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The Evil Cashew

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The Evil Cashew

OK... uhm... just a question... WHO IS on the project team? i mean really who is active?

i know hallu and trip are. and i am sure Dj pops in.. and i know cacille is around and i think i last read she was just gonna be busy for a bit...

so who else? Wasn't there supposed to be 10 poeple or something?

EVERY time i see polls. its just 2 poeple voting and stuff. i think the pt has some issues that need to be fixed. Its a fantastic group that is doing good things. but its falling apart. Before it starts any new projects i think it needs to gather istelf up a bit.

i also think trip your being overly paranoid if you would think the admods would undermine the pt. Its pretty bad if the admods and pt cant trust each pther when the two should be working together

~Cashew

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i also think trip your being overly paranoid if you would think the admods would undermine the pt.

The pt would be failing to their jobs if all possibilities werne't examined cash. And as I said in the PT forum, its not just the possibility of intentional interfering, there is also the possibility of unintentional. And we do know that nonpt memebs with access to the forum have posted in there. It would be foolish to completely ignore such happenings. Though this is an issue that's already been resolved.

As for who is on the pt, I know we have:

Trip

Hallu

Dj

SpirallySnowy

Neurovore

Cacille

Hu

And two collaborators who work extensively on pt projects, even more so than some pt membes have: Stupendous Sam and Ajay.

I'm up in the air as to whether or not islander is on the team - when the team doesn't repond to who is on the team messages, its hard to keep track

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The Evil Cashew

Trip,

thanks for listing who is on the pt. cuz really. its not clear at all.

The pt would be failing to their jobs if all possibilities werne't examined cash. And as I said in the PT forum, its not just the possibility of intentional interfering, there is also the possibility of unintentional. And we do know that nonpt memebs with access to the forum have posted in there. It would be foolish to completely ignore such happenings. Though this is an issue that's already been resolved.

how can the pt be failing when it seems liek no one is around to do anything? the pt started out really organized. but when there was a lack of intrest in membership it seems to have fallen a part. yes a few of you have carried on and done alot of stuff. i applaud you and hallu for what you have done. but the pt, even to me who isnt ap art of it, does not seem liek what its supposed to be. it seems unorganized ( i mean even you cant name who are all the members) elections are put aside... youh ave a poll with.. hmm 2 votes in it. i am saying that you need to regroup before continueing. make changes to meet the demands of the board and to work with WHO u have.

and maybe the issue was resovled but it wasn't resovled in any pubilc means where non members of admods or admins could voice an opinion.

Yes the two teams have seperate responsibilities but they are both a part of aven and they need to be a team and work together. for that oyu need trust. you jsut showd us a lack thereof. SO if you cant trust the admods... why shoudl we trust pt. and as a non member of eitehr. well that just makes me real confident on who is running the site and promting Aseexuality.

~Cashew

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Yes the two teams have seperate responsibilities but they are both a part of aven and they need to be a team and work together. for that oyu need trust. you jsut showd us a lack thereof

A lack therof would be saying they were doing it intentionally.

Tell me do you take the time to look at what forum you are posting in? - I usually don't notice when I'm replying. And as I said there is already evidence that one non-pt admin was taking part in the PT forum. If we completely ignored the fact that that had happened, how could teh members be having trust that it was pt who were discussing and voting, as opposed to nonpt? How could general avenites have trust in the PT to take responsible actions if they completly ignored the fact that not only was their a possibility of non pt participating in the pt forum, there is proof that its happened at least once?

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The Evil Cashew

yes i do. and if i start my reply and forget what i am posting in. i hit back to go check.

and i said YOU showed a lack of trust. that does not mean taht anyone did anything intentionally. i cant read their minds. who knows if they did or didnt. Hell if they DID mess with the polls and i found out i would rip the person a new one. the PT and the Admods need to trust each other. and if the admins abuse their powers then i hope they get found out and kicked out. its only fair.

all i mean to say is that it seemed that you came out and accused the admods of doing such a thing. and by demanding a vow, your showing that you dont trust them. and the two teams need that trust

~Cashew

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and maybe the issue was resovled but it wasn't resovled in any pubilc means where non members of admods or admins could voice an opinion.

it was posted in teh pt forum where any member of AVEN could see, and respond to it on AVEN as you have done so. That's the entire point of the pt forum being visible.

Also, mods don't have the option of posting in the forum (that was also posted in the pt), just the Admins. And as it was stated, should anyone so desire, all of the admins are willing to make a public statment promising to either never participate in the PT forum, or to never again participate there, sans being asked to do things such as add poll options.

all i mean to say is that it seemed that you came out and accused the admods of doing such a thing. and by demanding a vow, your showing that you dont trust them. and the two teams need that trust

By posting in the pt forum, without being a pt member, one of the admins shown that we can't just trust someone won't participate in the pt forum just because they aren't supposed to. I don't ignore obvious problems. I'm sorry if you feel that I should, but in order for the pt to function in the first place, known problems shouldn't just be ignored. And things that anyone can see have happened such as admins participating in the pt forum, especially shouldn't be treated with an attitude that says such things never happen.

I regularly receive pms from members asking to post in the pt forum. What message is it saying to them, when I say, "sorry you can't. that forum is for pt members only" but its alright if XYZ posts here, because he has admin access. Even though the pt forum was specifically meant to be keep separate from the admins/mods, and general members.

*I demand the president of the United states, all my elected representatives, and the president of my university take vows to uphold the honor and duties bestowed upon them. INdeed I wouldn't attend a univeristy or live in area where such oaths weren't taken. But that in no way means i'm distrustful of my mayor and i doubt you'd find anyone who says it is an indication that I am mds and admins are no different from the mayor charged with enforcing and setting laws. ITs just their town is an online forum

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I never use the replies in the last 24 hours or since last visit button. I go from forum to forum...

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Yes I do agree we aren't very organized. and unfortunately a large part of that is due to the fact that we are all uber busy.

That's not to say we can't be organized better. We came together quite nicely for the the first pamphlet discussion but technical difficulties prevented us from finishing the matter.

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To the best of my knowledge, no one who is in no way affiliated with the Project Team has ever posted in that forum. Rather famously, I posted there, at one time, in a desperate attempt to get action on an issue which was affecting the entire board. I chose to post in there because my position as the co-author of one of the Project Team's major projects makes me a tertiary member of the team, albiet not an elected one. Remember, too, that the admod team has explicit instructions to administer every forum on the board, and the PT forum is specifically included in that charter. The admod team is neither more nor less important than the project team -- in theory, our positions and, if you will, our authority is equal, though the focus of our duties is somewhat different. Insofar as I am required to look after the interests of the board, I used my discretion to do what I felt had to be done to ensure that the board continued to run smoothly. At the same time, I was very forthright and open about my so-called intrusion into the PT forum and I disclosed every action that I took there.

To be honest, I did what I did because I felt I had no other choice: it is quite difficult for the average AVENite to be heard in the PT Forum -- or, at least, the general feeling on the board, as it has been shared with me, is that it is difficult to be heard. It isn't just the fact that they are unable to post in a forum which in actuality decides issues which affects them, there is also the general confusion about the identities of the members of the Project Team. Who is active, who isn't? It is very difficult to tell, and your post implies that you aren't even completely certain, yourself. This, to my mind, implies a very serious problem, one I am at a loss to correct. Certainly, the issue could be alleviated by Project Team elections; according to the original proposal for the project team, elections were to happen every six months. By my reconing, we are at least six months beyond the date by which we were to have more elections.

It is good and well to have polls in the PT Forum about how you should go about having elections -- but remember, the ultimate decision lies with the entire board, not just with the members of the PT. You are elected by them and are, therefore, responsible to them. In the end, should it not be them who decides how they want to handle the elections for and eventual fate of their team?

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The Evil Cashew

arg ok.

look

it was posted in teh pt forum where any member of AVEN could see, and respond to it on AVEN as you have done so. That's the entire point of the pt forum being visible.

YES I KNOW! tahts why i am posting this NOW!! YES it was resovled but i am still voiving my opinion! because there was no OTHER opinions voiced by non members at this time.

Also, mods don't have the option of posting in the forum (that was also posted in the pt), just the Admins. And as it was stated, should anyone so desire, all of the admins are willing to make a public statment promising to either never participate in the PT forum, or to never again participate there, sans being asked to do things such as add poll options.

Do you forget that i was admin of this site for 6 months? i know what can and cannot be done. so please dont tell me.

and i am disagreeing with teh vow. i think its stupid and shows a lack of trust

By posting in the pt forum, without being a pt member, one of the admins shown that we can't just trust someone won't participate in the pt forum just because they aren't supposed to. I don't ignore obvious problems. I'm sorry if you feel that I should, but in order for the pt to function in the first place, known problems shouldn't just be ignored. And things that anyone can see have happened such as admins participating in the pt forum, especially shouldn't be treated with an attitude that says such things never happen.

When did you get perfect? really.. can you tell me? it happened ONCE that one person posted in there. maybe they forgot. maybe it was an accident. has it been done since? no. so.. therefore.. is it a HUGE OMG WE HAVE TO FIX IT NOW!!!! problem? no. I am NOT asking you to ignore faults with the board. cuz hell i could name a good list.. and at the top all the damn program bugs. please stop reading more out of what i am saying than i am saying. I am not trying to hide anything in my words.

I regularly receive pms from members asking to post in the pt forum. What message is it saying to them, when I say, "sorry you can't. that forum is for pt members only" but its alright if XYZ posts here, because he has admin access. Even though the pt forum was specifically meant to be keep separate from the admins/mods, and general members.

congrats. your someone who is deemed to have power. wanna know how many poeple ask me to fix things? hello.. is my name orange? or green even? no.. actually i am invisible. so.. why am i always contacting poeple and relaying msgs? I havent figured it out yet.

again, no matter what your ALWAYS going to have those questions because new members always come and dontknow that the pt forum is restricted. its just liek most of them wont know about the secret forums either.. lets see there is the mod forum.. and the book forum.. and the one that exists for poeple who have issues they want to discuss but not on the entire board.

all you have to tell poeple is that that was an accident and the person was not supposd to reply ther. and then direct them to posting their commentsin Vis and education.

~Cashew

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Okay, I have very little place to step in here, other than the fact that I want to be helping AVEN and I think this is getting a bit ugly, when it started out so well-intentioned.

Cashew, you originally posted that you want to see the PT as being an active group of people who regularly post in the PT and make decisions based on 10 active votes instead of two, am I right? If that's what you wanna see happen, I am in full agreement. Something should be done--the PT is a valuable resource, if we get it operating.

However, I have to take a stand with Trip here on keeping the Admod team and the PT separate. It's not really a trust issue, since everything discussed in the PT is visible to everyone. It just separates powers, like, and excuse the analogy, how in the US governmental system, the Congress does not sit in on the Supreme Court and vote, even if they have a say in the laws that the Supreme Court must adhere to.

In keeping the Admod team and the PT separate, it keeps the views of elected officials, working on behalf of the AVEN general public, separate from the appointed officials' views, which may or may not be different.

On a more gun-ho-let's-get-organized note...

I am not a PT member. In fact, I have done very little for AVEN, project wise. I sent one PM to Hallu about the AVEN Digest, which turned into a poll in Census, in which my name was mentioned, and now I'm considered an "affiliate". I'm not. I'd like to be, though. I'd like to get involved, but with the PT being dead as it is, I'm not sure how to broach that subject. So, I'm going to just say it straight.

What can we do to make some form of revitalization happen? Do we need DJ's approval to start up elections? Does it need planning? Time? What needs to be done?

I apologize if I stepped on toes here--I just think this thread started off well to try and get some actions taken. So let's stick with that.

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Cash, thanks for starting this thread.

I second everything Cash said.

me too, including what's been said since. Thanks for being honest, Cash.

EVERY time i see polls. its just 2 poeple voting and stuff. i think the pt has some issues that need to be fixed. Its a fantastic group that is doing good things. but its falling apart. Before it starts any new projects i think it needs to gather istelf up a bit.

I think the PT's dropout rate kind of speaks for itself. . .and those were all good people, I might add.

Something's rotten in the state of PTgonia, my friends.

And two collaborators who work extensively on pt projects, even more so than some pt membes have: Cole and Ajay.

I'm up in the air as to whether or not islander is on the team - when the team doesn't repond to who is on the team messages, its hard to keep track

For the record I think Sam would also be on the list of collaborators, considering how much she seems to have been involved with AVENues.

If some PT members aren't consistently around, and some non-PT members are really active in projects, why does the PT need to be an exclusive group at all? Why not open up the PT forum to anyone with an idea and/or time and skills to offer? Like a more focused, action-oriented VEO. And that way we'd be able to match skills to projects better, and get things done faster, and not have to put so much weight on any one volunteer. No need to burn our best people out when we've got plenty of people willing to lend a hand.

dear gods please don't flay me.

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Okay post edited: Cole's name is replaced with Sam's

Sorry Cole, I misunderstood when i was told of your involvement on an issue. and sorry Sam.

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YES I KNOW! tahts why i am posting this NOW!! YES it was resovled but i am still voiving my opinion! because there was no OTHER opinions voiced by non members at this time.

then why complain that members are not being given the chance to voice their opinion on the matter?

Do you forget that i was admin of this site for 6 months? i know what can and cannot be done. so please dont tell me.

If you know admods can not post in the pt why did you say it wasn't posted anywhere nonADMODS or nonAdmins could respond to it?

it happened ONCE that one person posted in there. maybe they forgot. maybe it was an accident.

Exactly the reason why it needed to be brought up. It happened. End of story, as it happened it cannot be treat as something that will never happen. that in itself is enough to make it important to discuss. And it is certainly better to discuss omething before it becomes a major problm,rather than waiting until afterward., regardless of whether or not one would expect it to evolve into a significant problem.

all you have to tell poeple is that that was an accident and the person was not supposd to reply ther. and then direct them to posting their commentsin Vis and education.

And then when they ask what happened as a result of that person posting there, and what steps were taken to ensure it wouldn't happen again what should I say, "Nothing was done. We don't care."

and i am disagreeing with teh vow. i think its stupid and shows a lack of trust

I take it you have a lack of trust in your Prime Minister then. After all he/she takes a similar vow when sworn into office. Or do you instead find him promising to uphold the honor bestowed upon herself to be stupid?

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Okay post edited: Cole's name is replaced with Sam's

Sorry Cole, I misunderstood when i was told of your involvement on an issue. and sorry Sam.

No apology necessary, Trip. It's no biggy. I'm helping behind the scenes with anything I can, so the confusion is not in any way your fault.

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And then when they ask what happened as a result of that person posting there, and what steps were taken to ensure it shouldn't happen again what should I say, "Nothing was done. We don't care."

Eh? Once again, I do have the power, and the right, as a person who works on the PT to post in that forum. End of story. Drop it.

The only reason why I do not post there, in general, is that I do not feel that I, as a person who was not elected to that team, should not, unless there is a pressing need for me to do so. In the situation in question, there was a pressing need for me to post there and so, I used my authority as a person working on an active project on the project team to post concerns -- concerns which were not only my own, but shared by other members of the board, as well.

What we have here is a question of accountability. Of course, I am accountable for my actions. What was done to me about my intrusion? Nothing, as I did not intrude -- the choice to distance myself from the PT in favor of a different set of responsibilities was my own. I shouldn't have to remind you that the book project preceeds the creation of the project team by a year and a half, or more. I understood and accepted that there should be some separation between the admod team and the project team, and I chose to keep most of my responsibilities with the admod team. However, what cannot be denied is that I do work -- in a major capacity -- on one of the projects of the project team. A separation between the two teams is understandable, given the original concept of the PT. However, should both teams be completely divorced? I am not the only admod who straddles the fence; Spiralling Snowy is also a member, in fact (insofar as she has been elected to both positions) of both teams. Therefore, there is not a complete separation between the two teams, and furthermore there shouldn't be. Communication should be free-flowing between the two teams -- and between the project team and the general AVEN membership. From what I am seeing in this thread, it may not be that this forum is enough for the members of AVEN to feel as if they have a voice in what is, after all, a team created to look after their interests.

Now. How about your accountability? We have people in this thread suggesting that the project team is not meeting thier expectations -- that elections are not happening on the schedule they were led to believe would be used, and that the team seems disjointed and unresponsive. It is because of this lack of response that I posted in the Project Team Forum in the first place! Intrusion or not (and valid arguments could be made on both sides of that idea, I suppose) it was necessary. And change was effected, to the benefit of the entire board.

To be clear, elections can happen at any time. It requires that the admod team be informed that an election is going to take place, so that we can make the Elections Forum visible to the general membership (admins can see it at all times). What is needed, I suppose, is a definate election schedule, in keeping with the original proposal for the team, and a plan by which the concerns of AVEN's members can be addressed in a manner in which they feel is adequate -- whether or not the team feels it is adequate is immaterial, as any admod could tell you. The admod team has been through this before. And we are attempting to take steps to make our team more transparent and elgalitarian, to better address the needs of the people whom we serve. A group, equal in authority to the admods, could expect to do no less. That is what should be voted on, here -- not whether or how votes should happen, but when and in what capacity.

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and i am disagreeing with teh vow. i think its stupid and shows a lack of trust

I take it you have a lack of trust in your Prime Minister then. After all he/she takes a similar vow when sworn into office. Or do you instead find him promising to uphold the honor bestowed upon herself to be stupid?

Really now. Stop and think. Do you realize how ludicrous a comparison this is?

Besides which, you have it backwards. She's saying that requiring such a vow implies a lack of trust. People should already have trust in those they've elected, non?

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and i am disagreeing with teh vow. i think its stupid and shows a lack of trust

I take it you have a lack of trust in your Prime Minister then. After all he/she takes a similar vow when sworn into office. Or do you instead find him promising to uphold the honor bestowed upon herself to be stupid?

Really now. Stop and think. Do you realize how ludicrous a comparison this is?

Besides which, you have it backwards. She's saying that requiring such a vow implies a lack of trust. People should already have trust in those they've elected, non?

Why do we require prime ministers, mayors and the like to take such vows?

As I said above there isn't much difference between a mayor of a real community, and a admin of an online one. You'd be hardpressed to find people who deem it acceptable for the mayor to not take an oath vowing to upheld the duties and responsibilities bestowed upon. No one considers that vow to be a sign of lack of trust. Its not a far stretch. Mayors enforce the laws of the land, and take action when warranted to keep people safe/. Admins enforce the rules of the forum and take actuion hen warranted to keep the forum community a safe place to participate in. therefor if its distrustful for mods to take an oath vowing to uphold their obligations, it is most likely distrustful to require mayors to take such an oath. And like mayors, prime ministers are also elected officials required to take an oath to uphold the very duties and responsibilities they were elected to do so. So it must also be distrustful of the public to want their prime minister to take an oath of office. After all if they truly elected him to uphold those duties no oath would be necessary right. The oath must only be there because the public can't trust him to do what they jsut elected him to do so.

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Okay whatever

i'm off the PT. I've had enough.I'll explain why to anyone who pm's me. I will however continue to help out on all projects as much as I can, in an unofficial capacity

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Okay whatever, forget this Bs.

i'm off the PT. I've had enough.

I am very sorry that you feel that way.

---

And no Kbird you do not have the right to post in the PT forum. For one thing before the first election it was clearly stated that no one could both be on the pt and the admins/mods. The only exception that has ever beem made to this is spirallysnowy, as it was originally believed she'd only be on e the team for a few weeks before an election would be held to see if she'd stay there.

Since you weren’t removed from your position is an admod at the time of the creation of the pt, as all the pt members were, and you weren’t elected, you clearly aren’t a member of the pt. Only members have the pt have the right to post and take part there. For everyone else there is the V&E forum.

Also the fact that you claim you have the right to post there, shows that there is lack of honesty amongst the admods, as I have been told that you have admitted to other admins that it was wrong for you to have done so. So either they were lying about you saying that, or you are lying now when you claim that you feel you have a right to post in the PT. Either way, someone in a position of power and trust is lying, and that’s not putting forth a good image of the admins.

I have been told by two different admins:

Keith admits he made a mistake posting in the PT forum.

Keith has said it was wrong for him to have posted there

Once again, I am very sorry that you feel that way. And I would respectfully remind you that DJ himself is also an exception to this rule which you seem to think is so hard and fast. The separation is, at best, murky, at this time. I would wonder, given the contents of this thread, as to whether such a demonstrable separation is possible or even justified, under the circumstances. . . .

Meanwhile, as to the protestations of my guilt and culpability, I cannot really comment, as I was not the one who made such an admission to you. To be perfectly honest, I never made such a confession to anyone else, either. What I have said, time and time again, is that I probably shouldn't have posted there, but I felt as if I had no other choice. That isn't exactly the same as admitting I was wrong in doing so; yet, I can see how it might be percieved as such. Further, in no way have I ever been dishonest in this matter: I have always been truthful about my involvement with both the admod team and the project team, the rather tenuous link between the two and the conflict I have felt as the result. Above and beyond my position on either of these teams, I am a member of AVEN, and I do care how I am to be presented to the world. It is only reasonable that I should be able to make my opinions on the matter known.

Perhaps what is needed is a more difinitive method by which the membership of AVEN can feel as if its concerns are being heard by the members of this team.

However, before that can transpire, we need to actually have a team in the first place. . . .

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I think the PT's dropout rate kind of speaks for itself. . .and those were all good people, I might add.
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Why was it decided that the PT Forum should be closed to the general public? That inaccessibility creates an impression ( a false one I am sure) of elitism and it can easily make members feel that they are not wanted/needed.

I realise the VEO is supposed to fulfil members' visibility inclinations but it feels a bir redundant because all the "important" stuff is happening elsewhere. Not a big motivator.

I have not been on AVEN all that long so I realise there might have been good reasons for closing the PT forum but please explain again.

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The Evil Cashew

Cole:

your construing what i am saying. I nowhere stated that i want people who regularly post in the pt. its more that It would be nice to know who is actually active. even if its just every now and then say "hey i am still working on this" or at least show up for votes... cuz voting with 2 poeple doesn't show much.

and i never said that the admod team and pt are the same. YES they are seperate and YES they should remain seperate. What i am saying though is that they are two powers that do need to work together at times and for that there needs to be some trust.

Trip:

I am very sad that you stepped down. You did alot of great work. and this was not the intention of me starting this discussion. I'm sorry and i hope you would come back. THe pt needs poeple like you and hallu.

Yes I do agree we aren't very organized. and unfortunately a large part of that is due to the fact that we are all uber busy.

That's not to say we can't be organized better. We came together quite nicely for the the first pamphlet discussion but technical difficulties prevented us from finishing the matter.

yes this was in part why i started this thread. Some re-organisation needs to be made.

then why complain that members are not being given the chance to voice their opinion on the matter?

because correct me if i am wrong. the debate was started and closed before anyone had the chance to.

I take it you have a lack of trust in your Prime Minister then. After all he/she takes a similar vow when sworn into office. Or do you instead find him promising to uphold the honor bestowed upon herself to be stupid?

I admit i don't know exactly what is said in the vow that the prime minister makes. But my understanding was that it was different. Your asking the mods to vow never to do anything in the pt forum. My prime minister would vow to be a good leader and all that jazz. but its the government that controls all. so they have to have their checks and stuff with the other parts of gov. its not the same organisation as aven. so dont try to compare it.

and for the record. i dislike the current pm so yes i think he is stupid :P and i dont trust him to begin with.

Kbird:

A separation between the two teams is understandable, given the original concept of the PT. However, should both teams be completely divorced?

No. they should not. i understand not to want to have members on both, cuz there could be conflicts of interest and so on. but in trips following of politics.. minsters work in many different groups. so even they are working in different areas. so i think exceptions can be made, like you have done, in extreme circumstances. and you have not abused your power kbird. so i do not understand where the fear that someone might stems from.

spinneret:

Really now. Stop and think. Do you realize how ludicrous a comparison this is?

Besides which, you have it backwards. She's saying that requiring such a vow implies a lack of trust. People should already have trust in those they've elected, non?

thank you. u explained it better than i could.

trips explanation following your post makes sense. but i disagree that aven is organized in the same fashion and that the vows are similar.

~Cashew

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Cole -- it has been the idea in the begining for both to be seperate. And minus 3 posts by Keith who was trying to get attention on some pamplets, it has remained that way. As far as I recall

As far as Keith and the PT forum goes, Keith is the only member of the Admin team who was not voted as an admin. He was appointed their by DJ because he is coauthoring (wiht DJ) on a book about asexuality and it helps add to credibility.

http://www.asexuality.org/discussion/viewtopic.php?p=398764

DJ runs the site. It wouldn't be here without him. For all I know DJ could have given him permission to post in there.

Anyway, there is nothing to say that I won't even post in forums I'm not supposed. There is nothing to say that I won't go psycho one day and ban people I don't like on the board. There is nothing to say that I won't go and edit people's posts to say what I want them to. You know what stops me? Myself. My sense that I was elected to help out the board. My job as an elected person. The fact that I approach admod issues with the same mentality that I approach issues at work. That's what stops me. And if there were ever a time where I thought I couldn't stop myself, I would step down. Because I have this really high streak of selflessness that follows me in all my endevors. Yes, I do have streaks of selfishness in me as does everyone. But in the end, the selfishness wins out. It always has thus far. It's sad to think that people can't trust me.

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I believe that the PT forum was originally created because there was some thought at that time that the amount of input and ideas from the membership at large would become so overwhelming that it would become chaotic.

DJ decided to set aside a controlled environment so that a few elected people could work undisturbed. He wanted to have 11 active PT members but he wanted to leave the admod team intact so that we wouldn't interfere with each other.

This is where the problem originated. There are a couple of factors to consider.

First, and critically important: AVEN's active membership remains very steady at about 100 to 150 people no matter how many thousands appear on the list as registered members. This is to be expected due to a peculiar quirk of human nature. That is about the maximum number of people that a human can identify with as a "tribe" or social group. As new people arrive and become active other ones will gradually drift away. This can't be helped - it's just the way people are made. Larger groups that are forced to remain together tend to develop conflicts and schisms that eventually tear them apart.

The second problem is due to another quirk of human nature.

The vast majority of people don't want to volunteer for positions of responsibility, especially if those positions also require accountability.

The usual percentage of people who will become active volunteers in any given group is approximately 15%. (10% - 20%) I'm not making this up. This is a known phenomenon that volunteer organizers have to deal with on a regular basis.

Do the math.

The admod team needs about 15 to 17 people to keep track of all of the forums and to, hopefully, have at least one admod on duty at all times. We try to juggle our schedules with this in mind.

The Project Team was supposed to contain 11 members, but they couldn't also be admods.

It never worked.

The reality is: The fact that this was extremely unlikely to work was pointed out from the very beginning, but the plan was put into effect despite these warnings.

Approximately a year has passed, and the predicted situation has occured exactly as it was foreseen.

A group of 150 people (using the most generous possible estimate!) CANNOT be expected to provide over 25 dedicated and dependable volunteers - especially when such a high percentage of them are students whose free time is severely limited.

A more accurate and realistic count of the people who might be considered as AVEN's "core" membership can be arrived at by looking at how many people vote in our election polls.

It's a far cry from 150, that much is certain. A person who can't even be bothered to VOTE is NOT going to make a very effective volunteer, so perhaps a more realistic figure would be 50 to 60 active and involved members.

I honestly think that the experiment of making a separate and independent Project Team has been given a very fair trial and plenty of time to prove whether or not it was a good idea.

It seems to have failed.

We had plenty of visibility and outreach projects BEFORE the PT was created, and there was a greater feeling of community spirit because anybody could be involved if and when they wanted to be. Nobody had to pledge themselves to a minimum of 6 months of total dedication to the cause.

What we have now is a spirit of division instead of a spirit of community.

We have a private forum where members can look, but can't post.

(It would be interesting to take a poll and find out how many members actually bother to check that forum. I suspect it is a very small percentage.)

Speaking for myself, I can say that I have only looked in there a few times. It's like a private club with a "members only" sign on the front door, so why would I want to go in?

I think it's time to open that door, remove the access restrictions at the PT forum, and let the membership at large have a say about what is chosen to represent ALL of us. Our outreach projects need to be kept in one place and not split between two or more forums. Contributions from members who may only have an occasional idea should NOT be discouraged by making them feel that their creative ideas will be taken over and changed beyond recognition if they submit them. (This thought is based on the fact that many creative people are quite possesive about their ideas and don't WANT to relinquish all control of them.)

That is my honest opinion. I am proposing it for the good of AVEN as a whole and I certainly don't intend it in ANY way as a criticism of the few PT members who have remained and labored hard at their appointed tasks.

As I said above, people who are willing to volunteer are rare indeed and I think they should be praised for their efforts - not criticized for their failings.

Having AVEN's outreach projects open to unrestricted input from ALL of our members will help prevent situations like the one that has just occurred from happening again. The pressure of being held accountable is not an easy one to bear, and being in an elected position adds even MORE to that pressure by making it feel like a personal betrayal to give up, surrender and disappoint the electors.

I would like to see the current PT members remain as moderators in charge of the PT forum, with the power to move inappropriate posts to other forums just as the other mods can do. If the PT forum is made open so that all members can post if they have a constructive idea, then the current Project Team will become mods by default.

I hope that this might help to heal the artificial division that has been imposed between two groups which SHOULD, for the sake of all of AVEN, be working hand in hand.

It also might make it possible to find enough volunteers to keep AVEN fully functional.

For now, just think about this.

If your responses indicate that it seems like a good idea then we can set up a poll and let the membership decide.

-Greybird

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The Evil Cashew

its worth a shot gbird. its evident that the current system is not wokring like it was planned out to.

edit: there might besome things to hammer out to make this one work. or some agreements to be made ( i just reread your post gbird) i am not sure what theyc ould be. but i expect tehre could be some issues but i still think its a workable idea

edit 2: yes i do know that this post makes me sound hypocritical. i just cant think of any otehr way to fix the problems. so maybe gbirds idea is a good starting point

~Cashew

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its worth a shot gbird. its evident that the current system is not wokring like it was planned out to.

edit: there might besome things to hammer out to make this one work. or some agreements to be made ( i just reread your post gbird) i am not sure what theyc ould be. but i expect tehre could be some issues but i still think its a workable idea

~Cashew

The project team is currently working on a proposal for change that will hopefully be posted tonight for all of aven to vote on.

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Hallucigenia

Greybird, I applaud your suggestions, except the part about the PT becoming mods of the PT forum.

I was elected to do projects, not to moderate anything. The one is not a guarantee of the other. I do not want to become an unelected appointee within an otherwise democratic body of individuals.

And, quite frankly, what with AVENues, AVEN Digest, AVENwiki, and whatever else I'm doing, I just don't think I have enough AVEN time to be a mod as well!

The only way I would accept a position such as you described is if I and whoever else from the PT wanted it ran for it in traditional moderator election style and I won - and if I could unload a few of my other responsibilities onto some other willing volunteer in order to make room for such a duty. I don't know if that's what you have in mind. It would probably just be easier to get an established and experienced existing admod to do it. (After all, without an official select group of PTers who are the only ones that can work on projects, there isn't as much reason any more to separate them from the admod team.)

Sorry to be nitpicky. Other than that, I think your suggestions are very good ones. I remember that math thing about the maximum size of a community - I just don't think I ever quite applied the logic to AVEN before.

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The project team is currently working on a proposal for change that will hopefully be posted tonight for all of aven to vote on.

I look forward to seeing it. (And welcome back, by the way, if your post indeed indicates that you have re-thought your resignation. . . .) I hope that in the coming days we can work together to find the best solution for AVEN and its members, in a spirit of cooperation and trust.

(And, Goonie, to be perfectly clear, I took it upon myself to post in the PT Forum. I did not clear it with anyone before hand; but, neither did I do it lightly. My reasoning is open for anyone to see and, if necessary, take issue with, elsewhere in this, and other, threads. However, until the current discussion, I had thought that the situation had been resolved to everyone's satisfaction. . . . The past has little bearing on the present, except to serve as an example of what has gone before. Today is a different situation than yesterday and, therefore, today I would likely take a different action. . . .)

(And, to Hallu, should we choose to take Nancy's proposal, I can assure you that moderating a forum isn't a terrible imposition; although it does take some time. . . . Spiralling Snowy is already an admod, perhaps she could be persuaded to stay on and perform that function for you, if we choose to go that route, and if she should feel so inclined. This would also serve to provide an instant, available moderator for both teams, the better to communicate with each other -- at once providing for a separation between the two teams and also providing for a greater connection between them. It should also be mentioned, that both teams are here to help and to serve -- each other, as well as the entirety of the board. It only requires that one ask.)

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