Is there any Asexual History?

[Guest]

Apocryphes mention that Jesus had a wife.

[Cyllya]

Doesn't Matthew 5:27-28 indicate that, according to Jesus Christ, feeling sexual attraction is a sin? Sorry I can't figure out how to paste the text on my tablet, but it basically says not only shalt thou not commit adultery, but feeling lust toward a woman is committing adultery with her in your heart. (He's talking to a bunch of guys, but it presumably still applies in other gender combinations.) This is quoting Jesus too, rather than some other random shmoe the Church decided to worship.

Even though it probably wasn't any more biologically prevalent at the time, it seems that asexuality was the expected social norm in the Victorian era. A sex drive in a woman was pretty much considered a medical problem, and it was treated with equipment that basically worked like a sex toy. It was frowned upon for men too though. It's my understanding that Christianity didn't originally do genital cutting--the reason male genital cutting was recently (or still is) prevalent in a lot of Christian-majority populations is because it was restarted in the Victorian era as a way to reduce sexual pleasure or punish masturbation. Then the trend stuck, and since society now thinks sex is cool, they say genital cutting makes sex better (but only for men being cut).

[Member54880]

Doesn't Matthew 5:27-28 indicate that, according to Jesus Christ, feeling sexual attraction is a sin? Sorry I can't figure out how to paste the text on my tablet, but it basically says not only shalt thou not commit adultery, but feeling lust toward a woman is committing adultery with her in your heart. (He's talking to a bunch of guys, but it presumably still applies in other gender combinations.) This is quoting Jesus too, rather than some other random shmoe the Church decided to worship.

Even though it probably wasn't any more biologically prevalent at the time, it seems that asexuality was the expected social norm in the Victorian era. A sex drive in a woman was pretty much considered a medical problem, and it was treated with equipment that basically worked like a sex toy. It was frowned upon for men too though. It's my understanding that Christianity didn't originally do genital cutting--the reason male genital cutting was recently (or still is) prevalent in a lot of Christian-majority populations is because it was restarted in the Victorian era as a way to reduce sexual pleasure or punish masturbation. Then the trend stuck, and since society now thinks sex is cool, they say genital cutting makes sex better (but only for men being cut).

That depends on what 'lust' is defined as. Some Christians define lust as being sexual objectification, but some sects, notably within fundamentalist Christianity, do say that sexual attraction itself is lust, and it's adultery to have sexual thoughts before marriage.

The Victorian era had very different standards towards sexuality on the basis of gender, race, class, and sexuality. The norms associated with the Victorian era mainly only applied to white, middle- or upper-class heterosexual women, and it was really common for them to be pathologized for experiencing any sexual interest. Masturbation was highly frowned upon back then for everyone, and there were a lot of efforts to fight against it, but a lot of men went to brothels, even married men, but it was just that they weren't supposed to talk about it. It was actually during the Victorian era that red light districts emerged.

[Adogg]

It's impossible to answer that question without anything but mere speculation. I'd say it began within the last 10-20 years with emergence into the main stream.

[-deleted-]

This is an interesting topic but I am cautious when it comes to imposing sexuality on to people. I know that I dislike it when people do that to me.

[Guest]

_{I'm just very interested in asexual history. I've done some of researches on asexual historical figures. I posted a thread on this a time ago, you can find it just here:}

_{http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/97282-historical-aces-my-assumptions/}

_{There are also many of them mentioned in AVENWiki}

_{I read one book on Polish noble families where I found an info that some of those families had many still unmarried members.}

_{It's really hard to research asexuality in history due to lack of proper resources. You have to rely on your mind and logic.}

How about this book I mentioned, here is it:

http://www.dig.com.pl/index.php?s=karta&id=555

Unfortunately the book is in Polish, I'm not sure if it's translated into other languages.

[KendraPM]

It was a bit later (can't remember exactly when, but it happened during a sexual revolution, and typically the one that springs to mind is the late 50's/early 60's, but I think I've heard talk of others in the past,) but at one point asexuality was just beginning to be brought up and discussed, people coming out all over the place and saying they didn't experience sexual attraction, and scientists studying it and claiming it as a legit thing. Then the sexual revolution began and suddenly not having sexual attraction was unnatural and bad. England tried to pass a law stating any unmarried woman over the age of thirty had to be shipped off to Australia quoting studies that claimed that the people who felt no sexual desire where a threat to society and would infect the younger generation. Again, that all happened later, but it does at least put asexuality having been acknowledged as early as the 50's.

[Guest]

I have never heard about this law. As I remember from school, In Poland, during 50s there was a special tax for unmarried men called 'bykowe' but I don't think it had anything common with asexuality but I'm not sure. I think they wanted to raise the fertility ratio. As I know Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia tried to pass a similar taxes.

[praetorius]

Apocryphes mention that Jesus had a wife.

Various apocryphal gospels are typically dated to a couple centuries after the "canonical" Gospels, which were recorded a century or two after the events in question. They're more "Bible fanfic by people who thought Jesus needed more sexytimes" than historically relevant documents about Jesus' life (though they do provide interesting views on what was going on in splinter Christian groups at that later date).

[Guest]

Many apocryphes were written in the same time as gospels but they weren't included into the Biblical cannon on various synods.

[KendraPM]

The law didn't pass, but it was brought up. There were other factors at play as well. Women outnumbered men for starters, so an excuse to make the numbers on each side equal again was looked at favorably.

[Tarfeather]

England tried to pass a law stating any unmarried woman over the age of thirty had to be shipped off to Australia quoting studies that claimed that the people who felt no sexual desire where a threat to society and would infect the younger generation.

Source? And "some nutjob came up with the idea and was immediately shut down" isn't the same as "England tried to pass" btw.. That in my understanding of the phrase would imply it was actually put to the vote.

[Viridzen]

Here are some pretty neat links I found once:

http://fuckyeahasexual.tumblr.com/post/123573513473/autismserenity-oodlenoodleroodle

https://acinghistory.wordpress.com/2015/03/24/what-is-asexual-history-part-two-the-19th-and-20th-century-2/

[KendraPM]

England tried to pass a law stating any unmarried woman over the age of thirty had to be shipped off to Australia quoting studies that claimed that the people who felt no sexual desire where a threat to society and would infect the younger generation.

Source? And "some nutjob came up with the idea and was immediately shut down" isn't the same as "England tried to pass" btw.. That in my understanding of the phrase would imply it was actually put to the vote.

I'll try to find it. It was months ago I found the article. It was an interesting read, at least for me. I don't remember how far the law got or anything (plus, my lack of understanding on England's law system probably doesn't help). I just remember bits and pieces.

I mainly brought it up because someone said something about asexuality being only acknowledged in the past 10 years or so. But they were doing studies then, so that at least gives asexuality a documented history back 50+ years.

[Guest]

I have never heard about this law. As I remember from school, In Poland, during 50s there was a special tax for unmarried men called 'bykowe' but I don't think it had anything common with asexuality but I'm not sure. I think they wanted to raise the fertility ratio. As I know Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia tried to pass a similar taxes.

Yesterday I heard one woman in morning show. I don't remember if she was a psychologist or not but she suggested that 'bykowe' should be reintroduced for 40 years + single males as males prefer to stay with their parents and don't want to run the family but then she was asked if it also would concern women as there is a gender equality and she looked very astonished. Sometimes I don't understand why such educated people have such middle-age like ideas. :(

[b_oat]

Several countries had laws that actually specified that sex must be part of marriage.

[Guest]

Several countries had laws that actually specified that sex must be part of marriage.

Which countries do you mean?

[Bristol]

Well, traditionally one of the few grounds for annulment that churches were happy with was that the marriage was not "consummated" - if you think that sounds like a euphemism, you're right.

In UK law (with an exception for gay marriage): http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1973/18?view=extent#section-12

[Guest]

I have learnt recently that Ukrainian poet Taras Schevchenko could have been an ace as there is any mention that he had any love affairs or children.

[Telecaster68]

England tried to pass a law stating any unmarried woman over the age of thirty had to be shipped off to Australia quoting studies that claimed that the people who felt no sexual desire where a threat to society and would infect the younger generation.

In the 1950s? It's not something I've ever heard of... (as a Brit). There was a disgraceful episode where we shipped off the children of unmarried mothers to Australia, which I think went from 50s-70s, and told the children their mothers were dead (there was a film 'Oranges and Sunshine' about it), but I've never heard of doing it to unmarried women themselves, just for being unmarried.

[Guest]

There are three other historical people who could have been aces.

Michal Kazimierz Pac ( Mykolas Kazimeras Pacas)- he was a XVII c. Lithuanian military leader. He stayed single all his life and he sustained from marriage, although his family members were encouraging him to marry women. He didn't want because he claimed that 'He is not much experienced in intimate relationships' . His brother was telling that having sex is much easier than commanding the army.

Zsigmond Bathory- Hungarian politician and nobleman, Prince of Transylvania, Prince of Opole. His marriage wasn't consumed . He was claiming that he was avoiding sex because he caught an STI before.

Juliusz Slowacki- Polish Romantic poet. His relationships with women were very distanced.

[booksoversex]

Josephite Marriages. I'm sure there were many such marriages in ages past, since it was a socially acceptable form of expressing asexuality (where Catholicism was dominant). Also, I'm willing to bet many asexuals ended up in monastic life, since there was no pressure within it to have sex. All those scientists who were priests, basically married to their work, nuns who were focused on academics instead... :)

Well, some, sure, but there were a lot of repressed sexuality in such strict religious communities (and is to this day - think of the sex abuse scandals in the Catholic church, for example). Our religion teacher once told us a funny story of a small town (can't remember where it was) surrounded by two hills, with a monastery for monks on one and for nuns on the other, and apparently they while excavating the area lots later found a tunnel going underground from one monastery to the other, below the town... of course, there has been speculated that there are other reasons for this, but our teacher used it as an example to show that the celibacy was not always strong in those communities either, to show that it is unantural to repress an urge which is natural (the same time it is unnatural to force yourself to act like you have an urge which you have not).

[012]

Telsa may have also been ace

I've read that in a few different places.

[Sally]

there were a lot of repressed sexuality in such strict religious communities (and is to this day - think of the sex abuse scandals in the Catholic church, for example).

The sex abuse scandals don't involve "repressed sexuality." They involve expressed sexuality, in the form of child sexual abuse.

[Guest]

Telsa may have also been ace

I've read that in a few different places.

Newton also could have been an ace. I read this somewhere.

[JustJordan]

Apocryphes mention that Jesus had a wife.

That may be in reference to the Catholic Church herself, as she is also called "the bride of Christ" (and like, Catholics refer to the church as a "she")

[JustJordan]

Doesn't Matthew 5:27-28 indicate that, according to Jesus Christ, feeling sexual attraction is a sin? Sorry I can't figure out how to paste the text on my tablet, but it basically says not only shalt thou not commit adultery, but feeling lust toward a woman is committing adultery with her in your heart. (He's talking to a bunch of guys, but it presumably still applies in other gender combinations.) This is quoting Jesus too, rather than some other random shmoe the Church decided to worship.

Even though it probably wasn't any more biologically prevalent at the time, it seems that asexuality was the expected social norm in the Victorian era. A sex drive in a woman was pretty much considered a medical problem, and it was treated with equipment that basically worked like a sex toy. It was frowned upon for men too though. It's my understanding that Christianity didn't originally do genital cutting--the reason male genital cutting was recently (or still is) prevalent in a lot of Christian-majority populations is because it was restarted in the Victorian era as a way to reduce sexual pleasure or punish masturbation. Then the trend stuck, and since society now thinks sex is cool, they say genital cutting makes sex better (but only for men being cut).

In reference to the first part about sexual attraction being a sin: the Catholic church does not consider attraction a sin, but acting upon it outside a marriage or having it in combination with lust. The church recognizes sexual attraction as a thing that many humans experience and that it is plenty natural. The views as to what you do with said attraction are when you reach sin town.

[Siimo van der fietspad]

I have a pet theory that John Ruskin might have been asexual. We can be pretty sure he was sex-repulsed, never had any sexually intimate relationships, and he famously had his wife divorce him for non-consumation. But he also apparently liked teenage girls who were not yet sexually aware.

The trouble with a lot of this speculation is that without finding some genuine piece of evidence - a letter, a diary entry, a comment to a friend - that states they have no interest in sex, we can't be certain about a person's asexuality. We can't really just say 'Ah-ha! X never married and never seemed to like women, so they're probably asexual!' In the past there were more reasons for a sexual to abstain - fear of disease, marrying for political reasons, religious and social pressure, occupations that involved little contact with suitable women, fear of unwanted pregnancy, etc.

And by the way, the evidence seems to be that Victorians were secretly obsessed with sex, just in private.

[One Winged Angel]

I have never heard about this law. As I remember from school, In Poland, during 50s there was a special tax for unmarried men called 'bykowe' but I don't think it had anything common with asexuality but I'm not sure. I think they wanted to raise the fertility ratio. As I know Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia tried to pass a similar taxes.

Yesterday I heard one woman in morning show. I don't remember if she was a psychologist or not but she suggested that 'bykowe' should be reintroduced for 40 years + single males as males prefer to stay with their parents and don't want to run the family but then she was asked if it also would concern women as there is a gender equality and she looked very astonished. Sometimes I don't understand why such educated people have such middle-age like ideas. :(

This 'bykowe' seems like some of the most ludicrous nonsense I've ever had the displeasure of hearing. What people prefer to do is their own goddamn choice and is never, ever the concern of the government. If such a tax was ever introduced in the UK, I would personally launch a revolt against it. Disgusting.

[Guest]

Yesterday I read an article about origins of Polish-Swedish war in 1655-60 in one historical magazine. All this war was made by one guy- Hieronim Radziejowski, the reason was being cheated by his wife who was said to have had a love affair with Polish king. All the story is very complicated so I won't describe it because it's not the right place for this. His wife was accusing him on impotency. He even tried to force her to have sex with one of his military servants and accused her for not wanting it. He didn't have any kids although he was married three times. So he could have been an ace or it was the simple accusing. I'm not sure.