Harmful Definition of "Demigirl" in the AVEN Master List

[aaaaaaaHH]

Hi there, my name is Roh, and I'm a demigirl

I admin for demigenders.tumblr.com, and recently got a question asking whether or not a dfab individual could identify as a demiboy. They told me they had read online that they could not. Naturally, I explained to them that their gender is not tied to their sex, and that they were more than welcome to use the term, as the details of one's genitalia are completely unrelated to one's gender. I then asked where they had read that it wasn't allowed, and was directed here. I quickly made myself a profile, and got to work on this post.

AVEN currently recognizes a demigirl as such:

"Demigirl: 1. someone assigned female at birth who feels but the barest association with that identification, though not a significant enough dissociation to create real physical discomfort or dysphoria; 2. someone assigned male at birth who is transfeminine but not wholly binary-identified, so that they feel more strongly associated with "female" than "male," socially or physically, but not strongly enough to justify an absolute self-identification as "woman.""

The first issue that needs to be addressed is the fact that this definition is needlessly complex. A demigirl can be simply defined as "someone who identifies partially, but not wholly, as female". The inverse can of course be used for demiboy as well. By defining it as someone who feels the "barest association", you are restricting the gender to a small demographic of people, and excluding those who feel dominantly, but not entirely female, half female, quarter female, and so on. It also restricts the identity to DFAB individuals, and perpetuates the negative stereotype that demigirls do not feel dysphoria or discomfort.

This entire definition is based off the views of incredibly harmful truscum, who describe most nonbinary people (including genderfluid people) as "special snowflakes", rather than recognizing them as valid identities who are neither male, female, or agender. Truscum recognize gender not as a spectrum, but as three easily defined points, which is a ridiculous and harmful idea. Cramming 7 billion people into three boxes can not, and will not, ever work.

The second definition is less harmful, but is still needlessly over complicated, and has a strangely binary-enforcing feel to it. As an identity it's so strongly based around the binary that it just seems a little off. Nevertheless, it again restricts to one sex, despite the fact that sex is unrelated to gender. It, once again, leaves out the demographic of DFAB individuals who feel strongly, but not completely identify as female.

Overall, the use of two separate definitions for two sexes is completely ridiculous, and perpetuates the idea that sex is linked to gender, which is simply not the case. The first definition perpetuates harmful ideas set in place by truscum as a way of trivializing demigender, and justifying their views, despite the fact that the majority of the demigender community completely rejects these definitions in favor of the simple, and accepting "someone who identifies partially, but not wholly, as female". This definition can be tweaked in a number of ways, but at it's core it refers to someone who, regardless of sex, identifies partially as female, which is exactly what a demigirl is.

So, in a tl;dr summary:

- AVEN currently uses a definition created by truscum to trivialize and downplay the existence of demigirls by implying that they do not suffer from dysphoria and discomfort
- This definition is sex-specific, despite the fact that sex is not related to gender, which is actually stated in the AVEN definition list
- The definition is needlessly complicated and leaves out large sections of people

Thank you for taking the time to read this,

- Roh

[Janus the Fox]

What the heck is a Truescum damn Tumblr speak don't real. :o

In a way, It's harmful creating a rather complex definition. Anyone who is anyone if they feel less associated with the binary should use however label that feels right regardless of sex, I did myself for a while before identifying agendered.

Demigender is not an exact science though, it just covers whats remaining here. If there's good documentation on it in science journals, sociology and any hard proof that's it's wrong, feel free to contact the Project Team for a change. :)

[Waist of Thyme]

What does DFAB stand for?

[Animatescapist]

DFAB stands for Designated Female At Birth! It's interchangeable with AFAB, which stands for Assigned Female At Birth. DMAB and AMAB are the same thing, but with male instead of female.

[aaaaaaaHH]

What the heck is a Truescum damn Tumblr speak don't real. :o

In a way, It's harmful creating a rather complex definition. Anyone who is anyone if they feel less associated with the binary should use however label that feels right regardless of sex, I did myself for a while before identifying agendered.

Demigender is not an exact science though, it just covers whats remaining here. If there's good documentation on it in science journals, sociology and any hard proof that's it's wrong, feel free to contact the Project Team for a change. :)

Truscum are a group that, while having some valid points, typically spend their time accusing nonbinary people of being "transtrenders" and generally being rude. They dismiss the idea that nonbinary gender exists, and for the most part, aggressively enforce gender binary, claiming that there are only three possible gender orientations, male, female, and agender.

Also, due to the slow pace of nonbinary acceptance, there's little scientific data on any nonbinary gender, and actually still fairly little on transgender at all. This is changing though, slowly. The basis behind demigender is that gender is spectrum (this is something that actually is well documented), and therefore, the terms demigirl/demiboy were created to fill a section of the spectrum, namely the large portions of the spectrum that aren't male, female, or agender.

[Sally]

It almost seems as though people were actually trying to make it more difficult for themselves -- or more likely, for others.

Can't you just ignore all this?

[AngelofArt]

Roh, by your definition would a masculine neutrois person like me count as a demiboy?

[aaaaaaaHH]

It almost seems as though people were actually trying to make it more difficult for themselves -- or more likely, for others.

Can't you just ignore all this?

I don't entirely understand what you mean? All I'm trying to do is get a harmful definition changed.

Roh, by your definition would a masculine neutrois person like me count as a demiboy?

I'd like to clarify that this isn't my definition, it's the collectively accepted definition used by the demigender community. This isn't just me.

Moving along, it's possible that you could ID as a demiboy, but I'd need a little more information to say for sure, specifically surrounding whether or not "masculine" is your gender presentation/expression, or if it's how you describe the male portion of your actual gender.

[Sally]

rohhhhh, on 09 Jun 2014 - 6:30 PM, said:

Sally, on 09 Jun 2014 - 6:16 PM, said:

It almost seems as though people were actually trying to make it more difficult for themselves -- or more likely, for others.

Can't you just ignore all this?

I don't entirely understand what you mean? All I'm trying to do is get a harmful definition changed.

AngelofArt, on 09 Jun 2014 - 6:17 PM, said:

Roh, by your definition would a masculine neutrois person like me count as a demiboy?

I'd like to clarify that this isn't my definition, it's the collectively accepted definition used by the demigender community. This isn't just me.

Moving along, it's possible that you could ID as a demiboy, but I'd need a little more information to say for sure, specifically surrounding whether or not "masculine" is your gender presentation/expression, or if it's how you describe the male portion of your actual gender.

"Collectively-accepted definition?" Ye gods, although AVEN's been on-line for 10 years, we can't even agree on a definition of asexuality.

As far as defining people, AVEN doesn't really support that, so you shouldn't be trying to define someone else.

[aaaaaaaHH]

"Collectively-accepted definition?" Ye gods, although AVEN's been on-line for 10 years, we can't even agree on a definition of asexuality.

As far as defining people, AVEN doesn't really support that, so you shouldn't be trying to define someone else.

I wasn't trying to actually define them, they were just asking if they would count, and I was stating that I'd need more clarification before I answered that. The identity they use is up to them entirely.

And when I say "collectively-accepted definition", I refer to the fact that it's the definition that almost every demigender individual I've met agrees upon. The only ones I've met who don't use this definition are ones who were misinformed, and have since started using the definition the rest of us use, because it's more inclusive and simple.

[AngelofArt]

I'd like to clarify that this isn't my definition, it's the collectively accepted definition used by the demigender community. This isn't just me.

Moving along, it's possible that you could ID as a demiboy, but I'd need a little more information to say for sure, specifically surrounding whether or not "masculine" is your gender presentation/expression, or if it's how you describe the male portion of your actual gender.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that you made up the definition. I just meant the definition you are telling us about, as oppose to AVEN's current definitions.

I would say it's how I describe the male portion of my actual gender. On a binary scale I feel much more male then female. But I feel like my real gender bounces around between male and neutrois.

[aaaaaaaHH]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that you made up the definition. I just meant the definition you are telling us about, as oppose to AVEN's current definitions.

I would say it's how I describe the male portion of my actual gender. On a binary scale I feel much more male then female. But I feel like my real gender bounces around between male and neutrois.

Oh, it's totally okay! I just wanted to clarify for others, to avoid people getting the wrong idea.

So you would describe yourself as being partially, but not entirely male? That sounds perfectly okay for the identity of demiboy, but of course, that's up to you. Whatever identity feels most comfortable with you.

A few things about demiboy and demigender as a whole:

- You don't need to specify what the "other" is (for myself, it's partial female, partial just like, androgyny I guess? or neutrois? it's hard to describe. I tend to describe it as such: "If gender is different kinds of juice, and female is apple juice, I'm apple juice with some water poured in.")

- The concentrations can be fluctuating or changing (I fluctuate between 50-50 and like, 70% female)

- The "other" can change

- The "other" can be more than one thing

[Fire & Rain]

Hi,

Thanks for bringing this up :)

I'm genderfluid and I'm currently agender. I identify as demigirl when I feel like I'm one. I actually compared the definition of demigirl from AVEN and from wikia page about gender identities when I was trying to understand more about demigirl. Even though I was born female, I identify with the definition you provided. It makes more sense to me.

I don't know how this process of putting up definitions works on here. I think people should be at least provided with both definitions. Maybe they can choose which definition feels right to them. I mean, if it were me, I want both options to be available. I don't understand how AVEN definition could be harmful though. I kinda see where you're coming from. The ideal situation would be researching on different sites before someone identifies themselves with a label but it's debatable which one is the "true" definition. Which brings this back to why I want both definitions available for people to choose.

[aaaaaaaHH]

Hi,

Thanks for bringing this up :)

I'm genderfluid and I'm currently agender. I identify as demigirl when I feel like I'm one. I actually compared the definition of demigirl from AVEN and from wikia page about gender identities when I was trying to understand more about demigirl. Even though I was born female, I identify with the definition you provided. It makes more sense to me.

I don't know how this process of putting up definitions works on here. I think people should be at least provided with both definitions. Maybe they can choose which definition feels right to them. I mean, if it were me, I want both options to be available. I don't understand how AVEN definition could be harmful though. I kinda see where you're coming from. The ideal situation would be researching on different sites before someone identifies themselves with a label but it's debatable which one is the "true" definition. Which brings this back to why I want both definitions available for people to choose.

That's valid! I just think it's grossly inappropriate to like a gender identity with a specific sex, and to a lesser extent it bothers me that this definition narrows the demigirl identity down to only people with the "barest association", rather than all people who feel partial association.

[AngelofArt]

Oh, it's totally okay! I just wanted to clarify for others, to avoid people getting the wrong idea.

So you would describe yourself as being partially, but not entirely male? That sounds perfectly okay for the identity of demiboy, but of course, that's up to you. Whatever identity feels most comfortable with you.

A few things about demiboy and demigender as a whole:

- You don't need to specify what the "other" is (for myself, it's partial female, partial just like, androgyny I guess? or neutrois? it's hard to describe. I tend to describe it as such: "If gender is different kinds of juice, and female is apple juice, I'm apple juice with some water poured in.")

- The concentrations can be fluctuating or changing (I fluctuate between 50-50 and like, 70% female)

- The "other" can change

- The "other" can be more than one thing

Thank you, for your help. I feel like I understand now.

[aaaaaaaHH]

Thank you, for your help. I feel like I understand now.

No problem! I answer questions like those literally every day on the demigender blog. Someone asking me if they fit as a demigirl was the whole reason I ended up making this post.

[eched]

Well when I read demigirl on here I just assumed that there were other orientations that weren't the barest association that kind of made up the middle ground. Like almostgirl, or girlwhenIfeellikeit, and of course, ultragirl!

Just zapping in some light hearted comedy into a rocky thread. ;)

[binary suns]

Clear definitions should exist, because there are people who need clear definitions in order to understand a concept.

Then, those definitions need to be non-exclusive, because there are people who rely on their gut and are discouraged by strict definitions. Additionally, these things we are defining are inherently abstract, non-discrete, and multidimensional, making it important that any definition allows for wiggle room.

We really could come up with infinite words to describe ourselves, and only then would we have a true system, yet the system would be unusable due to its sheer size.

So, as our primary goal is to support those who are searching, it is important that what limited definitions we do use are more so inclusive than exclusive. We want people to find a word they like, rather than see endless words that restrict applicability.

[aaaaaaaHH]

Clear definitions should exist, because there are people who need clear definitions in order to understand a concept.

Then, those definitions need to be non-exclusive, because there are people who rely on their gut and are discouraged by strict definitions. Additionally, these things we are defining are inherently abstract, non-discrete, and multidimensional, making it important that any definition allows for wiggle room.

We really could come up with infinite words to describe ourselves, and only then would we have a true system, yet the system would be unusable due to its sheer size.

So, as our primary goal is to support those who are searching, it is important that what limited definitions we do use are more so inclusive than exclusive. We want people to find a word they like, rather than see endless words that restrict applicability.

Exactly! This is a big part why I think that the AVEN definition of demigirl is problematic! It's full of restrictions and exclusions that are totally arbitrary and unnecessary. Demigirl should be described as "someone who is partially, but not entirely, female". It's a simple, inclusive definition, that can apply to anyone sitting between agender and female. It's one definition that can accurately describe many people, while still leaving room to be more specific if one chooses (for example, many demigender people like to specify what their "something else" is).

As always, the inverse applies for demiboy.

[Fire & Rain]

Oh and I want to clarify why I prefer the definition you provided. The reason why feeling "partially female" makes more sense to me than "barest association with female" is because how much I feel like a female is constantly changing. Sometimes I even feel like 80% female at the most. When I'm moving towards agender side, the percentage of feeling like a female goes down gradually until it becomes 0% like I feel right now. I also like that it includes "may or may not identify as another gender" since I can't always make out what is the other part I feel when I'm demigirl. I think it's more inclusive. Great definition in my opinion but others might disagree.

[aaaaaaaHH]

Oh and I want to clarify why I prefer the definition you provided. The reason why feeling "partially female" makes more sense to me than "barest association with female" is because how much I feel like a female is constantly changing. Sometimes I even feel like 80% female at the most. When I'm moving towards agender side, the percentage of feeling like a female goes down gradually until it becomes 0% like I feel right now. I also like that it includes "may or may not identify as another gender" since I can't always make out what is the other part I feel when I'm demigirl. I think it's more inclusive. Great definition in my opinion but others might disagree.

Exactly! It's meant to be inclusive! No two people are going to have exactly the same gender, so we can't really act like they're going to fit into really specific definitions.

[Kishira]

I personally like Rohhhhh's definition as well. When I was trying to figure out if I was a demigirl I did end up coming here. that definition here is difficult for me to understand. I also felt that because I do have times I feel more female sometimes as well as what it said regarding dysphoria made me feel insecure about it. I an confident that is is correct after going to other sites, most of which said something similar to what Rohhhhh said. Though I've considered describing it as a type of polygender which includes female and doesn't require other genders to be specified.

[aaaaaaaHH]

I personally like Rohhhhh's definition as well. When I was trying to figure out if I was a demigirl I did end up coming here. that definition here is difficult for me to understand. I also felt that because I do have times I feel more female sometimes as well as what it said regarding dysphoria made me feel insecure about it. I an confident that is is correct after going to other sites, most of which said something similar to what Rohhhhh said. Though I've considered describing it as a type of polygender which includes female and doesn't require other genders to be specified.

On my demigender blog, and in most of the community from what I can gather, we fully recognize that demigender often overlaps with polygender, it's just a matter of semantics really. I mean by definition, all demigirls are polygender, in the same way that all bigender people are polygender (and a lot of demigender people are bigender as well), it's just a matter of choosing an identity that you feel best represents you. For example, people who want to highlight the female portion of their gender may want to opt for demigirl rather than polygender, even though they qualify as both.

[WhenSummersGone]

I identify as Demigirl and I see what you mean. I do feel weird at times with my body depending on my mood. I understood the definition when I read it but I can see those problems.

[AshenPhoenix]

Truscum are a group that, while having some valid points, typically spend their time accusing nonbinary people of being "transtrenders" and generally being rude. They dismiss the idea that nonbinary gender exists, and for the most part, aggressively enforce gender binary, claiming that there are only three possible gender orientations, male, female, and agender.

I would also like to point out to everyone in the thread, that while I doubt it was the meaning meant here of course, truscum can also be a derogatory term for transgender people who have transitioned in some cases. Just pointing out the second definition.

[aaaaaaaHH]

I would also like to point out to everyone in the thread, that while I doubt it was the meaning meant here of course, truscum can also be a derogatory term for transgender people who have transitioned in some cases. Just pointing out the second definition.

I apologize, I've never heard this definition? The closest thing I know to this is that the term truscum refers to the fact that truscum see themselves as "true trans", and consider a lot of nonbinary people "fake transtrenders". In that sense, it could be a derog. towards transitioned trans people, but I think the term is less about the trans part, and more about the fact that they consider themselves more "true trans" than others.

[AshenPhoenix]

I would also like to point out to everyone in the thread, that while I doubt it was the meaning meant here of course, truscum can also be a derogatory term for transgender people who have transitioned in some cases. Just pointing out the second definition.

I apologize, I've never heard this definition? The closest thing I know to this is that the term truscum refers to the fact that truscum see themselves as "true trans", and consider a lot of nonbinary people "fake transtrenders". In that sense, it could be a derog. towards transitioned trans people, but I think the term is less about the trans part, and more about the fact that they consider themselves more "true trans" than others.

Well, I asked some other people what the term possibly was, and they said that was the definition they've heard on tumblr. I'm not saying anything, it's more since so many people in the thread didn't know what it was, I figured it was better to say something about the fact that some consider it offensive, apparently it can also mean that someone who has transitioned is just a traitor to their own gender because they just want to be cis.

[binary suns]

tmi

I've never seen or heard that term before but I'm sorry I hope no one gets called that, if it doesn't look like it's pronounced "True Scum" it looks like it's pronounced "Just Cum"

[aaaaaaaHH]

I would also like to point out to everyone in the thread, that while I doubt it was the meaning meant here of course, truscum can also be a derogatory term for transgender people who have transitioned in some cases. Just pointing out the second definition.

I apologize, I've never heard this definition? The closest thing I know to this is that the term truscum refers to the fact that truscum see themselves as "true trans", and consider a lot of nonbinary people "fake transtrenders". In that sense, it could be a derog. towards transitioned trans people, but I think the term is less about the trans part, and more about the fact that they consider themselves more "true trans" than others.

Well, I asked some other people what the term possibly was, and they said that was the definition they've heard on tumblr. I'm not saying anything, it's more since so many people in the thread didn't know what it was, I figured it was better to say something about the fact that some consider it offensive, apparently it can also mean that someone who has transitioned is just a traitor to their own gender because they just want to be cis.

Hmm, my experience (on tumblr in particular) with the term "truscum" has literally just been with people who refer to themselves as truscum telling me that my gender isn't valid because it's not binary. And telling my genderfluid friends they're not valid. And my bigender friends. And my enby friends. Linking to the truscum tag on tumblr for context: http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/truscum .

The whole tag is just either:

A) Nonbinary people who are upset because truscum were harassing them

B) Self-Identified truscum bashing nonbinary gender

Anyways, I'll look into those other definitions once I get a sec, but I've never heard them, nor have I ever heard it used outside of the context of people who self identify with it.

[ADP]

Something that I've wondered about the demigirl label is why it is "demigirl" rather than "demiwoman" or "demifemale." Isn't that limiting for people as they become older? I find it hard to imagine a 40-year-old person wanting to identify with a label that contains the root word "girl," but I haven't seen people graduating to a more adult form of the label, though I recognize that some people continue to identify as "girls" into young adulthood.