Reginald Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Are there any examples of asexuality in history or does our history basically begin with the establishment of AVEN 10 years ago? We know that there have been asexuals long before AVEN but has there ever been any document examples? I'm talking about journal entries, psychiatric patient records, organizations founded on celibacy that could be associated with asexuality, prominent figures that never took a partner. Is there anything at all that would allow us to claim historical roots for asexuality? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Morgen/Tara Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 My physics teacher said Newton was probably asexual according to letters to and from his friends he never had a women and didn't seem to care. 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chewy Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 did the word platonic come from Plato? If so, I think there might be some writings from Plato or Socrates. Please don't laugh if this sounds stupid ;) 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I'm just very interested in asexual history. I've done some of researches on asexual historical figures. I posted a thread on this a time ago, you can find it just here: http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/97282-historical-aces-my-assumptions/ There are also many of them mentioned in AVENWiki I read one book on Polish noble families where I found an info that some of those families had many still unmarried members. It's really hard to research asexuality in history due to lack of proper resources. You have to rely on your mind and logic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 did the word platonic come from Plato? If so, I think there might be some writings from Plato or Socrates. Please don't laugh if this sounds stupid ;) As far as I'm concerned both Plato and Socrates were gays. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald Posted June 14, 2014 Author Share Posted June 14, 2014 These are great and exactly what I'm looking for. Keep them coming! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chewy Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 did the word platonic come from Plato? If so, I think there might be some writings from Plato or Socrates. Please don't laugh if this sounds stupid ;) As far as I'm concerned both Plato and Socrates were gays. LOL, I don't know. They must be both very busy with their thoughts and didn't have time to think about sexual stuff. LoL. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 did the word platonic come from Plato? If so, I think there might be some writings from Plato or Socrates. Please don't laugh if this sounds stupid ;) As far as I'm concerned both Plato and Socrates were gays. LOL, I don't know. They must be both very busy with their thoughts and didn't have time to think about sexual stuff. LoL. Their works mention homosexual love at all Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chewy Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I found this http://thethinkingasexual.wordpress.com/tag/plato/ "....... the original meaning of “platonic love” comes from Plato’s The Symposium, where the ideal kind of love was described as a kind redirecting the lover’s focus from the beloved (and sex with the beloved) to “the divine” or “philosophy,” basically to an interaction of the mind or some outside pursuit of knowledge. Plato (and Socrates) did not mean to exclude sexuality altogether from this ideal. They condemned the kind of erotic love that keeps two people obsessed with sex and each other’s body, to the point of neglecting those higher ideas, pursuits, etc, but they did not quite say that the ideal love is totally nonsexual. ......." 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Morgen/Tara Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I always wondered if Elizabeth the first was, I mean she's called the virgin queen so it would make sense. It's highly unlikely that would ever be proven, just my personal theory :P 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
littlepersonparadox Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I don't think we would want Plato. Yea the guy was brilliant but he also believed that the metally ill should be killed off. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kellam Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I've heard that the artist Edward Gorey may have been ace. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CNGB Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 There is a book called Forms of Desire, and there is a chapter in it by John Boswell that says this: "The sister-in law of Louis XIV describes the sexual interests of men at the French court in terms almost exactly like modern sexual taxonomies: 'Some prefer women, some like both men and women, some prefer men, some prefer children, and some have little interest in sex at all.' " Perhaps not the most flattering example, but we are around. 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Diforto Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Paul the Apostle and Telsa may have also been ace 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald Posted June 14, 2014 Author Share Posted June 14, 2014 I'm not sure if Elizabeth I is viably ace. She specifically used her womanly wiles (and political power) to lead on Phillip II of Spain. While he chased her with marriage requests she secretly funded pirates to take out the Spanish Armada and the rebels who were trying to win back the Netherlands from Spain. Besides the name the virgin queen comes from her not marrying, it isn't actually any indication about whether she was a virgin or not. Still if Lizzy I was asexual then she was the most bad ass asexual in history. 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sally Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Documented history of asexuals in the past (who are now dead)? Explain how that could be. Because asexual doesn't mean "never had sex" or "possibly never had sex", and documented doesn't mean "I think that Paul was asexual" or "Well, I read they called Elizabeth I the virgin queen". Geez, people. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald Posted June 14, 2014 Author Share Posted June 14, 2014 Documented history of asexuals in the past (who are now dead)? Explain how that could be. People really like to speculate about famous historical figures' sex lives. They tend to look at personal journals and diaries and letters to friends and such. I don't expect anything to be like "Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand wrote in his diary 'I am asexual'" but considering the fact that most of us were able to express our sexual identity before knowing about asexuality I wouldn't be surprised to find someone write something about "I don't seem to experience attraction to either gender" or "I don't understand other people's fascination with sex." Also the mental health industry is historically pretty frightening and I could totally see someone being committed to a psych ward for asexuality. This would be accompanied with countless notes about what the person felt and thought which would surely also raise some flags such as "not attracted to either gender." 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Janus the Fox Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 The World Watch Archives details tonnes of stuff, especially pre-2002 stuff. Looking through the years index covers everything discovered by AVEN members. http://www.asexuality.org/en/forum/108-world-watch-archive/ 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sally Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Reginald, on 14 Jun 2014 - 1:55 PM, said: Sally, on 14 Jun 2014 - 1:49 PM, said:Documented history of asexuals in the past (who are now dead)? Explain how that could be. People really like to speculate about famous historical figures' sex lives. They tend to look at personal journals and diaries and letters to friends and such. I don't expect anything to be like "Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand wrote in his diary 'I am asexual'" but considering the fact that most of us were able to express our sexual identity before knowing about asexuality I wouldn't be surprised to find someone write something about "I don't seem to experience attraction to either gender" or "I don't understand other people's fascination with sex." Also the mental health industry is historically pretty frightening and I could totally see someone being committed to a psych ward for asexuality. This would be accompanied with countless notes about what the person felt and thought which would surely also raise some flags such as "not attracted to either gender." In the past (i.e., 75+ years ago), people who were committed to public psych facilities were not asked what they were thinking, and they wouldn't have been committed for something they weren't doing. Once in such a facility, they were likely to be given shock therapy and placed in cold baths to keep them calm. Even now, there's a lot of warehousing of mentally-ill people, and it's even less likely that there are personnel available to talk with patients; medications are used extensively. Asexuals are not "provable" by behavior like out homosexuals were, and it would be really difficult to access every diary of every famous person (let alone non-famous people) to track mentions of not wanting to have sex with other people. By trying to find history of asexuality, you're trying to find history of something that is invisible and not in any way provable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kellam Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 There was a BBC doc (or maybe PBS)on Liz the 1st's sexuality and gender that suggested that she may have been trans or intersexed. There is even a town in England that claims she died there as a child and was replaced secretly by a boy with similar features. They dress a local boy up as her every year. She probably was a virgin though. I think a savy political mind like hers would have used male flirtation to her own advantage even if she never planned on being with them. I forget the name of the doc though... 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
That asexual guy Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Reginald, on 14 Jun 2014 - 1:55 PM, said: Sally, on 14 Jun 2014 - 1:49 PM, said: Documented history of asexuals in the past (who are now dead)? Explain how that could be. People really like to speculate about famous historical figures' sex lives. They tend to look at personal journals and diaries and letters to friends and such. I don't expect anything to be like "Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand wrote in his diary 'I am asexual'" but considering the fact that most of us were able to express our sexual identity before knowing about asexuality I wouldn't be surprised to find someone write something about "I don't seem to experience attraction to either gender" or "I don't understand other people's fascination with sex." Also the mental health industry is historically pretty frightening and I could totally see someone being committed to a psych ward for asexuality. This would be accompanied with countless notes about what the person felt and thought which would surely also raise some flags such as "not attracted to either gender." In the past (i.e., 75+ years ago), people who were committed to public psych facilities were not asked what they were thinking, and they wouldn't have been committed for something they weren't doing. Once in such a facility, they were likely to be given shock therapy and placed in cold baths to keep them calm. Even now, there's a lot of warehousing of mentally-ill people, and it's even less likely that there are personnel available to talk with patients; medications are used extensively. Asexuals are not "provable" by behavior like out homosexuals were, and it would be really difficult to access every diary of every famous person (let alone non-famous people) to track mentions of not wanting to have sex with other people. By trying to find history of asexuality, you're trying to find history of something that is invisible and not in any way provable. In 1896, Magnus Hirschfeld wrote a pamphlet on sexuality, which mentions concepts akin to asexuality. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Member54880 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Elizabeth I did say she'd prefer to be single, and famously said "Better beggar woman and single than Queen and married", but there are many different possible reasons she wasn't enthusiastic towards marriage. She feared that a coup would happen if she named an heir, because that happened within her own family. None of her marriage prospects seemed very good, and if she married, she would've end up being a queen consort with no power of her own, instead of being the queen regnant she was. http://www.elizabethi.org/contents/marriage/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_I_of_England#Marriage_question 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sally Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 eddie the ace, on 14 Jun 2014 - 2:55 PM, said:In 1896, Magnus Hirschfeld wrote a pamphlet on sexuality, which mentions concepts akin to asexuality. He was indeed interested in homosexuality and non-majority genders. Can you give us a cite for the pamphlet in which he talks about asexuality concepts? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
That asexual guy Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 eddie the ace, on 14 Jun 2014 - 2:55 PM, said: In 1896, Magnus Hirschfeld wrote a pamphlet on sexuality, which mentions concepts akin to asexuality. He was indeed interested in homosexuality and non-majority genders. Can you give us a cite for the pamphlet in which he talks about asexuality concepts? You can read this thread http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/98639-indirect-mentions-of-asexuality-in-magnus-hirschfelds-books/ Or you can google Magnus Hirschfeld and asexual and find references. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Heart Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 There was a BBC doc (or maybe PBS)on Liz the 1st's sexuality and gender that suggested that she may have been trans or intersexed. There is even a town in England that claims she died there as a child and was replaced secretly by a boy with similar features. They dress a local boy up as her every year. She probably was a virgin though. I think a savy political mind like hers would have used male flirtation to her own advantage even if she never planned on being with them. I forget the name of the doc though... I'd actually be interested in watching that, if you happen to remember the name of it or any other information that would help track it down. It sounds like an interesting documentary :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ThomasinaAquinas Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Josephite Marriages. I'm sure there were many such marriages in ages past, since it was a socially acceptable form of expressing asexuality (where Catholicism was dominant). Also, I'm willing to bet many asexuals ended up in monastic life, since there was no pressure within it to have sex. All those scientists who were priests, basically married to their work, nuns who were focused on academics instead... :) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Copper Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 About Elizabeth I... As others have said, the Virgin Queen thing was about her marital status, not actual virginity. And I'm not sure if this is true, but I heard that she wasn't a virgin, but actually had a very active sex life. Anyone know? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sally Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Aqua-ace, on 14 Jun 2014 - 8:56 PM, said: Elizabeth I did say she'd prefer to be single, and famously said "Better beggar woman and single than Queen and married", but there are many different possible reasons she wasn't enthusiastic towards marriage. She feared that a coup would happen if she named an heir, because that happened within her own family. None of her marriage prospects seemed very good, and if she married, she would've end up being a queen consort with no power of her own, instead of being the queen regnant she was. http://www.elizabethi.org/contents/marriage/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_I_of_England#Marriage_question Her own mother was executed by her father King Henry VIII, and she was then declared a bastard; one of her subsequent stepmothers died, one was divorced by the king, and another was executed. She was imprisoned twice because of being suspected of being a traitor to Queen Mary, and she watched Mary being abandoned by her husband Philip of Spain because Mary wouldn't make him a king also. None of that encouraged her to marry. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sally Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Copper, on 01 Jul 2014 - 12:00 PM, said: About Elizabeth I... As others have said, the Virgin Queen thing was about her marital status, not actual virginity. And I'm not sure if this is true, but I heard that she wasn't a virgin, but actually had a very active sex life. Anyone know? She was possibly in love with Robert Dudley, who was a court "favorite" for years; his stepson succeeded Dudley after he died. A lot of popular historical novelists have assumed that she had affairs, but there's no proof. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bristol Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Depending on who you ask, Lord Baden-Powell, founder of scouting, could have been asexual. Others say he was a repressed homosexual or even a paedophile - but some of these claims have a ring of "well he definitely wasn't into women, so he must have been sexually attracted to something else".Jesus himself isn't portrayed as particularly sexual in the Bible, but I admit it's a long shot to say he could have been asexual. There might have been a whole lot of other reasons why he didn't marry.The Kinsey reports (1948 onwards) include a "category X" that is probably the first "scientific" data on asexuality. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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