intelligent one should be pretty obvious. But, even avoiding most rejection might indicate that the man is not trying often enough, or avoiding pursuing women who he considers are 'above his league'. And yet, from the selfish evolutionary perspective, the ideal partners are in fact the most 'high-value' females. i.e. the ones whose characteristics indicate strong, healthy genetics. But, these women are going to attract a greater number of males. So, naturally they must be more selective than the average female. Thus, there is an expected correlation between the 'mating value' of a female, and her choosiness.

It's this last part that can be played with in the case of D/s (where the woman is the dominant). The woman may well act as though she is unwilling to be pursued, that the pursuer is not worthy of her affection. And yet, this is ultimately a facade in the context of a D/s relationship. Ultimately, the woman does accept the man. It seems to me that there are a lot of women who enjoy this aspect of being dominant over their partner: being able to control when things escalate, and when things don't. A substantial number of dominant women appear to be drawn towards keeping their partners in chastity, and releasing them from chastity only when they see fit, for example.

7. The allure of the taboo

I don't have any real theory as to why it's the case, but I personally find it hot when a partner has a 'dark side' to her. Maybe it's because life can be cut-throat at times, maybe it's because unexpected reactions or thought processes make a partner more mysterious, I don't know. Or maybe just because it's taboo, but I find something appealing about a woman breaking the stereotype of 'the fairer sex', the nurturing kind, and instead, being sadistic. Laughing at their sub in pain, where one might expect sympathy. An act of callousness when one might expect kindness. Indifference when one might expect concern. That's what I meant when I started by calling it the 'dark side'. If human beings can be said to be a mixed bag of virtue and vice, of constructive behavior and destructive ones, I find a certain appeal in exploring the darker sides of human nature. It's awesome to be able to explore these things in the context of a caring relationship with someone who, ultimately, is anything but unkind or uncaring.

Anyway, that's about it. I hope my views weren't offensive to anyone, I can't vouch for any of my thoughts to hold true, and I'm certainly no psychologist or neuroscientist. But I hope it proved an interesting read - even if it was a little one-sided (the perspective of a male sub). I just thought I'd post since I didn't see much by way of people trying to explain what it is that they find appealing about D/s.

[Ms.Frankenstein]

To Lazo's post I would add, some of us subs are just "wired funny" and pain doesn't really register as pain. Add someone with sensory issues, I require strong sensations for my mental and emotional well being. The physical aspects of BDSM are one way to get it (but not the only way, and before I understood what sensory dysfunction was, I did things that were far more harmful in order to get the sensations that I craved.)

[Lazo]

To Lazo's post I would add, some of us subs are just "wired funny" and pain doesn't really register as pain. Add someone with sensory issues, I require strong sensations for my mental and emotional well being. The physical aspects of BDSM are one way to get it (but not the only way, and before I understood what sensory dysfunction was, I did things that were far more harmful in order to get the sensations that I craved.)

This is a very good point. I think people's way of processing sensory information varies, even in non-kinky circles and even in the case of people who don't have a particular condition. You can see this in regular life in many situations, like when people go for a massage. Some people crave a very intense massage, while for others anything more than a soft massage becomes unpleasant.

On a personal note, I'm totally with you. I need strong sensations too to feel good, few things can make you feel more alive!

(Also, I never thought of the role that something like sensory dysfunction could have on sadomasochistic desires, that's really interesting.)

[scarletlatitude]

So I was on Pinterest (as I usually am when it's too late for me to concentrate on anything but I don't want to go to bed yet), and I found this: http://www.tickld.com/x/many-women-do-not-agree-with-me-on-this-subject-but-its-important