Lewis Carroll

[Mycolicious]

I got Alice Annotated for my birthday, and I was reading the lengthy introduction, which led me to believe that Carroll was indeed asexual. He had lots of friends who were children, and by all accounts seemed madly in love with one in particular, Alice Liddel, who "Alice in Wonderland" was based on. However, there isn't the slightest smattering of evidence that he liked her or the other little girls he hung around in a romantic or psysical way. He was a revrend, but still the issue of sex never even came up. In fact, it may vere well be that he preferred the company of little girls because he felt sexually secure around them.

'Cus he's cool like that.

[Violist]

Yeah, I think it's quite possible that Lewis Carroll/Charles Dodgson was asexual, the same with J. M. Barrie. There were/are similar rumors about both of them with children, and many people believe that Barrie was asexual. Not that that's enough evidence to say that Carroll was asexual, but it's an idea.

And I agree. He IS really cool like that. :) *HUGE Alice fan*

[Frigid Pink]

I am also an Alice fan. I think that would be really cool if Lewis Carroll was asexual. I LOVE children---still feel like one. I know someone posted once before about an asexual site with unicorns, etc. and how that's not what asexuas are like. But I, personally, feel I am still just a child in so many ways. And children are asexual.

[Silly Green Monkey]

Ever played the Alice in Wonderland computer game? Where she's in an insane asylum because her family was killed in a fire and only she survived?

[nonentities]

Ever played the Alice in Wonderland computer game? Where she's in an insane asylum because her family was killed in a fire and only she survived?

That game is amazing, as is the soundtrack. American McGee's Alice, to be specific.

And I love the books---I've got the Annotated Alice on my shelf, too. :)

[Vagina Dentata]

Those are some of my favourite books. And to think, in his time, Carroll was considered a pedophile for taking photographs of children with their ankles showing. XD

American McGee's Alice scared the crap outta me. I had to stop playing it because it kept giving me horrible nightmares.

[littlelisa]

I *love* Lewis Carroll's writing. That would be unbelievably cool if he were asexual.

[winter]

And to think, in his time, Carroll was considered a pedophile for taking photographs of children with their ankles showing. XD

actually, carroll took more revealing photos than that, which even today might have him considered a pedophile. i know they're on display now, i want to say it's at the icp, but i don't know if that's the right museum.

[Hypatia7]

I know about Carrols not so innocent pictures too (I actually had to study them for an examn on the history of photography).

I have seen a few of them in a book once and I can understand why someone would think he was a pedophile. But this could be said about him only by someone that has never read his books and who thinks about the XIX century people as informed as we are about pedophiles, which, considering the puritan view of the time, is quite unlikely.

[Mycolicious]

As far as I know, they were artistically nude pictures of children, which is still rather common in some countries. He gave all the pictures back to the parents or burned them when he was getting old, so the pictures wouldn't "embarass the girls later in life."

[zyralm]

.

[Iosis]

I've heard from a friend that the real-life Alice committed suicide after growing up.

Or is it just a myth?

[jakendy]

Yup..both him and JM Barrie are listedon wikipedia.com if you type the word asexual..or long-life virgins ..so is Hans Andersen , Slavador Dali etc.

http://www.asexuality.org/discussion/viewtopic.php?

[Barcode]

Some academics maintain that Carroll's Jabberwocky is intellectual masturbation. You decide...

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves

Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:

All mimsy were the borogoves,

And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!

The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!

Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun

The frumious Bandersnatch!"

He took his vorpal sword in hand:

Long time the manxome foe he sought --

So rested he by the Tumtum tree,

And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in uffish thought he stood,

The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,

Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,

And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through

The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!

He left it dead, and with its head

He went galumphing back.

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?

Come to my arms, my beamish boy!

O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'

He chortled in his joy.

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves

Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;

All mimsy were the borogoves,

And the mome raths outgrabe.

[vikingo]

Jabberwocky

"Et slidigt gravben vridrede

i brumringen på tidvis plent,

og lappingen var vaklig, og

det borte grøfgrin gren.

"Min søn, pas godt på Jabberwock!

han river og hans tand er hvas.

Pas på den onde jubjub-fugl

og gribbekloens krads."

Han søgte længe fjendens spor

med sværd i hånd og meget mod

og rasted siden tankefuld

ved tumtumtræets fod.

Men mens han grod og stublede,

jog gennem skoven glammende

den frygtelige Jabberwock

med øjet flammende.

Da svang han sværdet en, to, tre!

og ho'det røg af troldens krop,

og med det døde monstrum gik

det hjemad i galop.

"Oh, har du fældet Jabberwock!

Vær priset, søn, for dåd og dyd.

Hurra for denne glædesdag!"

Han vrinsked højt af fryd.

Et slidigt gravben vridrede

i brumringen på tidvis plent,

og lappingen var vaklig, og

det borte grøfgrin gren."

By Lewis Carroll. Danish translation by Mogens Jermiin Nissen

8)

[Violist]

What's intellectual masturbation?

[erszebet]

Examining the Looking-Glass Life of Lewis Carroll
The Man Who Loved Little Girls:

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/vol1...s.lcarroll.html 2015 Edit: New link

[slatterly]

What's intellectual masturbation?

*late* I would imagine it means something done for sheer intellectual pleasure. So in context with Jabberwockey, it would mean that he just wrote it because he felt like making up crazy words, not because it contributed to the plot.

Of course, determining whether something contributes to the plot is tricky business in something like Alice...

- Alan

[!]

i <3333 alice in wonderland

The cheshire cat would have to be my favorite :P

[Brodertun]

Carrol also had a penchant for photographing his young female friends in the nude (with their parents present) and cutting them out of his life once they reached a certain age.

[Nightmare]

A lot of kids pretty much become idiots at some point in their teens, and may or may not recover. It happened to a former friend of mine, and disturbed me for quite a time afterward.

[hydrae]

I am a huge fan of Carroll's (and not just Alice in Wonderland. I've read just about all of his work.)

I do not believe he was a pedophille. I can completely understand prefering to be around children as opposed to the company of adults or young adults. Children are so innocent! But once they reach a certain age they loose this innocence and undivided interest in the world. Their focus in life changes.

So yes, I believe he (as well as J.M. Barrie) was asexual.

[hydrae]

A lot of kids pretty much become idiots at some point in their teens, and may or may not recover. It happened to a former friend of mine, and disturbed me for quite a time afterward.

Much agreed!

[Rainbow Amoeba]

I have a question... Please don't be offended by what I say, it's just something that I don't understand, I'm not trying to attack anyone here.

My question is the following: how can we say that someone was asexual, when he/she lived at a time when "asexual" was not used in the same meaning that we use here? Don't we always say that it is up to each person to decide if he/she is asexual?

I do agree that it would be nice to have some famous examples of asexual people to give, because it would show other people that asexuality does exist and isn't just a trend or a phase or whatever. If such people can be found that clearly, in their letters or diary or something, expressed ideas that are similar to the modern concept of asexuality, but only lack the word "asexual" to describe it, then I suppose that person could be called asexual, because if he/she lived today, he/she would probably call herself/himself so.

But maybe some people that would indeed fit with the description of asexuality would not have chosen to describe themselves as such, so do we have the right to decide to call them asexual? For instance, married men who sometimes have sex with other men may not want to be described as "bisexual" or "homosexual" but identify as heterosexual because, in their mind, their occasionnal sleeping with other men isn't relevant to their orientation. Would you insist on calling them bisexual anyway?

In the same order of things (I think), my mother described her lack of interest in sex and lack of sexual attraction to anyone until she met my father, while all her female classmates had been having sex regularly since they were 14 or so. She does not consider she was asexual for this period of time, but she agrees to let me define myself as asexual although she is certain that my situation is the same as hers, and that in a few months or years I'll meet someone special and become sexual. In her opinion, the situation is the same, but she describes herself at that age as sexual while I identify as asexual, and we both agree that it is up to each of us to decide how she wants to identify.

Please don't think I criticize you for doing research and trying to find famous asexual people or characters in stories (same thing there: if the writer did not think of his/her character as asexual, can we describe the character as such?). I would be delighted if there were famous examples of asexual people, real or fictious. I would probably try to find some myself if I knew where to start and if I had time for it. I'm just wondering about the validity of claming that someone is or was asexual when we have no proof that he/she would identify as such.

I agree, though, that discussing it is interesting, especially as it provides another possible interpretation of their behavior than celibacy, homosexuality or pedophily, and anyway there is nothing wrong in discussing a possibility, I am only embarrassed when it comes to affirming someone's indentity in his/her place.

(By the way, I find it equally problematic when people nowadays affirm that Barrie or Carroll were pedophiles simply because they seemed to enjoy the company of children more than the company of adults, or that such person was in a homosexual relationship with this one simply from reading very affectionate letters from one to the other or something. I don't think we can decide what they would have called what they felt or thought about themselves. )

In a word: I do agree with the discussion that takes place here about the possible orientation of some people, but I wish it was clearer in some places like Wikipedia that it is simply possible that these people or characters could be described as asexual, but it is impossible to say more as we would need their own opinion or their creator's on the subject.

[hydrae]

I agree, Tortuecd, that one cannot truly label someone else (especially someone who is no longer alive) as asexual, homosexual, bisexual, etc. But, one can still believe that the person being discussed may possibly fall under one of these catagories. It is simply speculation and should not be taken for fact, because none of us really know the person in question, Mr. Carrol (or J.M. Barrie, who was mentioned.) So no, none of us have the right to truly label anyone. I suppose the proper way of stating things would be "There is a possibility that Lewis Carroll could today be considered an asexual." instead of saying simply "Lewis Carroll

was an asexual."

You have made a very valid point! :)

[futurama91]

Lewis Carroll had the same type of epilepsy that I do, temporal lobe epilepsy. Coicidence? Hmm.

So did Vincent van Gogh. In fact, he said that when his seizures were controlled he was less inspired.

They had complex partial seizures, which can really distort reality. I think that inspired a lot of the trippy stuff in Alice in Wonderland.

[futurama91]

Also, I don't think that Van Gogh ever had a meaningful relationship with a woman. Instead he had an emotional, but not sexual, relationship with another male artist. When he felt rejected by that guy he cut his ear off. He felt no pain, though, because he did it during a complex partial seizure. I'm sure he felt it after, though.

[infinitebeauty]

MmmmLewis Carroll. His writing is everything that is good in the world.

Jabberwocky strikes me as possibly the greatest intellectual masturbation one can engage in.

All the people who acuse Lewis Carroll of being a pedophile are only working with a little bit of information though. He (according to what I have read) had a good deal of relationships with the older ladies, but his family tried to suppress that information after his death so that nobody would think he was having affairs. They also took pages of his journals, as well as a full journal, so nobody will ever really know his life in full.

But yes, there is definitely the possibility that he (and/or JM Barrie) could be asexual. If they both were, I'd be the happiest thing in the world. :D

[knoxroxmysox]

Alice in Wonderland/Through the Looking Glass are reeeeeeally trippy books. And yet, very interesting. For example, I now know what an acid trip feels like.

Not to bash the book or anything. I really enjoyed it. It makes you look at things like flamingos and Humpty Dumpty and decks of cards in totally different ways. Like they're all part of some some strange and elaborate inside joke.

Once, our biology teacher referenced something Alice said in a critical-thinking question about molecule structure (Yes, I can feel your confusion). Alice was wondering if looking-glass milk was safe to drink. Our answer was no, since it would have, instead of lactose, a less-tasty enantiomer of lactose (get it? because everything's mirrored), which made it very, very not safe to drink..........

.............

.............

.............

............. Well, we all thought it was funny. Yay hardcore biology humor!

[The Crazy Cat Lady]

I know. Some say he's a pedophile, but he's not! He just likes to be around little girls, because well, they're all cheerful and happy. It paints a smile on his lips probably.