Asexual Elitism

[Vampyremage]

I have come to very much value AVEN as a community. It helped me a great deal when I was going through that tumulteous time of working out my sexual and gender identities. Now that I have worked it out, I remain here because of all of the fascinating and often thought provoking discussion that occurs as well as the friends that I have made. I value AVEN as a community and want to see it continue to grow and mature.

Which brings brings me to the topic of asexual elitism. This is, far and away, my number one issue with the AVEN community. Both implicit and explicit, there are some individuals who seem to think that just because many of us are asexual that somehow makes us better. Its not always stated in such blatant terms but comments comparing sexuals to animals and the need for sex as mental illness cannot be taken in any other way. I find this to be largely unnacceptable and, while I believe it is a relatively small minority of the AVEN population that tends to engage in this behaviour, it does concern me that more people are not speaking out against this.

I get it, the culture of sex can be baffling and more than a little confusing. It can be overwhelming for those of us who do not experiene sexual attraction and do not have the desire to engage in sexual activity. I understand that, from an outside perspective, it can appear irrational and the risks can seem to be great. I get the fact that asexuals are treated by many as a joke; something that either doesn't exist, shouldn't be taken seriously or, if they do exist they're a product of mental illness. I get the fact that it can be both hurtful and infuriating to live in a culture that not only rarely accepts our existance, but one which makes sex such a big deal in all aspects of culture. I get all of these because I too am asexual and I have often been just as baffled by the sexual culture and the sexual game as anyone else.

But understanding and acceptance go both ways. Asexuals are different than sexuals but that doesn't make us in any way intrinsically better. There are those sexuals who do engage in sex irresponsibly, hurting those they love and sometimes hurting themselves, but it is not acceptable to stereotype the majority of sexuals based upon the actions and attitudes of the minority any more than it would be acceptable to stereotype asexuals in a similar manner. Being sexual does not make someone any more or less moral than being asexual. Sexual activity is not any more or less moral than non-sexual activity. If one must judge another, judge them by their actions and attitudes not by some arbitrary category that they have been placed into such as sexual or asexual. Its not acceptable to judge asexuals simply because they are asexual so why would anyone assume its acceptble to judge sexuals just because they are sexual? Just because they are the majority rather than the minority? Sorry, that argument doesn't hold any weight.

Then there is the matter of understanding. Yes, it can be difficult to understand the sexual mindset just as it can be difficult for a sexual to understand the asexual mindset. That is, however, no excuse to just throw up your hands and give up. Given enough effort, a basic level of understanding can be reached and to judge before even trying to accept is, once again, no more acceptable than if a sexual were to judge an asexual without making that effort.

All of this should be basic common sense. No one wants to or should be judge based upon some arbitrary category they happen to belong to. Whether that category is a minority or a majority doesn't matter, blatant discrimination and judgement is simply not acceptable. Next time one feels like judgeing someone else ask yourself first, are their actions actually directly harming anyone else? If the answer is no then maybe you should rethink why you're judging that individual and if such a judgement is truly justified.

[Doppel]

Agreed, there is going be people like this in any community sexual or asexual. This is not however limited to asexuals bashing on sexuals or vice versa, I have seen asexuals being elitist against other asexuals, same for sexuals against other sexuals here on AVEN. However I must stress I believe they are the minority, all we can really do is try to educate them which sometimes is as about as effective as beating ones head against a brick wall. I find that people with these sort of views from my own personal observations are mostly new members. They either quickly learn to be tolerant or move on after realising that sort of behavior is generally frowned upon.

I have seen very few long standing members act out like this only a few cases come to mind. Though for the most part I think AVEN is a pretty tolerant community compared to some of the abhorrent stuff I have witnessed outside these walls. Not saying it's acceptable, I don't think it will ever go away completely but we can bloody try our hardest to minimise it.

[Member33070]

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[Vampyremage]

I agree, Doppel, that it is a fairly small minority that seem to be the primary offenders. Its not so much the offenders that bother me as much as the fact that there are very few of us who seem to speak up agains them. All of the mods are wonderful about doing so and there are a handful of the rest of us that try to do so as well. I guess sometimes it just feels like bashing my head up against a brick wall. It just feels so unfortunate when valued members like Skullery end up leaving because of the elitism and discrimination that sometimes goes on against sexuals.

[P is for...]

Agreed, there is going be people like this in any community sexual or asexual. This is not however limited to asexuals bashing on sexuals or vice versa, I have seen asexuals being elitist against other asexuals, same for sexuals against other sexuals here on AVEN. However I must stress I believe they are the minority, all we can really do is try to educate them which sometimes is as about as effective as beating ones head against a brick wall. I find that people with these sort of views from my own personal observations are mostly new members. They either quickly learn to be tolerant or move on after realising that sort of behavior is generally frowned upon.

I have seen very few long standing members act out like this only a few cases come to mind. Though for the most part I think AVEN is a pretty tolerant community compared to some of the abhorrent stuff I have witnessed outside these walls. Not saying it's acceptable, I don't think it will ever go away completely but we can bloody try our hardest to minimise it.

i agree. i haven't been around as long as some here, but the second anniversary of my first post on AVEN came and went a couple of weeks ago. and i'll admit, i've stayed away for long periods of time, for various reasons. but as others wiser than myself have said before me, this place runs in seasons. for a little while, it tends to get overrun with elitists, and then it sorts itself out again. the thing is, hardcore-- and even softcore, heh-- elitists find very little on AVEN to sustain them indefinitely. there are far too many of us 'bad aces' (a badge i wear with pride myself, incidentally) hanging around, lousing up the place by watching porn, making dirty jokes, talking about sex the sex we've had, are having, or wish we were having. we're every bit as much of a goad to the elitists as non-asexuals here are. (sorry. i really, really dislike the word 'sexual' as a noun. it grates on me.) and truthfully, i don't even notice it so much anymore, even when it's running rampant, because it's just so patently absurd and, well, tinfoil hat to me. plus it's the whole reason the Asexual Elitism thread was pinned in the first place. so there's that.

i am, however, aware of the situation that occurred recently, where more than one valued, longstanding member decided to leave more or less permanently because of elitism. (i'm a member of the Leave-In-A-Huff club myself, so i certainly sympathise with the impulse.) i agree wholeheartedly that that's a serious issue. i would submit, though, that it's only one of the reasons valued, longstanding members leave, and perhaps it might be a good idea sometime to examine why that seems to happen with such an astonishing degree of regularity, rather than focusing on one specific issue that's taking center stage right now. in my rarely very humble opinion, AVEN is a machine that runs reasonably well most of the time, but has a few rusty cogs and levers that make the whole thing grind to a halt or make strange, startling noises far more often than any of us would like. it might not be a bad plan to talk about why that is, and how it might be fixed; although i don't harbour any unreasonable expectations for a conversation of that nature.

anyway. i have no actual ideas about new ways to combat elitism here. i suppose i'm firmly in the Ecclesiastes camp at this stage of my life, muttering, 'there is nothing new under the sun' like the curmudgeon i have been since infancy. good luck with all of that.

[Janus the Fox]

Yeah... I'm starting to see that often in Welcome and Q&A posts a lot. The language used in some of them suggest that they may in fact be trolls, but that's the pattern I'm seeing. I donno but a more stricter rule should made in said posts, as Doppel said educate the offender, but if it continues, stern warnings and possible bannings should be made. I see this a bit in other sites with bisexual elitism.

[BaronTheCat]

Very good post & I agree with you.

Though I wonder if what I say sometimes can be interpreted as elitist.

I think there's a difference between personal feelings and moral/political/whatever opinions. E.g. I transitioned from female to male some years ago. I totaly hated my female body. Still, that doesn't mean I look down upon or disrespect those who are or want to be female-bodied. I don't consider men superior to women. It's the same with sexuality. Sexuality, and heterosexuality in particular is hard for me to understand on an emotional level, but I don't look down upon people or find them disgusting just because they like something I don't.

So there ought be a way of being honest about one's own feelings without disrespecting others', esp. since this is a forum where asexuality, sexuality and gender are discussed. I guess it can be hard to know where the line is sometimes.

[Member33070]

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[P is for...]

I think the result of any conversation about how to fix AVEN would just end up being a bash-fest. Talking about all the things that are broken and that don't work right, making suggestions of how to have members behave, only to have a new round of n00bs come in who don't know any of the rules and muck up the place. It's not really something fixable, I'm coming to accept. Short of using the Mighty Banhammer on every single person who says something elitist...which isn't going to help anything.

i think that's quite sage, Birdwing, and i can't find any fault with it whatsoever. i think you're right; AVEN, like everything else in the world, is fundamentally flawed, and so deeply that no one can pinpoint where or how to fix it. but that doesn't mean it's irredeemable (not that i mean to suggest you implied that). we all choose to be here, and in choosing, we accept a certain set of circumstances. none of us is constrained to be here. we may all leave at any time. and i guess accepting a certain amount of ridiculousness and stupidity on all fronts is part and parcel of the decision to stay.

i'm glad you came back, by the way. i lurked a bit in my extended absence, and you've always been a breath of fresh air. pleased to meet you, Birdwing. i'm P.

[Sally]

I'm inclined to think the sexual bashing is done mostly by people who have just discovered/decided they are asexual, and need to dump their emotions about not fitting into the world that they find around them. I'd also bet that they calm down later, possibly when they're no longer on AVEN so we can tell that they have -- either that or they get driven away when some of us to tell them very plainly to stop disrespecting sexuals. It seems inevitable that AVEN serves that purpose for them. Then there is a smaller group who are close to being trolls, who are either plain rude or just want to rile everyone up.

The key, to me, is expressing a dislike of the act of sex but not of all people who want and have sex. Often it seems that people have difficulty distinguishing between activity and actor. I don't understand why some people love to play golf but that doesn't give me the right to make nasty remarks about golfers.

Then there's the difference between understanding and respect. It really doesn't matter whether you understand why someone likes or dislikes something. what matters is that you respect their right to do so and don't give them shit for their feelings or orientation. Maybe that's what AVEN has to work on: the need for asexuals on AVEN to show sexuals respect.

[Member33070]

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[Lady Girl]

Thanks so much Vamp! And to everyone who does make this a great place to be and make friends, thank you. Asexuals can feel isolated in this world, and so can some of us who are not asexual (that would be me). I have no place and no one to talk to about my personal life but here. It's kind of a big deal to me, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one on this site in that kind of situation.

Thanks again to everyone for including me, it means a lot. Sally, Skulls, PiF, Vamp, Birdie, Fae, Maya, Pamcakes, Olivier, Henny, Blue Diamond, Percival, Cashew, Lucinda, You are Yummy, Beach girl, and so many more, thank you guys SO MUCH!

[Sally]

for everyone. Bird and P, welcome back.

[P is for...]

for everyone. Bird and P, welcome back.

thank you so much, Sally; and may i take the opportunity to say that i have always admired your steadfast devotion to this wretched, wretched place? the rest of us rabble may come and go; but you are, in a real sense, AVEN royalty. don't think we haven't noticed. your forbearance is legendary and unparalleled. i have no idea how you manage to put up with as much as you do; perhaps you ought to write a pamphlet for the rest of us someday...

[Lady Girl]

for everyone. Bird and P, welcome back.

thank you so much, Sally; and may i take the opportunity to say that i have always admired your steadfast devotion to this wretched, wretched place? the rest of us rabble may come and go; but you are, in a real sense, AVEN royalty. don't think we haven't noticed. your forbearance is legendary and unparalleled. i have no idea how you manage to put up with as much as you do; perhaps you ought to write a pamphlet for the rest of us someday...

100% agreed!!! To Sally...

[Sally]

for everyone. Bird and P, welcome back.

thank you so much, Sally; and may i take the opportunity to say that i have always admired your steadfast devotion to this wretched, wretched place? the rest of us rabble may come and go; but you are, in a real sense, AVEN royalty. don't think we haven't noticed. your forbearance is legendary and unparalleled. i have no idea how you manage to put up with as much as you do; perhaps you ought to write a pamphlet for the rest of us someday...

:redface: :redface: :redface: P, you must have missed a few really nasty posts I've made. I even have the honor of having been warned once, which didn't have much effect, I must admit. What I was told by my schoolteachers eons ago is still the case: I don't take direction well.

[P is for...]

for everyone. Bird and P, welcome back.

thank you so much, Sally; and may i take the opportunity to say that i have always admired your steadfast devotion to this wretched, wretched place? the rest of us rabble may come and go; but you are, in a real sense, AVEN royalty. don't think we haven't noticed. your forbearance is legendary and unparalleled. i have no idea how you manage to put up with as much as you do; perhaps you ought to write a pamphlet for the rest of us someday...

:redface: :redface: :redface: P, you must have missed a few really nasty posts I've made. I even have the honor of having been warned once, which didn't have much effect, I must admit. What I was told by my schoolteachers eons ago is still the case: I don't take direction well.

indeed, Sally, i must have missed that; and if you hadn't told me, i never would have suspected a thing.

i was told i don't take direction well either. perhaps that's why i like you.

[The Great WTF]

Thanks for this, vampyremage. If I'd posted something like this it probably would have gotten all ragey and garbled. I admit to being (maybe a little too) quick to call elitists out and getting into a few nasty debates about it. I find it sickening that my siblings (many of whom border on over-sexed) can be totally accepting on my asexuality but there are asexual people who are downright hateful of sexuals. It seems backwards.

Don't get me started on the 'you're not asexual because of A, B, or C' people.

[Riven]

I agree wholeheartedly Mage. Kudos to you.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

Hi Mage. I fucking love this post. It is absolutely perfect, and touches on all of the relevant points. It needs to be plastered somewhere very visibile, I feel. Post of the year.

I'm one of those who has "acted out" in the past on this subject. And I could go on and on about stuff and add to it. But Mage covered it.

I've felt the hurt here, and I know other people who have, too. I know people struggle with lots of emotions, being asexual or having to deal with rude sexuals out in the world. But let me tell you, it's not the fact that these people are sexual that is making things tough for asexuals. It's that there are people in the world who are rude who just happen to be sexual. They'll treat you like crap because they're rude. You're different, and they're rude, so they point it out. And, I've learned, it works the other way around as well. Some asexuals are rude, and are going to treat me differently because I'm not and they're rude.

I'm over being upset about it personally, but I worry for any other folks who are still feeling the hurt or who might not be here yet who will in the future. There's just no justification for elitism. None.

Walk a mile in mine and you might see that what you think is elitism is just a turtle shell that's evolved out of self-preservation.

It's not very common on dating/social networks for the topic of Asexuality to come up, and if it's a dating site, the vast majority of messages from Sexuals will be something to the effect that it's a mental illness. Or, my personal favorite, "You can't be Human and Asexual- humans are wired for sex and that's just the way it is."

It's not that they are being rude, because they almost never have any idea any asexuals are in the room. It's just their own form of Elitism. And since there are many more of them than there are of us, any asexual foolishly standing up to it will get NUKED.

Does the opposite ever happen here on AVEN?

No. Not even close. If I'm wrong, please post citations.

Sexuals even have a folder available to them here to discuss their issues. I don't read it, because I suspect anything I'd post there would be either called elitist or get ignored. Maybe I'm wrong to think that way, but I rarely see any signs that give me much hope of any other outcome.

So talk to me. If you want help knocking down walls, words are the tools.

[P is for...]

It's not very common on dating/social networks for the topic of Asexuality to come up, and if it's a dating site, the vast majority of messages from Sexuals will be something to the effect that it's a mental illness. Or, my personal favorite, "You can't be Human and Asexual- humans are wired for sex and that's just the way it is."

...

Does the opposite ever happen here on AVEN?

and the opposite would be what? saying, 'you can't be human and sexual'? if that's the case, then, no, that doesn't happen here, and it never should.

if you mean the opposite is, 'you can be human and asexual'-- that happens all the time here, and citations aren't necessary to prove it.

i'm sorry you've had such a rough time of it, i truly am. but i'm not about to make allowances for bad behaviour simply because someone's been treated badly elsewhere. justice tempered with mercy is one thing. granting free reign to retribution is quite another.

[Vampyremage]

ZenPlacebo, I think that many asexuals have been there. I am not I'm any way trying to mitigate the difficulties asexuals face in an overly sexualizef society. I am asexual myself and I have been there. I agree completely that it sucks and I am not trying to justify the hurtful words some sexuals speak, intentional or otherwise.

However, the way do deal with such ignorance and discrimination is not through more ignorance and discrimination. Understanding and respect must go both ways and often, though granted not always, the words some sexuals speak are spoken put of ignorance and not with the intent to wound. How will those individuals ever come to understand the hurt their words can sometimes cause if the first reaction if the asexual in question is to try to turn their words back upon them and wound themselves?

[Member33070]

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[The Pofessional]

I've always thought the elitism was a sort of mindless lashing out. I used to be a bit elitist myself (thankfully, now long cured). I think some people come here angry, more than anything else. To go through a portion of life thinking you're gross or broken, and being told so by people. It's just a way of justifying themselves, I think.

Just my two cents. By the way, amazing post from Mage. I think you really hit the nail on the head. Looks like Sori's going to have to buy your lunch again xD

[5_♦♣]

I tend to miss the drama (so to speak) more often than not. And on the occasion that I do notice, I have nothing to say that hadn't already been said. (With the exception of one thread in Q&A, back in December I think it was).

[bromance]

Agreed. I can't stand the elitists. Not only does it alienate our sexual members, it also alienates some aces here.

[samepage1]

I'm inclined to think the sexual bashing is done mostly by people who have just discovered/decided they are asexual, and need to dump their emotions about not fitting into the world that they find around them. I'd also bet that they calm down later, possibly when they're no longer on AVEN so we can tell that they have -- either that or they get driven away when some of us to tell them very plainly to stop disrespecting sexuals. It seems inevitable that AVEN serves that purpose for them.

I think this is an extremely important point. I want there to be someplace that the despairing, frustrated, and disillusioned can unload. And if not here then where? I don't want people to feel that it's simply not acceptable for them to feel a certain way about sex and sexual people when they've been subjected to a world that is unacceptably ignorant of their asexuality, and they've only been trying the best they could to make sense of their world and how they fit in it. That's bound to lead to some messed-up viewpoints. We're only human, after all.

I just hope that we can find some way through exhibiting understanding and acceptance towards them to nurture in them acceptance and understanding about which they come here expressing vitriol.

[Batman's Ace]

Not understanding + Asshole = Saying bad things.

This. Applies in so many ways. Excellent explanation, Birdwing.

Like AceofClubs, I tend to miss the drama. I almost never seem to see the hate-filled posts that people complain about and that drive wonderful people away from AVEN. I know they're there, but somehow I've managed to miss most of those topics. Part of what frustrates me about this, though, is that when I do see nasty posts, I don't always know how people are going to react--who's gonna be up in arms and who's gonna shrug it off and who's gonna get hurt. The little I've seen could very well have been personal attacks, and I wouldn't know, because unless someone's made specific and regular mention of exactly how they're oriented, I don't tend to remember. I just don't think about it. And that makes it quite possible that I've shrugged something off and skipped responding when someone actually needed more support. That thought is very upsetting. The people who I know are sexuals on here are awesome, give good advice, and are amazingly patient with so much cluelessness surrounding them (I have definitely noticed that it's not just the aces who have to explain the same things over and over). They encourage us; we need to encourage them. I'm a bit lost on how to help with that, though. How can I show that I accept and support the sexuals on here if I can't seem to recognize when they're being cut down, or just don't see it? Very frustrating.

[Lucinda]

The genesis for this thread was a post by a member (in the DSM thread) that referred to people who misuse sex and betray loved ones ... the term "sexual" was not even used nor was it stated that the "people" referred to a vast majority of the population. If a "sexual" person made the same comment, would you accuse them of engaging in asexual elitism?

In reference to the DSM, there was a time when a partner could call for their spouse to be diagnosed because the partner had a problem. The health and happiness of the spouse was not taken into consideration, only that of the partner. The person without a problem was medicalized or betrayed through stress and pressure until they were indeed distressed and could be considered disordered. Where is the "love" in that? Both men and women have come to this board admitting that they have encouraged their spouse to seek and take prescription pills without regard to the potential negative side effects. Their desire for sex trumps the possible risks to others. One man who claimed to be a therapist bemoaned the fact that his wife's doctor took her off HRT because of the cancer risks to her. He felt her physician should take his needs into consideration first. It doesn't take a "sexual" to see that his attitude towards her was probably the biggest sexual turn-off, not the lack of HRT.

To claim that a poster or posters are engaging in asexual elitism by putting words in their mouth that they are referring to the "vast majority of people who enjoy engaging in sexual activity" serves what purpose? To bolster your argument? To silence them? Wouldn't it be easier to actually listen to them and discover their motivations and experiences that lead to their statements? Wouldn't it be in the name of fairness to not base your argument, your disapproval, and your judgment on things they did not say?

Are the people who are challenging the DSM engaging in asexual elitism? Should "asexuals" be let off the hook if their level of interest, desire, and arousal don't measure up to some benchmark, but "sexuals" should not?

Lucinda

[Member33070]

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